Out of Town Thread - Part IX

[PaulD]

Seems hard to compare who wins a trade based on team performance because there are always other moving parts.

True . But we debate who won and lost anyways . So having said that its not a mathematical equation we can only form opinions.

You make a trade to improve your team. Neither team really improved or digressed. So I say the RESULTS/REWARDS of the trade (to date) on their clubs are minimal at best. "a wash" IMO


Called it wash on the day of the trade. Seen nothing since to tip the scales.

Both teams gained and lost a great Dman.

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

My apologies. If forgot how sensitive you are on this player.

Ill "shut up" on it. and you might try lightening the **** up .

Actually, again, instead of painting reality to your whims, realize that I react this way, whether it has to do with Subban or not, to anyone who uses that tactic.

Want me to show you examples that have nothing to do with Subban and in which I react exactly the same after someone put words in my mouth??

It's not about Subban. It's about you being too childish and prideful to either give up or find better arguments and instead you use this very lame tactic.

 

[Deluded Puck]

Im looking at the teams before and after "the trade"

Neither one improved. Neither one declined.

The needle never moved. That equals a wash.

Which player you prefer is another subject.

The needle moved for Nashville. Never been past round 2 or won a presidents trophy prior to the trade.

Montreal haven’t won a single playoff round in the meantime.

Only a cup finals appearance was going to justify that trade.

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

True . But we debate who won and lost anyways . So having said that its not a mathematical equation we can only form opinions.

You make a trade to improve your team. Neither team really improved or digressed. So I say the RESULTS/REWARDS of the trade to date their clubs is too small to measure. "a wash" IMO


Called it wash on the day of the trade. Seen nothing since to tip the scales.

Both great players.

How did Nashville not improve?? They've went further in both the reg in terms of points, differential and in the playoffs where they never went past the second round with Weber???????

And in the case of the Habs, they have yet to reach the same heights with Weber than they did with Subban.

Keep repeating your BS. Ill keep rectifying it.

 

[PaulD]

Actually, again, instead of painting reality to your whims, realize that I react this way, whether it has to do with Subban or not, to anyone who uses that tactic.

Want me to show you examples that have nothing to do with Subban and in which I react exactly the same after someone put words in my mouth??

It's not about Subban. It's about you being too childish and prideful to either give up or find better arguments and instead you use this very lame tactic.

Im not arguing. Thats what you do.

I have given my opinion that the trade has been a wash for some time now.

It never sits well with you.

You also have a tendency to be arrogant. But you wear it well.

Cheers.

 

[jaffy27]

Lol.......this place is starting to remind me of this place

 

[417]

Interesting debate going back and forth on "THE" trade...

All in all, way too much time has been spent dissecting every angle of this trade.

I'd have never done it personally and I still feel it's a trade that had nothing to do with hockey, however..

It'll go down as arguably the most over-hyped trade in recent memory.

 

[jaffy27]

The needle moved for Nashville. Never been past round 2 or won a presidents trophy prior to the trade.

Montreal haven’t won a single playoff round in the meantime.

Only a cup finals appearance was going to justify that trade.

So now the goal is to make a cup final.....interesting

And they’ve regressed since

 

[WeThreeKings]

100% BS! See snap shot below of the post you replied to (post #949). How can I edit and change the sign in your own post reply? I caught you red handed on this one. You are the one being disingenuous trying to sagest something that don't exist. I said Kravtsov = Romanov. I even clarified it after you misread it and you are still in disbelieve.

Kravtsov "easily" better than Romanov? I disagree. I think this is close either way. You cherry picked one player vs player, got any more you think is "way off" ??

I didn't suggest you changed the sign. I said, whether the sign is < or = the evaluation is off.

Kravtsov is better than Romanov.
Lundkvist is better than Olofsson.
Skjei is better than Kulak quite substantially.

And again. If the evaluations are completely correct. It still is irrelevant because the Rangers are a mediocre team with a mediocre future. There's nothing to be happy about if we are marginally better than them.

 

[PaulD]

How did Nashville not improve?? They've went further in both the reg in terms of points, differential and in the playoffs where they never went past the second round with Weber???????



And in the case of the Habs, they have yet to reach the same heights with Weber than they did with Subban.

Keep repeating your BS. Ill keep rectifying it.

This has been done to death. Rectifying. LMAO !

I Watch the teams play. Thats where I formed my opinion.

Preds lost in fourth round. Yep. Then went out in second round.

Habs have missed the playoffs with Weber and with PK.

Habs have went out in first round with Weber and with PK.

Trade has been a wash in my opinion. Down the road their play on the ice may tip the scales one way or the other. One thing is for sure. Your posts wont.

I at least say the two players are equal . Give me some points for that would you oh wise one. Must have burned your ass when Team Canada made Weber a top player and had no ice time for the great Subban.

How did you "rectify" that one?

I know you are the smartest guy on the board. So I may have to concede on your favorite player. Some day.

 

[Frank Drebin]

Who am I missing in terms of the smallest players in the NHL?

Gaudreau: 5'-9" / 157 Lbs
Byron: 5'-9" / 161 Lbs
Keller: 5'-10" / 170 Lbs
Mete: 5'-9" / 183 Lbs
Yamamoto: 5'-8" / 154 Lbs
Krug: 5'-9" / 185 Lbs
Marchand: 5'-9" / 181 Lbs
Arvidsson: 5'-9" / 180 Lbs
Spurgeon: 5'-9" 168 Lbs
Johnson: 5'-8" 183 Lbs
Atkinson: 5'-8" / 179 Lbs
Sheary: 5'-8" / 175 Lbs
Zuccarello: 5'-8" / 179 Lbs
Marchessault: 5'-9" / 174 Lbs
Gallagher: 5'-9" / 181 Lbs

Grimaldi 5'6" 180

 

[PaulD]

Lol.......this place is starting to remind me of this place

Love that movie. Know every line.

 

[overlords]

Love that movie. Know every line.

Do you converse with the almighty, or is your father a ghost?
In order to find his equal, an Irishman is forced to talk with God.

(figures that in a movie all about Scots the best character is an Irish ;o )

 

[LaP]

Im looking at the teams before and after "the trade"

Neither one improved. Neither one declined.

The needle never moved. That equals a wash.

Which player you prefer is another subject.

If you look at this year only yeah. But you don't evaluate a trade based on half a season and some games. One could argue that since the trade was made Nashville went to the scf and lost in the 2nd round a 7 games series against a really tough opponent that is considered a very serious Stanley Cup contender. We missed the playoffs once and lost in the 1st round against a very week opponent on the verge of doing a rebuild cause they sucked too much. And don't get me started with NYR played well (some people think they did). That's not true at all they really sucked very hard in that series we just sucked more.

Now i'm not saying all of this happened because of the trade. I mean Price sucked last year and the offense did in the playoffs the previous year. Just that saying things remained the same for both teams is not really true so far.

Even tough i think we will eventually lose the trade because of the age difference (have been saying this since day 1) it's still too early to fully evaluate the trade. I mean had we kept Recchi and tried to win back then the LeClair trade would not look as bad today since Recchi retired well after LeClair did and had at least one good season after LeClair retired. Anything can happen. But for now we must consider what happened so far and what can be realistically predicted for the future and things look better for Nashville than us right now even though it could change.

 

[Habs Halifax]

I didn't suggest you changed the sign. I said, whether the sign is < or = the evaluation is off.

Kravtsov is better than Romanov.
Lundkvist is better than Olofsson.
Skjei is better than Kulak quite substantially.

And again. If the evaluations are completely correct. It still is irrelevant because the Rangers are a mediocre team with a mediocre future. There's nothing to be happy about if we are marginally better than them.

3 players only? Didn't you say it was "A lot" that were off?

- I disagree Kravtsov is better than Romanov. You also said "easily" is better. It's close either way IMO
- Lundkvist = Olofsson. It's close either way
- Skjei has more potential than Kulak but they are producing the same at the moment. I'll give you this one

Rangers are a mediocre team but mediocre future? I think I disagree with the latter. The point is I disagree with anybody saying their youth trumps ours. If your point is our grade A assets won't turn into superstars? Well, I can't argue against that. We have strong Grade A talent with plenty of Grade B ones behind them. None of them are franchise talent. Maybe Kotkaniemi but we will have to wait to see.

I rather have what the Habs have both with our current roster and future potential roster.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Grimaldi 5'6" 180

Pretty heavy for 5'-6" tall. I guess he has to be if he wants to survive.

 

[Frank Drebin]

Even if you keep repeating this, it won't change reality.

Weber will never drive the play like Subban does, while Subban can shutdown the best players in the playoffs so let's not pretend Weber is better defensively.

Because of this and because Subban is 4 years younger, it'll never be a wash.

Funny, but it's all the usual haters calling it a wash. You, Frank, Jaffy, HabsIcing. The usual suspects.

If we don't overrate him like his ravenous fans do, we're haters.

Subban can certainly play an elite shutdown role, he proved that in 2017. But his production suffered.

He's not as good as you think he is. But it's not just Subban that is overrated by Habs fans, we see it with almost all players that were traded away.

Subban will be a 70 point perennial Norris contender once he is removed from his oppressive coach and GM.

Sergachev - first pairing d, capable of 50+points a year

Galchenyuk - 70 point number one C - "you just have to play him there"

Eller basically won the cup for Washington.

Let's not forget the lesser players that were mourned here like Andrighetto, Sekac, DSP, and Greg freaking Pateryn.

It's not just Subban that Habs fans overrate.

 

[PaulD]

If you look at this year only yeah. But you don't evaluate a trade based on half a season and some games. One could argue that since the trade was made Nashville went to the scf and lost in the 2nd round a 7 games series against a really tough opponent that is considered a very serious Stanley Cup contender. We missed the playoffs once and lost in the 1st round against a very week opponent on the verge of doing a rebuild cause they sucked too much. And don't get me started with NYR played well (some people think they did). That's not true at all they really sucked very hard in that series we just sucked more.

Now i'm not saying all of this happened because of the trade. I mean Price sucked last year and the offense did in the playoffs the previous year. Just that saying things remained the same for both teams is not really true so far.

Even tough i think we will eventually lose the trade because of the age difference (have been saying this since day 1) it's still too early to fully evaluate the trade. I mean had we kept Recchi and tried to win back then the LeClair trade would not look as bad today since Recchi retired well after LeClair did and had at least one good season after LeClair retired. Anything can happen. But for now we must consider what happened so far and what can be realistically predicted for the future and things look better for Nashville than us right now even though it could change.

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

This has been done to death. Rectifying. LMAO !

I Watch the teams play. Thats where I formed my opinion.

Preds lost in fourth round. Yep. Then went out in second round.

Habs have missed the playoffs with Weber and with PK.

Habs have went out in first round with Weber and with PK.

Trade has been a wash in my opinion. Down the road their play on the ice may tip the scales one way or the other. One thing is for sure. Your posts wont.

I at least say the two players are equal . Give me some points for that would you oh wise one. Must have burned your ass when Team Canada made Weber a top player and had no ice time for the great Subban.

How did you "rectify" that one?

I know you are the smartest guy on the board. So I may have to concede on your favorite player. Some day.

You still only show half the story, You show both teams lows with both players, which are the same, but strangely enough, the part you still ommit, the highs, shows greater heights with both teams with Subban, and the opposite with Weber.

I don't think im the smartest guy on the board, but thanks anyway.

 

[Deluded Puck]

So now the goal is to make a cup final.....interesting

And they’ve regressed since

From the Montreal it that is. All Nashville had to do was reach a WCF, and they’ve gone even further than that.

You move a core piece like a PK Subban or a Shea Weber, then you are essentially saying “this guy is the reason we haven’t progressed further”.

Nashville have been justified as they’ve reached new heights. The Habs have had a first round exit and a dud season, and now a “positive” season on the bubble, which is in line with the majority of results in the past 25 years.

@PaulD is right in that it’s a wash for the Habs, but the symbolism of it just sums up everything that’s been wrong with the culture here for a generation. It ties right into the other thread highlighting the dearth of elite offensive player performance in this club.

 

[417]

If you look at this year only yeah. But you don't evaluate a trade based on half a season and some games. One could argue that since the trade was made Nashville went to the scf and lost in the 2nd round a 7 games series against a really tough opponent that is considered a very serious Stanley Cup contender. We missed the playoffs once and lost in the 1st round against a very week opponent on the verge of doing a rebuild cause they sucked too much. And don't get me started with NYR played well (some people think they did). That's not true at all they really sucked very hard in that series we just sucked more.

The problem with evaluating the trade this way, is you have to ignore that Shea Weber was excellent in that series...so it's not like the Habs lost because of him.

Evaluating the trade based on how each team has performed as a whole, since then, is tricky, there are too many variables to consider and too many being ignored at the time based on whoever is making the argument.

Even tough i think we will eventually lose the trade because of the age difference (have been saying this since day 1) it's still too early to fully evaluate the trade.

I think they lost the trade the second they decided to move a player for non-hockey reasons.

That's not a slight to Weber, he's a very good Dman...but the Habs decided to move a player in Subban, for reasons that nothing to do with hockey, so they ignored making a hockey deal in favor of making a trade based on hard-to-define intangibles.

I mean had we kept Recchi and tried to win back then the LeClair trade would not look as bad today since Recchi retired well after LeClair did and had at least one good season after LeClair retired. Anything can happen. But for now we must consider what happened so far and what can be realistically predicted for the future and things look better for Nashville than us right now even though it could change.

Not convinced things look better for Nashville - not trying to make predictions, but I could see Subban being done with hockey before a lot of people expect, he's got a lot of interests outside of hockey.

Not saying he doesn't love hockey, but I don't think that defines him and I can see with his profile and exposure being greater and more embraced by a team like the Preds...some of these outside of hockey interests may take him away from the game before most expect.

 

[PaulD]

You still only show half the story, You show both teams lows with both players, which are the same, but strangely enough, the part you still ommit, the highs, shows greater heights with both teams with Subban, and the opposite with Weber.

I don't think im the smartest guy on the board, but thanks anyway.

and you are too smart to credit the highs all to Subban. But it backs up your end.

Both teams best play off seasons were from MVP goal tending.

I take everything into account when I call it a wash.

Yes I see the wins loss record in the play offs. I dont credit is ALL that goaltending. But I dont credit it all to one number one D for another.

Trading Subban for Weber......they could have had the same effect keeping their #1 Dmen and swapping their # 1 goalies.

We would be having the same conversation if they had.

 

[PaulD]

The problem with evaluating the trade this way, is you have to ignore that Shea Weber was excellent in that series...so it's not like the Habs lost because of him.

Evaluating the trade based on how each team has performed as a whole, since then, is tricky, there are too many variables to consider and too many being ignored at the time based on whoever is making the argument.


I think they lost the trade the second they decided to move a player for non-hockey reasons.

That's not a slight to Weber, he's a very good Dman...but the Habs decided to move a player in Subban, for reasons that nothing to do with hockey, so they ignored making a hockey deal in favor of making a trade based on hard-to-define intangibles.


Not convinced things look better for Nashville - not trying to make predictions, but I could see Subban being done with hockey before a lot of people expect, he's got a lot of interests outside of hockey.

Not saying he doesn't love hockey, but I don't think that defines him and I can see with his profile and exposure being greater and more embraced by a team like the Preds...some of these outside of hockey interests may take him away from the game before most expect.

Looks slower. Bad back. Outside interests. The Movie. You may have a point.

 

[PaulD]

You still only show half the story, You show both teams lows with both players, which are the same, but strangely enough, the part you still ommit, the highs, shows greater heights with both teams with Subban, and the opposite with Weber.

I don't think im the smartest guy on the board, but thanks anyway.

Sure you do. Your welcome.

 

[417]

Looks slower. Bad back. Outside interests. The Movie. You may have a point.

All this stuff you're seeing him do now, his own show, hosting All-Star game talk show style, etc...this is all stuff that's been in the works for years.

Subban's image/brand is a big thing..the name of his show "The PK Project" is not just a random occurence or catchy name for his show, it's YEARS in the making.

And it's something the Montreal Canadiens weren't super comfortable with...

Again, i'm not trying to say he doesn't care about hockey...but unlike most hockey players, hockey doesn't define him and he wants to make his mark not just in the game, but outside of it.