Our moralizing about warriors

[vadim sharifijanov]

i’ll be honest and admit that i’ve been as guilty as anyone for romanticizing players who grind their knees to dust. i mean, i eat that bobby orr stuff up.

others of us love yzerman in the 2002 playoffs, or the legend of trevor linden taking a needle to his rib cage and then going out with a cracked rib and torn cartilage and dropping his shoulder into brian leetch to score in game seven of the stanley cup finals.

at the same time, i constantly rag on mario for threatening to quit, or actually retiring. others say things about hasek, or lindros, or any number of european guys who came over, decided the nhl wasn’t for them, and went back.

i feel like we’re having a real moment here where what athletes want, and what we as fans want from those athletes, is changing. i don’t know anything about football but i’m following the story of andrew luck’s retirement, and apparently this is a phenomenon that also includes hall of famers still young and in their primes, like rob gronkowski and others.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/08/andrew-luck-got-wise-but-fans-werent-keeping-up/596893/

i think also kawhi leonard leaving san antonio because he didn’t trust their doctors and then making toronto pace him this year, to obviously unforgettable results, is a part of this conversation.

and more quietly, rick nash retired earlier this year.

here are three quotes from last year’s free agency period, when he would have been primed to probably cash in big—

Nash, according to Sweeney, continues to say through agent Joe Resnick that he isn’t sure if he wants to continue his career. He has had a few concussions over 1,149 career games (including playoffs) and now, amid the nearly daily stories of ex-NHLers dealing with addled brains, has to be pondering what his quality of life will be at 34 and beyond.

Keep in mind, Nash has only signed two contracts in his career, the first with Columbus worth $27 million, and the second also with Columbus (then completed with the Rangers and Bruins) worth $62.4 million. A guy with some $90 million in gross earnings can afford many things, including the luxury of pondering a comfortable dotage with his mind and psyche still intact. (boston globe)

and

Reached on Sunday, Nash texted he is “weighing all options of where I want to pick up the family and move to. My main goal is to the win the Cup.” (elliotte friedman)

and

It’s a decision based entirely on health and family. Nash received strong interest when the free-agent courting period opened last weekend and likely would have netted a multi-year contract worth at least $15 million.

At this point, it’s too soon to say whether Nash will retire. He’s planning to step back and take some time to evaluate his options. There is no timetable on a decision.

Nash’s wife, Jessica, is currently pregnant with the couple’s third child and his young family has made it tougher to continue playing given his injury history. (sportsnet)

i always called him fat lazy rick nash, and maybe my negative feelings about him and mario and lindros don’t necessarily hinge on them risking their health for our amusement, but i will admit that last june it crossed my mind—only for a microsecond until i heard how ridiculous that sounded in my head, but still—that this is classic rick nash, just doesn’t want that cup that bad.

one of my criteria for lindros (and kariya) is you don’t give a guy what if points for his hall of fame case if he willingly throwing away entire seasons. i mean the holdouts, not the injured years, but it’s a slippery slope isn’t it? because if the ongoing colin kaepernick saga is also a part of this conversation, then this is also about a player’s right to his own agency in life, and us as fans respecting that.

/long ramble

Click to read more...

 

[Canadiens1958]

Andrew Luck.

No injuries be they concussions, ligament damage fractures, etc are identical. Quality of post retirement life is always a concern.

 

[Staniowski]

Yes, the humanity and happiness of athletes should come first.

Hakan Loob leaves the NHL after 6 years - I respect that.

As far as playing through injuries, it depends, of course. Sometimes playing through these injuries is not a big deal, and, personally, I always thought I played better with slight injuries.

But, if you are putting your long-term health at serious risk, that's dumb. I don't respect that.

But, in general, the players should always do what's best for them. They shouldn't care much what fans think.

 

[K Fleur]

They’re athletes, and playing through injuries doesn’t make them warriors. It never has and it never will. This is sports, not war.

People make their own decisions in life, but it seems like only one option makes sense between the two of being able to retire early with good health or to risk your long term health and have some fans talk about how much of a “warrior” you are.

 

[DannyGallivan]

But, if you are putting your long-term health at serious risk, that's dumb. I don't respect that.

Exactly... but if that's the case, football, MMA and boxing should be banned outright. Hockey is possible to play without catastrophic brain issues, but the risk is definitely there.

 

[JackSlater]

All cases are different, whether in the same or different sports. I've followed some of the mentioned athletes closely, as a Colts and Raptors fan. In Leonard's case, the San Antonio stuff with the doctors was always shady. He wanted out of San Antonio and that seems to have been the easiest way out. I do think that we're moving toward an era of athletes refusing to play through hurt, but not injured, more often. With Luck, I think it's not just the injuries he's had but the mental grind. You see early retirements in football more often than in other sports. Barry Sanders retired relatively healthy a year after winning the MVP and one average season away from taking the NHL's all time rushing record. Calvin Johnson retired relatively healthy at 30, on his way to a top five ever WR career, and the main reason seems to have been that he as tired of the grind. There are other famous cases in football too.

I do think it is admirable when an athlete perseveres through pain in an effort to win. Yes, I love Yzerman playing on .4 knees in 2002. These things are not black and white however. It isn't as simple as "hero" if you play through injury and "coward" if you don't. It also of course depends on the injury. An injured brain is a lot worse than an injured knee.

 

[VanIslander]

There is a LOT i have to say in response to the op.

(As it is after midnight here on my phone i'll defer to another day.)

Nash compared to Luck?

Facts:
1. Luck got married this off season
2. Luck is expecting a vaby in January
3. Luck was asked if his marriage had anything to do with his retirement and he said 'no' and less than ten seconds layer a voice (team media relations officer?) said "One last question" before wrapping up the press conference.
4. Luck has legendary outside interests: an architect in college, his own book club and constant literary banter with sone reporters over a book of the month/year/award.
5. Luck's commitment to football has been questioned before.

Nash?

I'll marshall details abour his commitment and timely peaks and valleys relative to contract signing periods, outside interests, disappointing expectations, etc.

Herald the Luck-Nash comparison,... but not in a good way.

G'night.

 

[Staniowski]

Exactly... but if that's the case, football, MMA and boxing should be banned outright. Hockey is possible to play without catastrophic brain issues, but the risk is definitely there.

Yeah, there is always a risk in hockey, and each player has to make their own decisions. If a player suffers a couple significant concussions, they might be better off retiring, it's up to them. It depends on the injuries, it depends on the risk.

With respect to the other sports you mentioned, there are certainly an increasing number of parents who wouldn't want their children to go into football, boxing, etc.

 

[tarheelhockey]

To a point, it's fine. Sports is basically just drama. Adversity is a key element in drama. The idea of a hero fighting through pain is pretty fundamental to pretty much every narrative we tell, from the personal level all the way up to shared social narratives.

It goes over the line when we expect the hero to actually destroy himself or suffer our wrath. Playing with a strained wrist hurts like crazy but is a thing you can fight through without much consequence. Playing with a broken wrist is something you should probably not try to fight through, but maybe the stakes are so high that you sacrifice a bit of yourself for the cause. Playing with a broken leg? A concussion? A spinal fracture? There has to be a point where you say "OK, that's enough. It's just a damn game."

 

[DannyGallivan]

To a point, it's fine. Sports is basically just drama. Adversity is a key element in drama. The idea of a hero fighting through pain is pretty fundamental to pretty much every narrative we tell, from the personal level all the way up to shared social narratives.

It goes over the line when we expect the hero to actually destroy himself or suffer our wrath. Playing with a strained wrist hurts like crazy but is a thing you can fight through without much consequence. Playing with a broken wrist is something you should probably not try to fight through, but maybe the stakes are so high that you sacrifice a bit of yourself for the cause. Playing with a broken leg? A concussion? A spinal fracture? There has to be a point where you say "OK, that's enough. It's just a damn game."

The drug is the high of the game, the vast wealth, the seductive lifestyle. Many players say that retirement is so difficult because they miss so much about the high playing the sport they love of playing in front of 15,000 people. Essentially, despite the money they acquired, their life has peaked in their early to mid 30's. That's why they have such trouble walking away when they can still drag their bodies to the rink.

 

[Filthy Dangles]

There is a LOT i have to say in response to the op.

(As it is after midnight here on my phone i'll defer to another day.)

Nash compared to Luck?

Facts:
1. Luck got married this off season
2. Luck is expecting a vaby in January
3. Luck was asked if his marriage had anything to do with his retirement and he said 'no' and less than ten seconds layer a voice (team media relations officer?) said "One last question" before wrapping up the press conference.
4. Luck has legendary outside interests: an architect in college, his own book club and constant literary banter with sone reporters over a book of the month/year/award.
5. Luck's commitment to football has been questioned before.

Nash?

I'll marshall details abour his commitment and timely peaks and valleys relative to contract signing periods, outside interests, disappointing expectations, etc.

Herald the Luck-Nash comparison,... but not in a good way.

G'night.

As a Ranger, Nash's efforts and commitment were never questioned. He was disappointing but not for effort or motivational reasons

 

[frisco]

As a related aside, it always interesting when, if someone likes a player who has struggled with injuries, the line is usually something like, "how much more could he have accomplished had he just been healthy". But when someone is disliked and is injured it is always the guy is, "brittle, soft, prone, can't stay healthy".

My Best-Carey

 

[NyQuil]

The issue with Luck isn't his decision but rather the timing of it.

 

[Tarantula]

Not sure who originally said this about pro sports " Your best ability is availability".

While we are learning much more about broken ex athletes, not having a player available is still a huge deal for the teams and coaches. Sometimes what is best for the player may not be the best for the team. Tough to balance out.

 

[Big Phil]

In this day and age the players make a ton of money. So someone like Luck has a ton of money, but he also is leaving a ton of money on the table. I think that's a factor. He's 29, that's pretty young, and he may have had a Hall of Fame career which is extremely difficult as a quarterback (think a pitcher in baseball).

But we see one side of things. These guys have families too. They have their own health. He might still look good dropping back in the pocket but he might be grimacing the entire time too. How is that fun? Luck said the joy of football got sucked out because of this. I can understand this. He probably has played the game since he was 8 years old. It was always fun, once it stops being fun, why play? Your heart isn't there.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

an interesting anecdote from dennis scott about chasing a ring vs being able to live a normal life—

 

[MadLuke]

The drug is the high of the game, the vast wealth, the seductive lifestyle. Many players say that retirement is so difficult because they miss so much about the high playing the sport they love of playing in front of 15,000 people. Essentially, despite the money they acquired, their life has peaked in their early to mid 30's. That's why they have such trouble walking away when they can still drag their bodies to the rink.

Outside the high of the game, wealth and what come with it, I wonder how much that lifestyle get really close to what the evolution build the human brain to like/act for thousand of year's of small group of hunter-gatherer, small group of people going through adversity toward a goal.

Some players continue to play long after having amassed enough wealth and play in small league with little crowd.

 

[tarheelhockey]

The issue with Luck isn't his decision but rather the timing of it.

In this day and age the players make a ton of money. So someone like Luck has a ton of money, but he also is leaving a ton of money on the table. I think that's a factor. He's 29, that's pretty young, and he may have had a Hall of Fame career which is extremely difficult as a quarterback (think a pitcher in baseball).

But we see one side of things. These guys have families too. They have their own health. He might still look good dropping back in the pocket but he might be grimacing the entire time too. How is that fun? Luck said the joy of football got sucked out because of this. I can understand this. He probably has played the game since he was 8 years old. It was always fun, once it stops being fun, why play? Your heart isn't there.

I think there's also another major factor in play with Luck, which is that the Colts made room for him by releasing Peyton Manning. That was at a time when the Manning/Brady debate was red hot, and Manning proceeded to win another ring in Denver.

I'm not sure there has been a comparable to that in another sport. Total gut punch to the fanbase, cutting the franchise's #1 player of all time on the promise of "Yeah but this next guy is going to lead us to the promised land".

For that guy to just walk away, having done nothing really noteworthy, was perhaps a little too much for the Colts fanbase to handle.

 

[BenchBrawl]

There are times and contexts where it might be worth it to risk it all for glory. This is human nature, but everybody is different.

Imagine an hypothetical scenario: Nash and Crosby have the exact same age (say 25) and injury history, which might cripple them for the rest of their lives if things go wrong. I argue it's harder for Crosby to quit because 1) he has a special inner relationship with the game in a way that Nash have not and 2) he's fighting for a true God-tier legacy, whereas Nash is just a dime a dozen star. The rest is up to the individual person.

Lots of people risk their health working construction for 25$ an hour. Can you have the golden opportunity to be a Top 10 player ever of the biggest sport of your nation and not risk everything for it? It's a hard question.

That's without going into the millions of street fights that are fought for... often nothing more than reputation. Dumb? Probably. But easy to say with detachement and distance.

Quality of life post-career is one angle, but legacy is another, and it's not clear which should prevail. Burning brightly and quickly, or burning moderately for a long time? It's a question as old as humanity.

 

[Big Phil]

I think there's also another major factor in play with Luck, which is that the Colts made room for him by releasing Peyton Manning. That was at a time when the Manning/Brady debate was red hot, and Manning proceeded to win another ring in Denver.

I'm not sure there has been a comparable to that in another sport. Total gut punch to the fanbase, cutting the franchise's #1 player of all time on the promise of "Yeah but this next guy is going to lead us to the promised land".

For that guy to just walk away, having done nothing really noteworthy, was perhaps a little too much for the Colts fanbase to handle.

Montana getting traded for the chance (finally) to let Steve Young shine. Although he did win them a Super Bowl.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Does a player have to role the dice one more time on the "career ending injury"?

 

[Canadiens1958]

I think there's also another major factor in play with Luck, which is that the Colts made room for him by releasing Peyton Manning. That was at a time when the Manning/Brady debate was red hot, and Manning proceeded to win another ring in Denver.

I'm not sure there has been a comparable to that in another sport. Total gut punch to the fanbase, cutting the franchise's #1 player of all time on the promise of "Yeah but this next guy is going to lead us to the promised land".

For that guy to just walk away, having done nothing really noteworthy, was perhaps a little too much for the Colts fanbase to handle.

Interesting but.............................the Colts set the loyalty benchmark with Peyton Manning letting him go in favour of the next trophy wife.

Did Andrew Luck force or even tell the Colts to release Peyton Manning?

 

[tarheelhockey]

Montana getting traded for the chance (finally) to let Steve Young shine. Although he did win them a Super Bowl.

Ooh, that’s a good one. So yeah, alt-reality that situation to one where Montana wins a ring in KC and Young just quits after a few unremarkable years. Niners fans would still be having nightmares.

Interesting but.............................the Colts set the loyalty benchmark with Peyton Manning letting him go in favour of the next trophy wife.

Did Andrew Luck force or even tell the Colts to release Peyton Manning?

I completely agree, just thinking about it from a fan perspective. Colts fans went from the Manning/Brady debate, to a Manning/Luck debate, to a Luck/everybody debate, to the stark reality that they lost all those debates in soul-crushing fashion.

 

[Gambitman]

Concussions have changed everything, I think most players will play just about as long as they can, both the money and for many of them,it is all they have ever done. I don’t mean they are dumb or don’t have other options, but if you have played hockey from the age of 5 and now you are 37 and every year you have had the same routine, I think you would need to be motivated to retire as opposed to needing to be motivated to continue. But concussions changes that. I am guessing there is probably not a 35 year old player who has not had 3. At that point your family especially kids start to weigh in far more on your decisions.

 

[Filthy Dangles]

Interesting but.............................the Colts set the loyalty benchmark with Peyton Manning letting him go in favour of the next trophy wife.

Did Andrew Luck force or even tell the Colts to release Peyton Manning?

Seeing as Peyton was released before Luck was even drafted, probably not. I remember the Colts cleaned house in their front office around the same time. Manning also missed the prior season with a neck injury, was about to be 36 that year and was due some huge $30M bonus, iirc.

But drafting Andrew Luck #1 instead of Robert Griffin meant the end of Manning in Indy because he was like the one of the most NFL ready QB prospects in history at that point. He wasn't gonna ride pine.

Manning obviously still had good years in him and broke the passing TD record and won a SB (although Denver defense really won that SB) and lost in another superbowl.