Our drafting past the 2nd round..

[Bangers]

I would say that's just you not knowing enough about the players.

And Mark Stone has played in 5 NHL games.

Guys like Troy Bodie and Theo Peckham are barely playing. Every player I mentioned is making a bigger impact for their teams.

EDIT - Not much of a difference between Saad and Harti? Saad has 16 points in 30 games as a rookie. Hartikainen is 3 years older and can't stick with this team.

I agree that Saad will likely turn out to be a better player than Harti, but I remember when he was drafted teams had serious concerns about his drive (otherwise he likely would have been picked in the top 20).

Sometimes, picking a player like that works out. Other times, you get Jason Bonsignore/Angelo Esposito.

If Stu and co. are guilty of one thing, it does seem like they put an emphasis on character rather than skill/upside, as evidenced by picks like Musil, Lander, Moroz, etc. Whether that is the right call or not I'm not sure, but it's still far too early to assess anybody drafted since 2008. Smid was considered somewhat of a bust until last year (8 years after he was drafted), and a large portion of posters on this board wanted Gagner gone until this year.

IMO, the only draft the current management can be assessed on yet is 2008:

Eberle - great pick
Motin - 4th round bust
Cornet - 5th round AHL - 2 GP in the NHL
Hartikainen - 6th round pick - still could go either way
Bendfeld - 7th round bust

All in all, not too bad.

 

[JusticeBeaver]

I wouldn't start nit picking your bottom six guys before evaluating your management.

The skill on this team is amazing. It's disgusting what is going on in Edmonton right now. I'm not an oilers fan, but I'd love to see this team destroy the west.

 

[McDoused]

I'm starting to think me, dnicks and mr.bugg could do a better job scouting.

 

[Wheathead]

I have this concern/fear that 2nd round on the Oilers may draft too many players that play for the Oil Kings just because they play for the Oil Kings. Moroz is a good example of that. There was likely better talent available at that spot, but they picked Moroz.

Don't get me wrong, I hope Mitch develops into a fine NHLer... but at the draft, that was a questionable decision.

 

[McDoused]

I have this concern/fear that 2nd round on the Oilers may draft too many players that play for the Oil Kings just because they play for the Oil Kings. Moroz is a good example of that. There was likely better talent available at that spot, but they picked Moroz.

Don't get me wrong, I hope Mitch develops into a fine NHLer... but at the draft, that was a questionable decision.

I wasn't a fan of the Moroz pick but the Oilers don't draft a ton from the Oil Kings. It's more the other way around.

 

[Beerfish]

I have this concern/fear that 2nd round on the Oilers may draft too many players that play for the Oil Kings just because they play for the Oil Kings. Moroz is a good example of that. There was likely better talent available at that spot, but they picked Moroz.

Don't get me wrong, I hope Mitch develops into a fine NHLer... but at the draft, that was a questionable decision.

100% agreed.

 

[Joe Hallenback]

If I could use hindsight and cherry pick draft picks years later to make a point that is at best very poorly thought out...why I might think I might look like a genius over the internet!

1. You say the Oilers only look at CHLers? Granted they do. But then you pick 3 teams in particular that draft almost mainly from NA in Chicago,LA and Boston.

2. Those 3 teams have had some very good draft years no doubt too. Like Boston had an amazing year in 2006 getting Kessel,Lucic and Marchand but you also failed to mention they really haven't done anything in 2007,2008 or 2009. I could make the same cases for LA and Chicago but why bother probably just deny it anyway

3. The OMG we drafted a plug in Mitch Moroz in the 2nd round! Well it turns out 3 of the teams, LA,Boston and Ottawa, drafted there own versions of Moroz as well. Clifford,Lucic and Smith.

4. 30 teams make draft picks every round. You can't pass over every busted pick and cherry pick players. In 2006 the Oilers took Jeff Petry in the 2nd round. There were 14 players chosen before him in the draft, 9 of them played 6 or less games in the NHL. The idea that it is easy to draft and develop players every year is well quite frankly stupid

5. The Oilers since 2003 when they took MAP, have an amazing track record with their 1st round picks. All of them are NHL regulars who make significant contributions.

6. The Oilers minor league team in OKC is a winning team. That is due to coaching and strong pipeline of good solid draft picks. While there is no guarantee that they will make great NHL players, I can say without a doubt they will start to churn out very solid pro players. By that I mean guys that can come up and play the system and fill voids in the lineup. I think next year you will see a guy like Hamilton come up and play int he bottom 6 and play well enough to make someone expendable. That is what good organizations do, they have a pipeline of cheap young players that they can call up to fill those voids. When this team turns the corner that pipeline will go in full effect and the fruits of the scouts and coaching staffs labor will be able to be seen

 

[Lowe in Oil]

We need picks like these:

Mark Messier 3rd round
Glenn Anderson 4th round
Jarri Kurri 4th round
Andy Mood 7th round
Steve Smith 6th round
Esa Tikannen 4th round
Kelly Buchburger 9th round

Who picked those guys? Who was head scout in the early 80s?

 

[Master Lok]

If I could use hindsight and cherry pick draft picks years later to make a point that is at best very poorly thought out...why I might think I might look like a genius over the internet!

1. You say the Oilers only look at CHLers? Granted they do. But then you pick 3 teams in particular that draft almost mainly from NA in Chicago,LA and Boston.

thanks Joe for your post. You've made my point much clearer than I ever could.

Could Edmonton's later round drafting be better?

Absolutely, but so could every team.

Is Edmonton's later round drafting really that much worse than every other team?

Not by my eye. Its a crapshoot, after the first two rounds. One player making it to the NHL out for the fifth round skews all the results.

Was it a keen eye for talent that spotted Gallagher or Versteeg in the 5th round?

Possibly. But 29 other teams didn't draft these guys in four rounds prior. In fact, if Montreal really liked Gallagher or Boston really liked Versteeg that much, then why didn't they draft these guys in an earlier round?

Because Montreal liked Morgan Ellis and Boston liked Ashton Rome in the fourth round better. Where are these guys now?

 

[Master Lok]

I would say that's just you not knowing enough about the players.

And Mark Stone has played in 5 NHL games.

That's possible. The other possibility is that you are really overrating the potential of other teams players. Let's look at them after more seasons has passed. It's difficult to say what Kyle Clifford or Andrew Shaw will develop into, players do not develop on a straight line.

EDIT - Not much of a difference between Saad and Harti? Saad has 16 points in 30 games as a rookie. Hartikainen is 3 years older and can't stick with this team.

Sorry I meant not much of a difference between Saad and Harti prior to this season. I forgot to add that. The obvious is that this year is a shortened season and a smaller sample size than normal.

As I said, its standard to wait five years to evaluate a draft.

The 2007 draft for example for the Oilers drafted Gagner, Alex Plante, Riley Nash, Linus Omark, Milan Kytnar, and William Quist.

The Oilers had three first rounders and no second or third round draft picks, so its not exactly fair to judge the Oilers late round drafting on only their 4th, 5th and 6th round picks.

Nash is playing in the NHL for Carolina. Omark and Plante may have some opportunity to play in the NHL but are realistically longshots at this point and the rest are busts.


By comparison, in 2007 Chicago drafted Bill Sweatt, Akim Aliu, Maxime Tanguay, Josh Unice, Joe Lavin and Richard Greenop. How do those players strike you?

 

[tiger_80]

I agree that Saad will likely turn out to be a better player than Harti, but I remember when he was drafted teams had serious concerns about his drive (otherwise he likely would have been picked in the top 20).

Sometimes, picking a player like that works out. Other times, you get Jason Bonsignore/Angelo Esposito.

If Stu and co. are guilty of one thing, it does seem like they put an emphasis on character rather than skill/upside, as evidenced by picks like Musil, Lander, Moroz, etc. Whether that is the right call or not I'm not sure, but it's still far too early to assess anybody drafted since 2008. Smid was considered somewhat of a bust until last year (8 years after he was drafted), and a large portion of posters on this board wanted Gagner gone until this year.

IMO, the only draft the current management can be assessed on yet is 2008:

Eberle - great pick
Motin - 4th round bust
Cornet - 5th round AHL - 2 GP in the NHL
Hartikainen - 6th round pick - still could go either way
Bendfeld - 7th round bust

All in all, not too bad.

Don't forget 2003-2007. Those drafts are the main reason the team has been so bad in the past 4 years. Mostly busts even in the first, not to mention later rounds (Pouliot, Schremp, Plante, Nash were all first round picks).
Basically Gagner, Petry and Dubnyk is all we have to show from those years. I guess one could add guys like Cogliano, Brodziak and Peckham, but that does not really change the general picture.

The judgement is still out on 2008-2012 drafts.
Looking past obvious 1st overalls, one can say with certainty that Eberle was a tremendous pick as 22nd overall. Paajarvi still has potential to develop into a very useful top 6-top 9 forward.

Klefbom, Marincin, Musil, Hartikainen, Rieder, maybe Gernat look like solid prospects. if they can get a couple of top 6 forwards/top 4 defensemen out of this group, things won't look so bad.

The rest, unfortunately, most likely will bust or will never amount to anything of substance in the NHL (and yes, that list includes plenty of high 2nd-3rd rounders--Lander, Abney, Pitlick, Hamilton, Martindale, Perhonen, Moroz).

 

[Bangers]

Don't forget 2003-2007. Those drafts are the main reason the team has been so bad in the past 4 years. Mostly busts even in the first, not to mention later rounds (Pouliot, Schremp, Plante, Nash were all first round picks).
Basically Gagner, Petry and Dubnyk is all we have to show from those years. I guess one could add guys like Cogliano, Brodziak and Peckham, but that does not really change the general picture.

The judgement is still out on 2008-2012 drafts.
Looking past obvious 1st overalls, one can say with certainty that Eberle was a tremendous pick as 22nd overall. Paajarvi still has potential to develop into a very useful top 6-top 9 forward.

Klefbom, Marincin, Musil, Hartikainen, Rieder, maybe Gernat look like solid prospects. if they can get a couple of top 6 forwards/top 4 defensemen out of this group, things won't look so bad.

The rest, unfortunately, most likely will bust or will never amount to anything of substance in the NHL (and yes, that list includes plenty of high 2nd-3rd rounders--Lander, Abney, Pitlick, Hamilton, Martindale, Perhonen, Moroz).

Drafts before 2008 were under Prendergast's scouting crew and can't really be blamed on MacGregor et al.

Also, the EIG's boneheaded decision tonot have a farm team
had to have hurt the development of a lot of prospects, which current management seems to have realized and rectified.

 

[Hockey Buddha]

To me, these look like reasonable post-first round prospects:
Marincin, 2nd round; Musil, 2nd round; Lander, 2nd round; Zharkov, 3rd round; Rieder, 4th round; Bunz, 5th round; Gernat, 5th round; Hartikainen, 6th round. We'll have to wait and see how it turns out.

 

[Joey Moss]

If I could use hindsight and cherry pick draft picks years later to make a point that is at best very poorly thought out...why I might think I might look like a genius over the internet!

1. You say the Oilers only look at CHLers? Granted they do. But then you pick 3 teams in particular that draft almost mainly from NA in Chicago,LA and Boston.
I'm not criticizing the Oilers for sticking to the CHL. In fact I'm happy they are going that route. My point was that we've thought so highly of Stu because we see what these players are doing in the CHL after we pick them when they haven't proven much else at the professional level. That was my point.
2. Those 3 teams have had some very good draft years no doubt too. Like Boston had an amazing year in 2006 getting Kessel,Lucic and Marchand but you also failed to mention they really haven't done anything in 2007,2008 or 2009. I could make the same cases for LA and Chicago but why bother probably just deny it anyway
Why shouldn't I deny it? What am I supposed to ignore these amazing drafts? Fact is the Oilers have never found a player like those three players Boston selected. I don't care if Boston had an off year for drafting. Every team does. They've done a hell of a lot more than Edmonton though.
3. The OMG we drafted a plug in Mitch Moroz in the 2nd round! Well it turns out 3 of the teams, LA,Boston and Ottawa, drafted there own versions of Moroz as well. Clifford,Lucic and Smith.
And if you want to look at numbers, you will see a huge difference between Clifford, Lucic and Moroz. Lucic and Clifford both put up near PPG numbers after their draft years. Moroz is no where near that production. At this point it's looking a little more like Ben Eager than Lucic.
4. 30 teams make draft picks every round. You can't pass over every busted pick and cherry pick players. In 2006 the Oilers took Jeff Petry in the 2nd round. There were 14 players chosen before him in the draft, 9 of them played 6 or less games in the NHL. The idea that it is easy to draft and develop players every year is well quite frankly stupid
Never have I said anything about the Oilers passing over these players. All I have said is the Oilers have not done a good enough job of drafting and/or developing.
5. The Oilers since 2003 when they took MAP, have an amazing track record with their 1st round picks. All of them are NHL regulars who make significant contributions.
Not hard when we've had top 10 picks since 2009, as well as the 6th overall pick in 2007. As stated already, I give all credit for the Eberle pick. Dubnyk and Cogliano ended up being good picks as well, you're right. But this isn't about drafting in the 1st round.
6. The Oilers minor league team in OKC is a winning team. That is due to coaching and strong pipeline of good solid draft picks. While there is no guarantee that they will make great NHL players, I can say without a doubt they will start to churn out very solid pro players. By that I mean guys that can come up and play the system and fill voids in the lineup. I think next year you will see a guy like Hamilton come up and play int he bottom 6 and play well enough to make someone expendable. That is what good organizations do, they have a pipeline of cheap young players that they can call up to fill those voids. When this team turns the corner that pipeline will go in full effect and the fruits of the scouts and coaching staffs labor will be able to be seen

^ We'll see.

 

[Hockey Buddha]

Khaira, a 3rd rounder, 6'3, 195 lbs, has put up decent numbers as a rookie playing for Michigan Tech this season. Using Desjardin's equivalencies, his numbers are comparable to Lucic's at the same age. I'm only comparing the two players to show that Khaira is tracking fairly well at this point, and they are both power forwards. Khaira is looking like a pretty decent selection thus far, but again, it's too early to tell.

 

[thadd]

If it's drafting, then we should say "what drafting?" and if it's development we should say "are you joking? who wastes time on that?"

 

[Beerfish]

If I could use hindsight and cherry pick draft picks years later to make a point that is at best very poorly thought out...why I might think I might look like a genius over the internet!

This is the normal statement you see from people after people express an opinion. It is not hindsight if you say certain picks stink from day one. Like Alex plante, Cam Abney and now Mitch Moroz. In any case what is wrong with other people that do use hindsight? Our picking after #1 stinks for the most part. We drafted Pitlick, Martindale and Hamilton to be those forwards with size that could be top 6 guys. All of them look like crap at this point.

And you should be patting the people in the back that had the balls to state opinions on picks early on if they are correct. Just as you should take them to task if they were wrong.

Most people would rather never make an opinion at all for fear of being wrong and then still pat themselves for being right after the fact.

 

[Joe Hallenback]

This is the normal statement you see from people after people express an opinion. It is not hindsight if you say certain picks stink from day one. Like Alex plante, Cam Abney and now Mitch Moroz. In any case what is wrong with other people that do use hindsight? Our picking after #1 stinks for the most part. We drafted Pitlick, Martindale and Hamilton to be those forwards with size that could be top 6 guys. All of them look like crap at this point.

And you should be patting the people in the back that had the balls to state opinions on picks early on if they are correct. Just as you should take them to task if they were wrong.

Most people would rather never make an opinion at all for fear of being wrong and then still pat themselves for being right after the fact.

I don't think it stinks at all. I think it falls right in line with a lot of teams drafting. Prospect progress isn't a linear path.

You can't use hindsight as a tool if you don't also include the reverse side of it.

I can't defend something like draft picks if I don't look at the whole of the draft picks and what the other teams did as well.

Giving an opinion without adequate knowledge isn't a good thing you know. If you do give an opinion without any kind of support behind it then you should be ready for people to rip it apart.

Pat people on the back for what? Hoping your teams prospect fails so you can have some small measure of satisfaction? What kind of supposed fan wants that to happen? I get the idea of stating I would rather they have went this way but to carry it on year after year and just praying none of these guys sees the light of day is just sad to me some how.

 

[Seedling]

A big part of the success in Ottawa has been the paralleled systems employed by our farm and NHL squads. Last year, Luke Richardson was learning the ins and outs of the system under MacLean. This year, he's our AHL head coach, and he's implemented MacLean's structure. It basically allows the kids to learn the ropes in the AHL before coming up and filling in with the big club. It's worked phenomenally well this season, with AHL call-ups exceeding expectations.

I haven't been able to watch much of OKC, but if there's a disconnect between coaching at the two levels, that may contribute to poor prospect development and an inability to transition prospects onto the NHL roster. Given Edmonton's coaching turnover the past few seasons, it's possible the AHL systems have changed too much (instability makes it harder for players to develop), or that the AHL systems haven't changed enough (and thus are out of synch with our NHL system).

It certainly doesn't help that the Oilers scouting and drafting decisions are, at the very least, questionable in many cases (Mitch Moroz is a good example of this). I don't necessarily think it's been too bad. In a few years some of those guys we think are busts now may have turned it around. Even nabbing two regular NHLers per draft is solid drafting.

Ottawa has one of the best development systems in the league. They always have because, as you said, what happens on the big club is what is taught on the farm. This is also true of The Devils, Minnesota, Detroit, Boston and perhaps Dallas.

With the Oil not having an AHL team for so many years, they seem to me to be playing catch up with better development teams. Having said that; What is our system? We have had four coaches in five years and more turnover than a Denny's restaurant on free seniors day.

Is Nelson a great development coach? I din't know but if you believe the Oilers drafting department, it is not drafting that is the issue. Truth is almost every team has lots of those bottom nine from guys they have drafted. Why don't we?

 

[cbear42]

It is pretty much a crapshoot after the 2nd round. Is it even possible to predict what a kid at 17 years old will look like at 24? If anything it's all in development, there is probably 200 guys all around the same talent level but need guidance in developing those skills.

^ This

While I would like to see better results, its just a lottery really. I think we are doing well getting what we can out of the few players that have any sort of impact but the luck has not been on our side with picking beyond the 1st round.

 

[zeus3007*]

When you have to bring up fringe NHL'ers into your argument you know something's wrong.

Seriously.. Brodziak and Petry the only good players out of 5 years? Not good enough when you look at the other teams I've listed.

No, not good enough. But you also need to remember that when the rebuild started, more emphasis was placed on the draft. We have had guys like Pitlick and Hamilton who we thought would be NHL'ers by now, but we haven't given a lot of recent picks nearly enough time to judge. I don't think anyone is disagreeing that drafting and development has been a problem with this organization, but its too early to tell for the last 4 or 5 years.

 

[zeus3007*]

I have this concern/fear that 2nd round on the Oilers may draft too many players that play for the Oil Kings just because they play for the Oil Kings. Moroz is a good example of that. There was likely better talent available at that spot, but they picked Moroz.

Don't get me wrong, I hope Mitch develops into a fine NHLer... but at the draft, that was a questionable decision.

The Oilers don't draft many guys from the Oil Kings. In fact, they could have drafted more but passed on some guys. I think they went into the draft last year thinking they were the only team ranking Henrik Samuelsson that high, and when he was picked early they picked the closest player. Problem is, that Moroz hasn't shown the offense that Sammy has. I think it came down to who was the best power forward available, but they shouldn't be drafting for need with a pick like that. That said, I absolutely love the Juhar Khaira pick. That kid could be awesome.