Ottawa Senators Team Toughness

[FolignoQuantumLeap]

Jordan Nolan
Matt Hendricks
Jared Boll
Lance Bouma
Ryan Reaves


Any interest in any of these guys? They are all free agents this summer.

Maybe one for Belleville. There's a nice group of guys who are unlikely to play in the NHL next year besides maybe Nolan.

 

[Zorf]

Team toughness is a huge issue.

how do you address team toughness though? Everyone says their team needs more toughness, but how do you do that? I have zero interest in signing a low-skill player who will be limited to 6 mins of ice time per night, and go around trying to hit people and get in 15-17 fights per year. That doesnt' add any valuable toughness, in my opinion.

To me, team toughness is the culture and identity that the coaches and the organization establish. Toughness is a willingness to block shots. It's a willingness to put in the extra effort to chase loose pucks, to win battles along the boards, and to stand up for team mates when needed (which doesn't exclusively mean you need to drop the gloves if someone gets laid out). Are you, as a player, willing to go balls-out each shift because you know that each of your team mates are willing to do the same? If everyone buys in, then that's team toughness.

Adding some no-skill plugger like Ryan Reaves doesn't do jack if the team isn't prepared to be tough as a group.



edit: I remember Phil Esposito said one time that when he played, he could have hated a team mate off the ice, but on the ice, he'd skate through a wall for the guy. That's toughness. A willingness to do whatever is needed to help your team win.

 

[Ouroboros]

The time has never been more right to finally bring Chris Stewart to Ottawa.

 

[FolignoQuantumLeap]

The time has never been more right to finally bring Chris Stewart to Ottawa.

No. We need Gary Roberts. It's time.

 

[Ice-Tray]

How so

I feel that it makes every player play with more confidence and swagger when you have a tough team. When you know guys are going to stand up for you no matter what you feel better about owning your space, delivering a hit, battling in front of the net, etc...

Big buff is huge part in giving the Jets team toughness, as the buck stops there, but you spice things up with a few more guys and all of a sudden the skill guys play bigger.

That stuff is right from the players' mouthes, as well as apparent watching teams play. Having a Neil and Fisher on the team was huge as an example, along with Chara, and few guys that would get in the mix like Smith.

The team doesn't have to have a bunch of fighters, but when Smith is your toughest and most aggressive forward you're lacking team toughness in my opinion.

I agree that the players have to be good enough to hold down a regular roster spot. There are guys out there like that, they're just a little more rare as it's a unique skill set.

 

[RAFI BOMB]

Maybe one for Belleville. There's a nice group of guys who are unlikely to play in the NHL next year besides maybe Nolan.

Jordan Nolan could be an interesting 13th forward. He has decent mobility, is fairly sound defensively and he can lay the body very hard. A player who can skate and hit hard is arguably more intimidating than a player that can fight.

If we had a prospect that had a mean side and could play then we wouldn't need to consider a player like Nolan. But with the team getting younger it could be good to have a player around that can create some space for them.

 

[RAFI BOMB]

Jordan Nolan
Matt Hendricks
Jared Boll
Lance Bouma
Ryan Reaves


Any interest in any of these guys? They are all free agents this summer.

Jordan Nolan would be a decent inexpensive option for 13th forward. Other than him we are better are targeting gritty players that can bring more to the table. Patrick Maroon, Antoine Roussell, James Neal and Evander Kane are all UFA's. Maybe a player like Corey Perry gets bought out and we can sign him. Maybe Wayne Simmonds, Max Domi or Chris Kreider are available and we can trade for them. Some Anaheim fans have suggested that Nick Ritchie could get traded, he would be decent. Maybe we can pry Tom Wilson from Washington.

 

[RAFI BOMB]

how do you address team toughness though? Everyone says their team needs more toughness, but how do you do that? I have zero interest in signing a low-skill player who will be limited to 6 mins of ice time per night, and go around trying to hit people and get in 15-17 fights per year. That doesnt' add any valuable toughness, in my opinion.

To me, team toughness is the culture and identity that the coaches and the organization establish. Toughness is a willingness to block shots. It's a willingness to put in the extra effort to chase loose pucks, to win battles along the boards, and to stand up for team mates when needed (which doesn't exclusively mean you need to drop the gloves if someone gets laid out). Are you, as a player, willing to go balls-out each shift because you know that each of your team mates are willing to do the same? If everyone buys in, then that's team toughness.

Adding some no-skill plugger like Ryan Reaves doesn't do jack if the team isn't prepared to be tough as a group.



edit: I remember Phil Esposito said one time that when he played, he could have hated a team mate off the ice, but on the ice, he'd skate through a wall for the guy. That's toughness. A willingness to do whatever is needed to help your team win.

Partly what makes a tough team is when their skilled players are tough. Anaheim was tough back in the day because it had Geztlaf, Perry, Penner, Kunitz, Pronger and a bunch of other gritty players. Boston had Chara, Lucic, Marchand and had other gritty players like Bergeron and Horton. The Flyers had Simmonds, Schenn and Giroux. The Kings had Richards, Penner, Brown, a handful of other gritty players and key d men like Mitchell and Greene.

One problem the Sens have faced is that they build their grit and toughness almost excursively in depth players. It can still work to some extent because it can create team toughness such as when we had Carkner, Konopka and Neil, but it tends to work a lot better when top six forwards and top four d are mean and nasty. When players like Byfuglien or in the past where players like Chara and Pronger are playing close to 30 minutes a night, it makes the team really hard to play against. Mean and tough players that have the skill to play lots of minutes help build a tough team identity. They drive the compete level and when they are respected as leaders as well other players follow suit. One big thing is the level of compete in players, players that are hyper competitive and hate to lose battle hard. They aren't always mean and nasty but they tend to play with an edge and don't back down.

The identity the Sens need to build is one that is hyper competitive and where players are willing to go to war. That comes from adding players that are mean and nasty and also adding players that want to win and battle hard to win games. The compete level just isn't there most nights, there isn't much passion of intensity in their play and it only happens is spurts. A tough team isn't just a bunch of fighters, it is a hyper competitive team that wants to own the puck and the territory on the ice. It is a team that plays for keeps and and a take no prisoners kind of mentality. Currently I think the Jets and the Bruins have built teams that closely resemble that.

 

[Wallet Inspector]

Toughness is the least of our worries.

Maybe the team should focus on more skilled forwards and actually building a good defense corps.

 

[coladin]

The only way to address team toughness is a change in players. And it hopefully starts with Tkachuk. And supported by McCormick, Boro and on a lesser level Pageau. Stone can give more in that area as well. Ryan can line guys up at times, but he can also do more. Smith is washed up so he needs to go.

We need more heart. Bruins have a lot of heart and they are not a bunch of goons, but they have a wolf pack mentality that is contagious. So I guess what I might be getting at is the culture of the team starts with the captain and supported by the unwavering commitment of the players. This will make everyone play tougher and more committed. Add a couple young guys and things can evolve quickly.

 

[Zorf]

I'd also like for Dorion to make sure that the guys he adds (if he indeed does want to inject some toughness) are guys that can still bring it, and not some washed up loser like Burrows who used to bring it but forgot his balls in Vancouver before moving here.

 

[RAFI BOMB]

Toughness is the least of our worries.

Maybe the team should focus on more skilled forwards and actually building a good defense corps.

I find posts like this to be odd. Did you even read my opening post?
This thread was created to explore the changing role of toughness in the league, what defines a tough team and to explore how the Senators could improve. Claiming that the Senators need to improve their toughness doesn't mean that they don't also need to improve their offensive and defensive skill as well. There are other threads that allow people to discuss that. This thread is to discuss how to improve the toughness of the team.

Additionally, toughness doesn't just mean fighters. It is a style of hockey. One played with intensity, competitiveness and some nastiness. The Senators can improve their skill and toughness simultaneously by signing a player like James Neal or trading for a player like Wayne Simmonds.

You can even rank the need to improve the offense and defense higher than the need to improve toughness, which is fine and makes a lot of sense. But why post in a thread about team toughness that the Sens shouldn't waster their time improving it? It can be a less relevant topic but it still can be worth discussing how to improve.

 

[Sensung]

Interesting how many of the Melnyk defenders are also toughness fans.

 

[RAFI BOMB]

I'd also like for Dorion to make sure that the guys he adds (if he indeed does want to inject some toughness) are guys that can still bring it, and not some washed up loser like Burrows who used to bring it but forgot his balls in Vancouver before moving here.

One of the problems the Sens have had is they have a tendency to shop in the bargain bins and for reclamation projects. They bring in flawed players for cheap and then try to get them to take on roles that they aren't capable of. Your point about Burrows is a good one. He has't been anything like the super pest that he was earlier in his career. When we acquired him I thought we were getting Jarkko Ruutu again. Ruutu was great for the Sens and was a valuable depth forward and he pissed a lot of people off. Burrows doesn't want to be a pest and wants to try to be a player. He doesn't have the skill or skating ability anymore so his only value was in being the biggest POS he could be. But he didn't really embody that at all.

We haven't had a super pest since Ruutu and I think that has been an area that has been lacking. They can hurt the team at times which can be difficult to live with but they also can bring a lot to the table. Kadri didn't a decent job for the leafs after screwing up and getting suspended. We could use a player or two like that.

 

[RAFI BOMB]

Interesting how many of the Melnyk defenders are also toughness fans.

I hate Melnyk and think he is an idiot and a really dumb businessman. There may be Melnyk supporters that are also pro toughness. But there are Melnyk haters that are pro toughness as well.

 

[Sensung]

I hate Melnyk and think he is an idiot and a really dumb businessman. There may be Melnyk supporters that are also pro toughness. But there are Melnyk haters that are pro toughness as well.

True.

Just noticed a trend with some of our regulars.

 

[JungleBeat]

I feel that it makes every player play with more confidence and swagger when you have a tough team. When you know guys are going to stand up for you no matter what you feel better about owning your space, delivering a hit, battling in front of the net, etc...

Big buff is huge part in giving the Jets team toughness, as the buck stops there, but you spice things up with a few more guys and all of a sudden the skill guys play bigger.

That stuff is right from the players' mouthes, as well as apparent watching teams play. Having a Neil and Fisher on the team was huge as an example, along with Chara, and few guys that would get in the mix like Smith.

The team doesn't have to have a bunch of fighters, but when Smith is your toughest and most aggressive forward you're lacking team toughness in my opinion.

I agree that the players have to be good enough to hold down a regular roster spot. There are guys out there like that, they're just a little more rare as it's a unique skill set.

I feel toughness is the least of our worries. Being tough and out muscling the opponent isn’t going to bring us to the playoffs or win any rounds.

You said that the players have to be skilled and hold down a roster spot and I agree with that but those type of players are rare to find, difference makers who are tough like Buff,Simmonds and Benn are unique. That doesn’t mean we should be breaking our backs trying to find one. Guys like Smith,Boro, and McCormick aren’t going to help us at all.


What we need right now is skill and a whole lot of it, speed as well. That’s where the NHL is trending now.

 

[RAFI BOMB]

Personally, I think toughness is fading out of the NHL in favour of speed and skill. Look at what to skill teams in Vegas and San Jose did to two defensively minded tough teams in LA and Anaheim? It was a joke.

That being said, what I really want is this team to develop an identity. I don't see one right now and it bothers me. What are the Sens? A defensive team? A feisty team? A speedy team? A tough team? What are they?

In my mind, the core of the team should dictate what the team identity is, and then the GM should build around that to maximize the talents. With what should be a core of EK, Chabot, Duchene, Stone and Hoffman for at least the next 5 years, that just screams speed and skill. So surround them with speed, skill and possession players.

Sadly though, I fear that this team's identity is Budget Team, and we'll lose a few of those core players over the course of this summer.

**** you Melnyk.

I wonder what the evidence is. Let's look at hits per game as an example. In the playoffs these are the results.

2017-2018
Boston 31.57
Vegas 48
Nashville 30
Pittsburgh 28.33
Washington 27
Winnipeg 31.4
Tampa Bay 30.2
San Jose 23.5

2016-2017 Cup Finalists
Pittsburgh 30.12
Nashville 30.68

2016-2017 Conference Finalists
Ottawa 36.05
Anaheim 30.94

2015-2016 Cup Finalists
Pittsburgh 30.33
San Jose 34.71

2015-2016 Conference Finalists
Tampa Bay 31.17
St Louis 34

2014-2015 Cup Finalists
Tampa Bay 32.11
Chicago 29.26

2014-2015 Conference Finalists
Anaheim 41.19
New York 31.47

Overall there doesn't seem to be much of a trend of any decrease in hitting. The data suggests that successful teams average around 30 hits per game in the playoffs.

The league is moving towards more speed and skill but that doesn't mean physicality is less important. It is also difficult to tell what causal factors would lead to any perceived decrease in hitting. Could the perception of hitting being down by caused by stricter fines, and suspensions? Maybe the type of hits have changed, maybe there are less blind side hits. Physicality is still important and will continue to be important in the league.

 

[RAFI BOMB]

True.

Just noticed a trend with some of our regulars.

It could be an age thing. Older fans may resonate with Melnyk more and be more inclined to value elements of hockey that they grew up around. The NHL is far less tough than it used to be decades ago.

 

[Zorf]

I wonder what the evidence is. Let's look at hits per game as an example. In the playoffs these are the results.

...
lots of stats
...

Overall there doesn't seem to be much of a trend of any decrease in hitting. The data suggests that successful teams average around 30 hits per game in the playoffs.

The league is moving towards more speed and skill but that doesn't mean physicality is less important. It is also difficult to tell what causal factors would lead to any perceived decrease in hitting. Could the perception of hitting being down by caused by stricter fines, and suspensions? Maybe the type of hits have changed, maybe there are less blind side hits. Physicality is still important and will continue to be important in the league.

I'm not trying to imply that physicality isn't important, because hitting and body contact is one of the best ways to separate player from puck, but the Sens are woefully underskilled in many areas, and regardless of how much physicality you have, you need skill to keep the puck. Anyone not named Hoffman, Duchene, Stone or Karlsson on the Senators roster (can probably add Chabot too) can't hold onto the puck worth a damn. So sure, the Sens can hit and take the puck away, but they lose it just as quickly, and that's due to a lack of speed and skill in 13 spots on the active roster.

 

[RAFI BOMB]

I'm not trying to imply that physicality isn't important, because hitting and body contact is one of the best ways to separate player from puck, but the Sens are woefully underskilled in many areas, and regardless of how much physicality you have, you need skill to keep the puck. Anyone not named Hoffman, Duchene, Stone or Karlsson on the Senators roster (can probably add Chabot too) can't hold onto the puck worth a damn. So sure, the Sens can hit and take the puck away, but they lose it just as quickly, and that's due to a lack of speed and skill in 13 spots on the active roster.

The Sens suck in almost all areas. I think we can all agree that there are a ton of holes in the roster. I agree entirely we aren't going to start winning by just adding a bunch of toughness. There is some room for excitement amongst the prospects though. We get a top pick this year which should be an impact player and then we have Brown, Batherson and Formenton who all look like they will be very good NHL players. On top of that we have a number of other forward prospects that could still be decent with White, Chlapik, Paul, Gagne and Luchuk. Then on defense we still have Jaros, Wolanin, Englund and Lajoie.

I think we should give a number of them opportunities to crack the roster and then surround them with toughness and ideally tough and skilled players.

 

[Zorf]

The Sens suck in almost all areas. I think we can all agree that there are a ton of holes in the roster. I agree entirely we aren't going to start winning by just adding a bunch of toughness. There is some room for excitement amongst the prospects though. We get a top pick this year which should be an impact player and then we have Brown, Batherson and Formenton who all look like they will be very good NHL players. On top of that we have a number of other forward prospects that could still be decent with White, Chlapik, Paul, Gagne and Luchuk. Then on defense we still have Jaros, Wolanin, Englund and Lajoie.

I think we should give a number of them opportunities to crack the roster and then surround them with toughness and ideally tough and skilled players.

Oh, there's no doubt that the Sens need to make a youth movement. Look at Boston this year! They've got tons of young players who were allowed to grow into important roles. Sens need to stop the veteran stop gaps and let kids play and make mistakes. It'll pay off in the long run.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

Oh, there's no doubt that the Sens need to make a youth movement. Look at Boston this year! They've got tons of young players who were allowed to grow into important roles. Sens need to stop the veteran stop gaps and let kids play and make mistakes. It'll pay off in the long run.

With Boucher ? He'd hate to be forced into that... and the results will likely reflect that

 

[Zorf]

With Boucher ? He'd hate to be forced into that... and the results will likely reflect that

Dorion did say in his presser that there will be more of a youth focus. Also, Boucher will need to work with the team that Dorion gives him, so if there's a nothing but young kids, Boucher won't have much of a choice.

It also appears that Dorion set that down as a condition of his continued employment. That's the impression that I got.

 

[topshelf15]

We do need a heavier game on the forecheck for sure,as well as some grit on the blueline...Anybody saying we dont is lying