Our 2nd-7th round picks for forwards is laughably trash

Michel Beauchamp

Canadiens' fan since 1958
Mar 17, 2008
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Forwards aren't the be all and end all. A pick is a pick, IFAIC.
Isn't the title of this thread "Our 2nd-7th round picks for forwards is laughably trash" ?

If you want to go off-topic, that's no skin off my nose, but don't act surprised if you're called on it.
 

ottomaddox

Registered User
Oct 31, 2017
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Komarov lost his job to a Marlie in the NHL Playoffs. Polak can and should be replaced by Borgman, who distinguished himself well. JVR and Bozak were sheltered to the extreme, to the point that they were facing 4th liners at times because Kapanen was giving opposition coaches fits. Moore and Plekanec, seriously? Losing them should be the last thing you are worried about as they played themselves into oblivion. The Marlies top line is dominating the best teams in the AHL in the playoffs. They will have little trouble producing if they are sheltered the same way JVR and Bozak were, and unlike those two, all the marlies coming up can be bothered to contribute in their own zone. Time to lose the overpriced crutches and training wheels.

I don't understand this post.

It's a new season next year. We'll have to trade for players, and sign UFAs.
 

ottomaddox

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We can easily replace JVR, Bozak, Komarov, Moore, Pleckanec (and Martin) with a group of players who will produce the same collective offense while improving overall team defense. Remember, hockey is a team sport that includes both offense and defence collectively. Its not, say, golf.

PS. Without Marleau in their line up, San Jose's offense actually improved (even before they added Kane) and their defense wasn't effected. How did that happen?

Probably by making trades and signing UFAs.
 

The List Of Jericho

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We've seen and still see so many great centres and wingers in this league that weren't 1st overall picks like Matthews, or top 10 picks like Kadri, Nylander and Marner, or even 1st round picks, that just went above and beyond in terms of progression and development and have become stars and superstars. We've never had that luxury yet.

Our longest serving Leaf once Bozak is gone will be Nazem Kadri, and he was drafted in 2009 so lets use that as a starting point of all our forwards drafted in the 2nd round and later. The results are embarrassing.

2009
2nd round, 50th overall: Kenny Ryan, 0 NHL GP
3rd round, 68th overall: Jamie Devane, 2 NHL GP, 0 G, 0 A, 0 P
6th round, 158th overall: Jerry D'Amigo, 31 NHL GP, 1 G, 2 A, 3 P (22 GP with Leafs)

2010
2nd round, 43rd overall: Brad Ross, 0 NHL GP
3rd round, 62nd overall: Greg McKegg, 91 NHL GP, 7 G, 6 A, 13 P (4 GP with Leafs)
3rd round, 79th overall: Sondre Olden, 0 NHL GP
5th round, 144th overall: Sam Carrick, 19 NHL GP, 1 G, 1 A, 2 P
5th round, 146th overall: Daniel Brodin, 0 NHL GP
7th round, 182nd overall: Josh Nicholls, 0 NHL GP

2011
3rd round, 86th overall: Josh Leivo, 57 NHL GP, 10 G, 12 A, 22 P*
5th round, 130th overall: Tony Cameranesi, 0 NHL GP
6th round, 152nd overall: David Broll, 5 NHL GP, 0 G, 1 A, 1 P

2012
5th round, 126th overall: Dominic Toninato, 37 NHL GP, 0 G, 2 A, 2 P (0 GP with Leafs)
6th round, 156th overall: Connor Brown, 171 NHL GP, 35 G, 35 A, 70 P*
6th round, 157th overall: Ryan Rupert, 0 NHL GP

2013
3rd round, 86th overall: Carter Verhaeghe, 0 NHL GP
5th round, 142nd overall: Fabrice Herzog, 0 NHL GP
7th round, 202nd overall: Andreas Johnsson, 9 NHL GP, 2 G, 1 A, 3 P*

2014

4th round, 103rd overall: J.J. Piccinich, 0 NHL GP
5th round, 128th overall: Dakota Joshua, 0 NHL GP
6th round, 158th overall: Nolan Vesey, 0 NHL GP
7th round, 188th overall: Pierre Engvall, 0 NHL GP**

2015
2nd round, 61st overall: Jeremy Bracco, 0 NHL GP**
3rd round, 68th overall: Martins Dzierkals, 0 NHL GP
5th round, 125th overall: Dmytro Timashov, 0 NHL GP**
7th round, 185th overall: Nikita Korostelev, 0 NHL GP

tl;dr whole lot of prospects with 0 GP

* Leivo always ends up being a scratch or 4th liner when he's in the lineup so I feel like his potential is pretty much wasted. Brown has turned into a decent 3rd liner for us with penalty killing abilities, but that's about it, the guy doesn't do much else, benefited heavily from playing with Matthews his rookie year, and his regression this year when not playing with him showed. Johnsson is our 1 lucky late pick with top 6 potential, he is 24 years old so he's already in the prime years of his career and he just finally had his cup of coffee in the NHL. He is really going to need to show more next season.

** Jury is still out on Engvall, Bracco and Timashov on them just being NHL'ers. They definitely don't have star+ potential though. I'd say Engvall has higher potential at this point though after what he's shown since coming to the Marlies, and the SHL.

Not gonna do 2016-2017, too early for that. It's just absolutely amazing to me that the only way we were able to finally climb out of the basement was to get lucky by winning a lottery then drafting a franchise centre 1st overall, suck and suck to get Nylander and Marner, while getting no luck at all in the late rounds for forwards along the way. We need a Bergeron, a Benn, a Kucherov, a Marchand, a Gaudreau, a Stone, an Aho, a Point.

It's easy to make the Matthews and Marner picks. Imagine where we could've been this season or where we could be next season if we just had 1 single surprise mid or late round pick so that useless players like Bozak, Komarov or Martin would be long gone, and that there would've never been a need to sign/trade for players like Moore or Plekanec in the 1st place.

Johnsson, Leivo, Brown isn't bad at all. Not to mention Engvall and Grundy(later draft) look solid....2nd rounders and beyond have slim chances of making the NHL, not sure what you're expecting.
 

Notsince67

Papi and the Lamplighters
Apr 27, 2018
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We can easily replace JVR, Bozak, Komarov, Moore, Pleckanec (and Martin) with a group of players who will produce the same collective offense while improving overall team defense. Remember, hockey is a team sport that includes both offense and defence collectively. Its not, say, golf.

PS. Without Marleau in their line up, San Jose's offense actually improved (even before they added Kane) and their defense wasn't effected. How did that happen?
Saying you can easily replace JVR and Bozak is just plain stupid. I'm not saying that they are elite but they are still some damn good players who stand above many players in the NHL. At their current salaries, they would be a lock on the team next year period. The problem is Term for Bozak and JVR is too good to be paid what he is currently paid. They are getting older and their play will begin to deteriorate. In the long term, we might be able to develop players but to think that they suck is crazy. I've seen crap on this team and they aren't it.
And about Marleau...stfu. Warrior and great character guy that never looks bad. Consistant as hell
 

7even

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Feb 1, 2012
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We no longer have the rights to Dzierkals and Korostelev so they're done, and I think we see what Bracco and Timashov are at this point. I used to really like Timashov when he was in junior, thought he was a steal. He was a fantastic playmaker with good vision but he hasn't transitioned that to the AHL and doesn't get enough ice time. Although he's playing well in the playoffs right now with 9 points in 12 games. Bracco's speed and skill set isn't enough to make up for his small size IMO.

I've never been a particularly big fan of Timashov, but what I will say for him is that he's been much more productive since he was given a bigger role towards the end of the year and now into the playoffs. There might be something there. I guess what I'm saying is the most recent sign has been positive.
 

ottomaddox

Registered User
Oct 31, 2017
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Thank goodness we signed Marleau because we're going to be waiting forever for Leivo to turn into something.

All the Marlies mentioned in this thread might be playing good, but the reality is that 1 or 2 might graduate to the big club.

There's still a Mike Babcock factor. Someone that he likes that's outside of our organization might be available this summer.

So many people thought loads of Marlies were going to be injected in the line-up last season: "Trade JVR, Bozak, and Komarov at the deadline", many fans declared.

The NHL is not an smooth running escalator. Many of our picks outside the first round haven't proven to be that good yet. I hope that these guys prove me wrong, but I doubt it.
 

Rants Mulliniks

Registered User
Jun 22, 2008
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You think JVR is easily replaceable?

I know that we didn't get the best from D. Moore this season, yet Freddy Goat didn't exactly play in a way that made Moore expendable.

There are only 2 in your whole list that aren't "easily" replaceable but they both play extremely sheltered roles (more than just Martin and Moore) because they are extreme liabilities the coach does not trust. Fortunately we have several guys coming up who not only can score (maybe not 36 goals) but are FAR better at keeping the puck out of our own net, which is what this team needs most. So really, yes, JVR is pretty easily replaceable, if you value winning over scoring.
 

ottomaddox

Registered User
Oct 31, 2017
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There are only 2 in your whole list that aren't "easily" replaceable but they both play extremely sheltered roles (more than just Martin and Moore) because they are extreme liabilities the coach does not trust. Fortunately we have several guys coming up who not only can score (maybe not 36 goals) but are FAR better at keeping the puck out of our own net, which is what this team needs most. So really, yes, JVR is pretty easily replaceable, if you value winning over scoring.

Nobody here values winning!

Give me a break. Of course I value winning. I am not a 17 year old gamer or a fantasy hockey type.

My argument is still the same though. I cannot see next season as one where the line up will be filled with Marlies graduates. We might get one or two at the start of the season (Dermott and Johnsson have graduated already). TOR will sign free agents and make trades to round out their roster.
 

Rants Mulliniks

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Jun 22, 2008
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Nobody here values winning!

Give me a break. Of course I value winning. I am not a 17 year old gamer or a fantasy hockey type.

My argument is still the same though. I cannot see next season as one where the line up will be filled with Marlies graduates. We might get one or two at the start of the season (Dermott and Johnsson have graduated already). TOR will sign free agents and make trades to round out their roster.

None of which has necessarily anything to do with whether those people are easily replaceable?

I like how you covered your butt with the 9 and 37 game graduation bit though.
 

Sypher04

Registered User
Jan 20, 2011
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Nobody here values winning!

Give me a break. Of course I value winning. I am not a 17 year old gamer or a fantasy hockey type.

My argument is still the same though. I cannot see next season as one where the line up will be filled with Marlies graduates. We might get one or two at the start of the season (Dermott and Johnsson have graduated already). TOR will sign free agents and make trades to round out their roster.

I would agree. If we simply try to plug all our holes with Marlies next year and don't use the UFA and trade markets to try to improve for next season, we've missed the boat big time imo. I get staying the course, and I'm not suggesting making a bad deal for the sake of getting things done, but next year is a big year for us. With Matthews & Marner set for huge raises the following year, we are not going to get a better chance to compete than we had this past year and this one coming up, from a cap perspective.
 
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LeafGrief

Shambles in my brain
Apr 10, 2015
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Because we haven't gotten lucky? Rounds 3-7 (and even the 2nd to late first, to an extent) are a total crapshoot. You're picking out guys who have a few tools but a whole ton of holes in their games and are just praying that they put things together. So much of that is luck. If a team like Calgary had really figured things out when they picked Gaudreau, then you would imagine that they would have a roster full of those guys. If the Lightning had figured things out with Kucherov and Point, why didn't they pick Gaudreau or Panarin or any of those other steals? So much of it boils down to luck and the Leafs haven't gotten lucky yet. Yes, your scouts need to be talented to identify the guys who have the tools and steal potential, but when you're looking at the .5% chance for a star on each late pick, it's totally normal to go decades without getting a hit.

Go and look at the draft picks from any team in the league over the past decade and you will see that there is no team that has figured out how to draft in the late rounds. The Blackhawks did well for a few years and then completely forgot how. The Lightning have multiple years where they've whiffed hard. The Leafs might be below average, but somebody has to be, and we fired all of those scouts at the end of the day. The Leafs are getting NHL contributions from players like Brown and Johnsson, with the Marlies featuring two more Swedish forwards picked in those 7th and 2nd rounds. Trying to rank your scouting staff by their late round steals is like congratulating lottery winners for their foresight.
 

DowntownConnorBrown

Registered User
Apr 28, 2018
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i think leivo would be better on the 2nd or 3rd line he's not a good 4th liner doesn't have the size or the toughness but if he played with marner and kadri he might play a lot better because he's a good goal scorer not a grinder
 

ottomaddox

Registered User
Oct 31, 2017
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None of which has necessarily anything to do with whether those people are easily replaceable?

I like how you covered your butt with the 9 and 37 game graduation bit though.

I'm not covering anything. One assumes that some of the players who played in the Boston series are a part of the team going forward. Dermott and Johnsson played in that series.

I am referring to T. Moore, Timoshov, Aaltonen, Grundstrom, etc.

Only 1 of these players might land a spot on the big club.

I'd love to be wrong, but we are not quote at a point where our farm team/development program is producing replacements.

Expect a trade at the draft and in the offseason. Also expect a very busy July 1st.
 

CantLoseWithMatthews

Registered User
Sep 28, 2015
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our top end forward talent and forward depth is probably top 3 in the league, and there's still a thread complaining about it. Crazy really
 

DopeyFish

Mitchy McDangles
Nov 17, 2009
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I didn't call Bracco a bad prospect, I just don't think he has the potential to be a game breaking forward like other star 2nd-7th round picks in the NHL. Brooks is a 2016 pick, I didn't cover the 2016 and 2017 drafts in this thread because it's too soon for those drafts. Sparks is a goalie, this thread is for forwards?

You don't think he has potential to be a gamebreaking forward? We're a year removed from him absolutely demolishing the erie otters in the memorial cup near single handedly.

Bracco is possibly our top prospect. You may not see it that way, sure. But I think he's got a brighter future than most people realize.
 

Dough72

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Sep 3, 2008
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i think leivo would be better on the 2nd or 3rd line he's not a good 4th liner doesn't have the size or the toughness but if he played with marner and kadri he might play a lot better because he's a good goal scorer not a grinder
I think that's how Las Vegas built their team. They correctly identified players who might take a huge step forward if given a starring role. There are probably a couple on the Leafs like that with Leivo being a good candidate.
 

Boutette

Been there done that
Sep 28, 2017
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Probably by making trades and signing UFAs.

Not with the quality of players we can promote to their positions or move to them. The only forward position that appears weak is center, but Nylander is perfectly capable of replacing Bozak's role and run with it. We have plenty of skilled 2-way forwards to fill in the rest of the bottom six, and we still have Martin if a heavy hitter is needed. The only area of definite need for improvement is defense. Wasting money on forwards next year would be the equivalent of signing another veteranl goaltender to a $5 mil contract. Yeah, it won't *hurt* the team next year, but its spending cap in the wrong place.
 
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Boutette

Been there done that
Sep 28, 2017
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You don't think he has potential to be a gamebreaking forward? We're a year removed from him absolutely demolishing the erie otters in the memorial cup near single handedly.

Bracco is possibly our top prospect. You may not see it that way, sure. But I think he's got a brighter future than most people realize.

I agree. he, along with Brooks have shown that when they are provided the opportunity, they are point a game players in the AHL even as rookies. Both he and Bracco showed that every time they were promoted from the 4th line. I would really love to see Bracco put on Matthews line in the preseason to get a hint of what his elite playmaking might offer in the future.
 
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Rants Mulliniks

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Jun 22, 2008
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I'm not covering anything. One assumes that some of the players who played in the Boston series are a part of the team going forward. Dermott and Johnsson played in that series.

I am referring to T. Moore, Timoshov, Aaltonen, Grundstrom, etc.

Only 1 of these players might land a spot on the big club.

I'd love to be wrong, but we are not quote at a point where our farm team/development program is producing replacements.

Expect a trade at the draft and in the offseason. Also expect a very busy July 1st.

Every single team makes trades and UFA signings. You are basically arguing the sun will rise in the East.
 

Rants Mulliniks

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Jun 22, 2008
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Top 3?

Wow. That's not what I'm seeing. I watch WSH and VGK and I am saying to myself: "We are short 6 forwards in order to challenge".

Our team with 7 rookies took Washington to 5 overtimes and a 6th one goal game last year, in large part thanks to depth at forward. I remember before the series started everyone was talking about how amazing Washington's forwards were and I pointed out that if you looked at lines 1 through 3, Washington had a big edge with line 1 but Toronto actually had better scoring on lines 2 and 3.
 

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