Injury Report: Out of Town Thread Part XXVIII

Status
Not open for further replies.

Tighthead

Registered User
Nov 9, 2016
3,612
3,832
One without Price , one without Weber and one with 96 pts ( How many time a NHL team didn't make the playoffs with those numbers ?).
Both players are in their downside . To me i would choose Weber between the 2 , because Subban is/was a flashy player but nothing else while Weber is still a big presence but also a mentor , a "father" that will still contribute once he'll be less effective on the ice . He's the guy that you want to be around the team and i wouldn't be surprised to see him in a management role after his career . Subban is more of a public face you will see in the medias ; a kind of modern clown that will replace Don Cherry :laugh:

Subban is flashy and nothing else?

Seriously - no skill, no impact, just flash? So his entire career is a grift?

You really aren't helping your credibility.
 

Lshap

Hardline Moderate
Jun 6, 2011
27,274
24,845
Montreal
Those are a lot of words to avoid acknowledging that his leadership has had no meaningful impact. So the benefits are invisible because they don't make the team better, but they are critical.

The team has not performed better. The effect of his leadership on the Habs performance is null. There is no less failure than there was before. So we added critical leadership and it did nothing?

If the benefits are tangible, and Weber's leadership is revered and impactful, there should be some visible evidence of how it has helped the team.

At least you didn't talk about Playstation.
But it does have a meaningful impact. It's just not something you and I can measure or see from the outside. I've been part of teams, professional musical groups, business groups and committees -- a good leader makes a huge difference.

Unless you believe a "C" is an honorary title, Weber provides something that no one on our team provides to the same degree. Sorry there's no statistic I can point to.
 

Rapala

Registered User
Mar 29, 2013
38,375
33,245
Montreal
So a lot of talk about Buffalo and Edmonton and their hot starts but given their rosters it's not exactly a huge surprise. The Ducks however...
 

Tighthead

Registered User
Nov 9, 2016
3,612
3,832
But it does have a meaningful impact. It's just not something you and I can measure or see from the outside. I've been part of teams, professional musical groups, business groups and committees -- a good leader makes a huge difference.

Unless you believe a "C" is an honorary title, Weber provides something that no one on our team provides to the same degree. Sorry there's no statistic I can point to.

At no point have I asked for a measurement or statistic, or suggested that ther is one, so that line of argument and the can cease. No need to contrive an apology.

I actually had someone the other day say leadership is a measurable.

I have life experience as well, I haven't lived in a silo. I too have been parts of groups, possibly more than you and often in leadership positions. A good leader can certainly help. But if Weber is such a great leader and leadership is what we needed, why did he have no impact on actually making the team better?

So the C is unassailable? Whoever is the Captain is always the best leader? That sounds like an appeal to authority. People didn't seem to think Patches was a better leader than Gallagher, and you are clearly stating that the C is the final say in that regard.
 

Lshap

Hardline Moderate
Jun 6, 2011
27,274
24,845
Montreal
At no point have I asked for a measurement or statistic, or suggested that ther is one, so that line of argument and the can cease. No need to contrive an apology.

I actually had someone the other day say leadership is a measurable.

I have life experience as well, I haven't lived in a silo. I too have been parts of groups, possibly more than you and often in leadership positions. A good leader can certainly help. But if Weber is such a great leader and leadership is what we needed, why did he have no impact on actually making the team better?

So the C is unassailable? Whoever is the Captain is always the best leader? That sounds like an appeal to authority. People didn't seem to think Patches was a better leader than Gallagher, and you are clearly stating that the C is the final say in that regard.
You keep repeating that Weber's leadership has no impact. What are you basing that on? If the answer includes things like wins, then you're basing your opinion on a measure or statistic. If your answer includes intangibles, then I'd be interested to hear them. I'm sure we both have interesting life experiences and perspectives on the subject.

And yes, a captain is usually the best leader on the team. That's not some silly "Appeal to authority" meme, it's plain obvious and honestly not worth debating. To be extra clear: there are captains who've sucked; there's no evidence Weber is one of them.
 
  • Like
Reactions: jaffy27

Tighthead

Registered User
Nov 9, 2016
3,612
3,832
You keep repeating that Weber's leadership has no impact. What are you basing that on? If the answer includes things like wins, then you're basing your opinion on a measure or statistic. If your answer includes intangibles, then I'd be interested to hear them. I'm sure we both have interesting life experiences and perspectives on the subject.

And yes, a captain is usually the best leader on the team. That's not some silly "Appeal to authority" meme, it's plain obvious and honestly not worth debating. To be extra clear: there are captains who've sucked; there's no evidence Weber is one of them.

You didn't say usually. You said because he wears the C he is the best leader, end of discussion. It isn't a meme, and it is in fact a clear absolute appeal to authority. If you wear the C you provide leadershiop that nobody else can. That was your assertion. I don't know how anything I said can be interpreted as a meme. I don't even understand what you mean by that. I guess you are saying that my argyment is reactionary and thoughtless, derived from crap on the internet? Now you are backing off but your statement was unequivocal.

The team is no better than it was before he arrived. Arguably worse. I don't know the last time we saw a talented player suck for an extended critical period like Drouin did last year. The team pretty much no showed in the last two playoff games against the Rangers. I didn't see any players take a measurable step forward on his arrival. Basically nothing changed.

I am aware that wins would be a measure or a statistic. I see no need for that level of condescension, clearly you do.
 

Lshap

Hardline Moderate
Jun 6, 2011
27,274
24,845
Montreal
You didn't say usually. You said because he wears the C he is the best leader, end of discussion. It isn't a meme, and it is in fact a clear absolute appeal to authority. If you wear the C you provide leadershiop that nobody else can. That was your assertion. I don't know how anything I said can be interpreted as a meme. I don't even understand what you mean by that. I guess you are saying that my argyment is reactionary and thoughtless, derived from crap on the internet? Now you are backing off but your statement was unequivocal.

The team is no better than it was before he arrived. Arguably worse. I don't know the last time we saw a talented player suck for an extended critical period like Drouin did last year. The team pretty much no showed in the last two playoff games against the Rangers. I didn't see any players take a measurable step forward on his arrival. Basically nothing changed.

I am aware that wins would be a measure or a statistic. I see no need for that level of condescension, clearly you do.
Rather than create arguments that no one is making, I suggest you read my posts again. I asked you what you were basing your opinion on. You seem to have gone to town on this straightforward question and taken it as an insult: "Reactionary and thoughtless, derived from crap on the internet""Condescension". I have no idea how you went from here to there.

Next time, feel free to ask me what I mean rather than tell me what I mean.

Here it is again: I said Weber is the best leader on our team. I also said that captains usually are the best leader on their teams. Two different situations, two statements that are pretty accurate. I said leadership has value beyond the numbers. You specifically said you weren't basing your opinion on a measure or stat. Great. I'm still waiting for an example.
 

Tighthead

Registered User
Nov 9, 2016
3,612
3,832
Rather than create arguments that no one is making, I suggest you read my posts again. I asked you what you were basing your opinion on. You seem to have gone to town on this straightforward question and taken it as an insult: "Reactionary and thoughtless, derived from crap on the internet""Condescension". I have no idea how you went from here to there.

Next time, feel free to ask me what I mean rather than tell me what I mean.

Here it is again: I said Weber is the best leader on our team. I also said that captains usually are the best leader on their teams. Two different situations, two statements that are pretty accurate. I said leadership has value beyond the numbers. You specifically said you weren't basing your opinion on a measure or stat. Great. I'm still waiting for an example.

You said Weber is the best leader as evidenced by the C. That is a clear appeal to authority and somehow I am accused of making memes, which are reactionary and thoughtless and circulated on the net. Now you are saying usually but your statement on Weber was absolute. "Unless you believe a "C" is an honorary title, Weber provides something that no one on our team provides to the same degree." So if you don't think the Captain is the best leader it is an honorary title. No usually, no grey area there.

Telling me that a win is a statistic is condescending. Do you consider it illuminating?

The meme accusation was both condescending and nonsensical.

Funny that you say leadership is invisible to fans, but profess knowledge that he is a better leader than Price.

I explained what I see that shows no impact of the influx of leadership you say he brought. You ignored that. All the talk of stats is just a red herring because you know the team is the same pile of crap it was before he arrived.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • Like
Reactions: True Tick and Tin

Lshap

Hardline Moderate
Jun 6, 2011
27,274
24,845
Montreal
You said Weber is the best leader as evidenced by the C. That is a clear appeal to authority and somehow I am accused of making memes, which are reactionary and thoughtless and circulated on the net. Now you are saying usually but your statement on Weber was absolute. "Unless you believe a "C" is an honorary title, Weber provides something that no one on our team provides to the same degree." So if you don't think the Captain is the best leader it is an honorary title. No usually, no grey area there.

Telling me that a win is a statistic is condescending. Do you consider it illuminating?

The meme accusation was both condescending and nonsensical.

Funny that you say leadership is invisible to fans, but profess knowledge that he is a better leader than Price.

I explained what I see that shows no impact of the influx of leadership you say he brought. You ignored that. All the talk of stats is just a red herring because you know the team is the same pile of crap it was before he arrived.
A lot of words about me and my post.

No words about Weber’s leadership.

I’ll repeat my original point: The impact of leadership is a dead-end debate. Unless you believe leadership is directly tied to wins — which we agree isn’t the case — we have no way to see or measure it. Toews was considered a great leader; is he now a bad leader because his team sucks? Obviously it’s his team that’s changed, not him.

Everyone agrees that leadership has value, so is there any basis for believing Weber’s leadership lacks that value?

I asked. I asked again. I still haven’t received any answer.

EDIT: I'm off to work with one of those professional groups I mentioned I was part of. I'm not the director in this group, but I'm in a de facto position of leadership. Despite your misreading of my message, I think this is a cool discussion and worth thinking about, which I will. Have a nice weekend.
 

PaulD

Time for a new GM !
Feb 4, 2016
28,745
15,805
Dundas
On the topic of the Canes, since we can’t talk about current NHLers in the former Habs thread... former Hab Aho has 3 points so far in 8 games averaging almost 19 minutes a night.

In all seriousness, his possession numbers are awesome but he has had no puck luck at all.
and they are winning without his scoring touch.......wait till his bad luck runs out
 

PaulD

Time for a new GM !
Feb 4, 2016
28,745
15,805
Dundas
Rather than create arguments that no one is making, I suggest you read my posts again. I asked you what you were basing your opinion on. You seem to have gone to town on this straightforward question and taken it as an insult: "Reactionary and thoughtless, derived from crap on the internet""Condescension". I have no idea how you went from here to there.

Next time, feel free to ask me what I mean rather than tell me what I mean.

Here it is again: I said Weber is the best leader on our team. I also said that captains usually are the best leader on their teams. Two different situations, two statements that are pretty accurate. I said leadership has value beyond the numbers. You specifically said you weren't basing your opinion on a measure or stat. Great. I'm still waiting for an example.
You are making some great points.

Weber is a great captain. A natural.
 
  • Like
Reactions: the

jaffy27

From Russia wth Pain
Nov 18, 2007
24,980
21,984
Orleans
I think we'll be like...10th in the conference, 5th or 6th in the division. No higher than 5th, though.
It really depends on the growth of the kids, our success will go through Suzuki, Fleury and Poehling, and of course, the continuing progress of KK

Major fail on Bergevin for allowing it to come to this......

we finish 8th or 9th
 

sampollock

Registered User
Jun 7, 2008
38,592
18,676
in my home
Funny, I will say this, when PK was moved the world shook, many were mad, with reason ,

but PK now finds himself traded again, and not playing well, MB got rid of his attitude... fat head
 

CrAzYNiNe

who could have predicted?
Jun 5, 2003
11,748
2,889
Montreal
Funny, I will say this, when PK was moved the world shook, many were mad, with reason ,

but PK now finds himself traded again, and not playing well, MB got rid of his attitude... fat head

Years later, you're right, it's not looking to bad to have gotten rid of him as injuries mount and his performance has dipped. On the other hand Weber is also showing signs of slowing down and that the game is looking to quickly pass him by. Good news: should he retire, the Habs are free of his cap problems (edit: not quite free, but less effected. I will explain below what I found on this site) that will likely bury the Preds. All is fair in love and war.

The penalty for Nashiville:
If he retires at the end of the year, he will cost Nashville 4.1M a year on the cap for the next 6 years
If he retires after the 20-21 season, he will cost Nashville 4.91M for the next 5 years
If he retires after the 21-22 season, he will cost Nashville 6.14M for the next 4 years
If he retires after the 22-23 season, he will cost Nashville 8.91M for the next 3 years

etc. The way it works is Nashville will be penalized 24.57M whether it be one year in 25-26 if he retires, or as shown above over 6 years if he retires at the end of the year (4.1*6= about 24.57)

Now for the Habs:
They would convince him to stay on the roster until at least the end of 22-23. They have a bit of a backwards situation. The more he plays, the less they will be penalized. Retiring at the end of the year would put the habs on the hook for 6 years at 762k, so a total of 4.572M, The next year it will drop to 5 years at 543k or 2.715M total.

Essentially, the Habs will find a way to keep him on the roster or LTIR until at least 23-24 where the Habs will no longer be penalized, but Nashville would be hit with 8.19M a year for 3 straight years. Ouch.
 
Last edited:

JSR 56

Registered User
Dec 18, 2017
301
292
Montreal
Funny, I will say this, when PK was moved the world shook, many were mad, with reason ,

but PK now finds himself traded again, and not playing well, MB got rid of his attitude... fat head
Is it because he’s black or attitude? Roy had attitude and actually bailed on his team. Chelios had attitude. Ovechkin has attitude. Both Kanes have attitude.
Dryden and Messier have sat out
Attitude is only a problem when the team is losing and a way to scape goat someone
 
  • Like
Reactions: True Tick and Tin

jaffy27

From Russia wth Pain
Nov 18, 2007
24,980
21,984
Orleans
You keep repeating that Weber's leadership has no impact. What are you basing that on? If the answer includes things like wins, then you're basing your opinion on a measure or statistic. If your answer includes intangibles, then I'd be interested to hear them. I'm sure we both have interesting life experiences and perspectives on the subject.

And yes, a captain is usually the best leader on the team. That's not some silly "Appeal to authority" meme, it's plain obvious and honestly not worth debating. To be extra clear: there are captains who've sucked; there's no evidence Weber is one of them.
Some will point to his -5 in an elimination game or the fact that his stare to the opposition is not coming up in the win column......like that ever had anything to do with it lol

The stat on his leadership come from the men that he has led in battle......and we all know what the answer is to that one.....

alas......some diehard know it alls will try to debunk this proof with their own analysis from their vast experience of leadership roles in pressure pact environments.

To inspire, earn and give respect on an everyday basis is a difficult trait to acquire.....Weber, based on his peers, has this trait
 

jaffy27

From Russia wth Pain
Nov 18, 2007
24,980
21,984
Orleans
Is it because he’s black or attitude? Roy had attitude and actually bailed on his team. Chelios had attitude. Ovechkin has attitude. Both Kanes have attitude.
Dryden and Messier have sat out
Attitude is only a problem when the team is losing and a way to scape goat someone

bunch of SC winners and HOF’s and legends vs PK......lol

I’m sure it’s because he’s black :facepalm:.....one team drafts, develops and signs him only to figure out 7yrs later.....holy f***, he’s black!!!!

meanwhile, Habs keep drafting black players

did Poile not see Subbans skin colour when trading for him??

or maybe it’s just something else???

racism is alive and well in the world, believe me, I know, and it’s against all colours......I could comment even further but I’ll stop there.

Subban was not traded because of his race.....at least this is of my opinion.
 

Tighthead

Registered User
Nov 9, 2016
3,612
3,832
Some will point to his -5 in an elimination game or the fact that his stare to the opposition is not coming up in the win column......like that ever had anything to do with it lol

The stat on his leadership come from the men that he has led in battle......and we all know what the answer is to that one.....

alas......some diehard know it alls will try to debunk this proof with their own analysis from their vast experience of leadership roles in pressure pact environments.

To inspire, earn and give respect on an everyday basis is a difficult trait to acquire.....Weber, based on his peers, has this trait

Great - he is a leader.

It hasn't done Sweet Fanny Adams for the team.

I thought that after Pat Tillman it became gauche to use war metaphors for sports?
 

Mrb1p

PRICERSTOPDAPUCK
Dec 10, 2011
87,761
53,481
Citizen of the world
bunch of SC winners and HOF’s and legends vs PK......lol

I’m sure it’s because he’s black :facepalm:.....one team drafts, develops and signs him only to figure out 7yrs later.....holy ****, he’s black!!!!

meanwhile, Habs keep drafting black players

did Poile not see Subbans skin colour when trading for him??

or maybe it’s just something else???

racism is alive and well in the world, believe me, I know, and it’s against all colours......I could comment even further but I’ll stop there.

Subban was not traded because of his race.....at least this is of my opinion.
Tbh Subban is going to the HOF and a first ballot one too.
 

loudi94

Master of my Domain
Jul 8, 2003
8,507
1,533
Alberta
Is it because he’s black or attitude? Roy had attitude and actually bailed on his team. Chelios had attitude. Ovechkin has attitude. Both Kanes have attitude.
Dryden and Messier have sat out
Attitude is only a problem when the team is losing and a way to scape goat someone
The players you mentioned do/did have attitude. Only E. Kane hasn't won a Cup/Smythe and Chelios a Smythe. All of these players have had their detractors. Messier is hated in Vancouver, Dryden had a HOF team in front of him, "Echangez Roy", Chelly got traded in large part to attitude, etc.

PK is polarizing. Loved him in Montreal, don't think much of him as a $9M player now. Do I think all the off ice stuff makes him a better player? Probably not.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad

-->