Ottawa Senators Team Toughness

RAFI BOMB

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May 11, 2016
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This thread is designed to discuss the current status of team toughness as well as what changes may need to be made moving forward. This thread is also designed to explore the evolving role of toughness in the NHL, in particular what constitutes "toughness" both in the league currently, projections of how it may look in the future and which elements are becoming or are currently antiquated.

Another function of this thread is to aggregate all "toughness" related discussions into a singular thread and minimize its discussion elsewhere. This allows those who enjoy discussing and see value in toughness to have a forum to discuss and for those that do not want to be bothered by it, to be minimized to its exposure. I respectfully request that if you are a pure anti-toughness person, who doesn't see value in it and doesn't enjoy discussing it to find somewhere else to post.

With respect to the Senators, they have seen a decrease in tougher players recently. Chris Neil retired, Marc Methot was lost in the expansion, Dion Phaneuf was traded and even a more moderately physical player like Clarke MacArthur sustained what looks to be a career ending injury. There has also been some speculation that Zack Smith could be traded. Aside from Mark Borowiecki, there are few players on the roster that are prominent hitters, fighters or agitators. There appears to be a need to build the toughness of the roster back up, but part of the question is what does toughness look like and what is the ideal to strive towards?

The role of a pure enforcer is a dying or dead concept. There is still some effectiveness to fighting but it is much less effective. If that is an area to improve, the current free agent class of fighters are: Ryan Reaves, Jordan Nolan, Jared Boll, Anthony Peluso, Luke Gazdic, Brandon Bollig, Pierre-Cedric Labrie, Brandon Mashinter, Tom Sestito. The majority seem like AHL players, so if fighters are necessary are they better to be in the AHL and only called up if needed? Are fighters needed in the AHL these days?

The more important question is what kind of player represents the ideal template for toughness in the league? Is it Dustin Byfuglien, Brent Burns, Matthew Tkachuk, Wayne Simmonds, James Neal, Brad Marchand? Is it a skilled player than can skate and is nasty to play against? Is it a player who has massive hits either open ice or along the boards? Is it a player that roughs the opposition up around the net and in the corners? Is it a player who is a super pest?

What is the best template for toughness and what kinds of players should the Senators pursue via free agency or trade if they want to build a tough team?
 

RAFI BOMB

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Get more true power forwards. Guy that aren't afraid to hit nor are they afraid to score goals.

To clarify, do you see part of the issue is that not enough of the forwards are willing to drive hard to the net and create more of a net front presence? That did seem lacking this season. It didn't seem like we had many players that were willing to battle hard around the net and in the crease and score the dirty goals. I wonder how much that hurt our offensive production and what percentage of offensive production of successful teams is based on dirty goals right around the net.
 
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FolignoQuantumLeap

Don't Hold The Door
Mar 16, 2009
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This is probably something Dorion and Lee will attempt to address while ignoring the actual scoring, defending, coaching and goaltending issues the team has.

Trade Hoffman and Karlsson, draft Tkachuk, 2 more years for Burrows sign Leo Komarov to a 5 year deal.
 
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Sens of Anarchy

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Jul 9, 2013
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This is probably something Dorion and Lee will attempt to address while ignoring the actual scoring, defending, coaching and goaltending issues the team has.
Lee has stocked the cupboards full with tough guys hasn't he.. They mastered putting their skates on last year. Watch out this year
 

Do Make Say Think

& Yet & Yet
Jun 26, 2007
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Definitely lacking this season.

But toughness is hard to muster when you suck this much.

The biggest issue is lack of toughness in our top 6/4. We lost a lot of quality bite in Methot and Phaneuf.

Dorion tried to make our bottom 6 tougher since landing offensively talented players who are also effective with the body is extremely difficult to do.

This is the make/break point for my opinion on Dorion: he needs to rebound something fierce. I believe he can though.
 

RAFI BOMB

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May 11, 2016
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This is probably something Dorion and Lee will attempt to address while ignoring the actual scoring, defending, coaching and goaltending issues the team has.

Trade Hoffman and Karlsson, draft Tkachuk, 2 more years for Burrows sign Leo Komarov to a 5 year deal.

With respect to Tkachuk, part of it is to clarify what his actual potential is. The head of ISS claimed he had 1st line centre potential and Craig Button has him right up their with Svechnikov and Zadina. His production thus far doesn't imply that he should score a lot but reputable scouts seem some offensive talent there. If he actually has the upside to put up 70 points and be a super pest then he is a good option.

Secondly, I created this thread to discuss the changing role of toughness as well. Dorion and Lee could improve the toughness and the team. Wayne Simmonds and Max Domi are both trade candidates. Corey Perry could be bought out or traded at a major discount. Evander Kane and James Neal are UFAs that would improve the top six. Antoine Roussell and Patrick Maroon are both UFAs that would be an improvement over much of our bottom six. There was also some speculation earlier in the year that Byfuglien could get traded.

The toughness of the team does need to improve, although it is less important than scoring, defending, coaching and goaltending.

If we did in fact trade both Hoffman and Karlsson, I would expect we would get a substantial return. But I am not that confident in Dorion's able to evaluate a reasonable return.
 

RAFI BOMB

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Definitely lacking this season.

But toughness is hard to muster when you suck this much.

The biggest issue is lack of toughness in our top 6/4. We lost a lot of quality bite in Methot and Phaneuf.

Dorion tried to make our bottom 6 tougher since landing offensively talented players who are also effective with the body is extremely difficult to do.

This is the make/break point for my opinion on Dorion: he needs to rebound something fierce. I believe he can though.

The bolded has been an issue for a long time and we always end up creating gaps there or failing to fill them. We had Andy Sutton and Anton Volchenkov and let them both go in free agency. We then had Methot and Phaneuf and now they are both gone. Have we ever had a tough top six forward? The closest thing would probably be Foligno and we traded him away before he emerged as a true top six guy.

Even the depth players aren't very tough. Burrows can't really play and doesn't play like a pest. Smith and Pageau weren't very physical or chippy this year. Pyatt isn't physical. Thompson hit a little but wasn't very mean. Dumont apparently was chippy but that didn't come across as effective during his stint here.

The Senators need a get some top six forwards and top 4 d that play with a real edge.
 
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Dino Tkachuk

Ottawa Senators
Jan 6, 2009
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Definitely lacking this season.

But toughness is hard to muster when you suck this much.

The biggest issue is lack of toughness in our top 6/4. We lost a lot of quality bite in Methot and Phaneuf.

Dorion tried to make our bottom 6 tougher since landing offensively talented players who are also effective with the body is extremely difficult to do.

This is the make/break point for my opinion on Dorion: he needs to rebound something fierce. I believe he can though.
"Quality bite" - I like that and it's very true.

What I have noticed over the last 3 or 4 years is that players really are fearing the headshot. They understand that these can lead to career and, sometimes, life threatening injuries. The regular season is full of "fly bys" and high skill play.

What we are seeing in the playoffs is that, for the next 3 months at least, old time hockey is back. No more missed checks, blowing the zone early etc.

This leads me to the opinion that I'm looking for gritty skill, or quality bite as said above. I think you can have 1 or 2 Hoffman-type players on your team but no more. The remainder need to be able to bring skill first but grit can't be far behind. You can't have a team of Nylanders...
 
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RAFI BOMB

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"Quality bite" - I like that and it's very true.

What I have noticed over the last 3 or 4 years is that players really are fearing the headshot. They understand that these can lead to career and, sometimes, life threatening injuries. The regular season is full of "fly bys" and high skill play.

What we are seeing in the playoffs is that, for the next 3 months at least, old time hockey is back. No more missed checks, blowing the zone early etc.

This leads me to the opinion that I'm looking for gritty skill, or quality bite as said above. I think you can have 1 or 2 Hoffman-type players on your team but no more. The remainder need to be able to bring skill first but grit can't be far behind. You can't have a team of Nylanders...

This is a relevant point. There is a style of hockey that tends to be successful in the playoffs and in some ways necessary to go deep. The gritty physical style that makes every inch of ice a battle and makes everyone pay for leaving themselves vulnerable to get hit. It would be helpful for the Senators to fill out their roster with tough and physical players that are also skilled. We need some meanness and nastiness to the roster. There are certainly skilled players that have a real edge to their game and that is huge to have come playoff time.
 
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aragorn

Do The Right Thing
Aug 8, 2004
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What is important on any roster is a balance of skill, skating, toughness & size. If we can get that in one player that would be great but most of the time every player is missing something. Simmons is a guy I would have liked to go after a few yrs ago but a number of the players already mentioned are older & on the downside of their careers. Evander Kane would be a good pick up but after the playoffs he has had with San Jose I imagine they will re-sign him pretty quickly.

Ottawa does have a number of prospects coming with a combination of size & skill & some toughness. I'm not advocating for a team of them because I think there is room for a prolific scorer like Hoffman but he has to give a crap in every game regardless of the score. I would like to get rid of any quitters or those guys that just fly by, I want to see a hit everytime there is an opportunity. I understand it's a long season & most players wait for the playoffs to play a gritty game but it would be nice to see a tougher team mentality & physically & specifically a team that never gives up or quits at any time. IMO this team needs to build for the future & they need to see what they have & who can play that tougher, grittier role.

I like Brown because he has good size & should have good leverage & reach & a nice combination of size & skill that's needed more. I like Batherson & Formenton because I think they will bring an edge to their game that Ottawa can use & a much grittier game than Brown. Harpur, Jaros, Englund all have size & some edge to their games & once in Ottawa could also help the blueline. Paul, Gagne, Rodewald & JOB if they are still around & can make the NHL team will also add some size & grit to the bottom six.

However IMO Boro continues to be the only guy who can drop the gloves, if that is required, with anyone & he wants to do that less. A few other guys will go but within their weight class. Ottawa could use one big tough guy who can also play like a younger Simmons, Stewart or Reese. I don't want to see a roster spot taken by an older tough guy especially since they are trying to take it out of the game but I would love to see them add a younger one like a Tom Wilson who can skate & is effective in several roles to go with all the skilled players they have coming.
 
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FolignoQuantumLeap

Don't Hold The Door
Mar 16, 2009
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With respect to Tkachuk, part of it is to clarify what his actual potential is. The head of ISS claimed he had 1st line centre potential and Craig Button has him right up their with Svechnikov and Zadina. His production thus far doesn't imply that he should score a lot but reputable scouts seem some offensive talent there. If he actually has the upside to put up 70 points and be a super pest then he is a good option.

Secondly, I created this thread to discuss the changing role of toughness as well. Dorion and Lee could improve the toughness and the team. Wayne Simmonds and Max Domi are both trade candidates. Corey Perry could be bought out or traded at a major discount. Evander Kane and James Neal are UFAs that would improve the top six. Antoine Roussell and Patrick Maroon are both UFAs that would be an improvement over much of our bottom six. There was also some speculation earlier in the year that Byfuglien could get traded.

The toughness of the team does need to improve, although it is less important than scoring, defending, coaching and goaltending.

If we did in fact trade both Hoffman and Karlsson, I would expect we would get a substantial return. But I am not that confident in Dorion's able to evaluate a reasonable return.
Toughness in modern hockey is durability and tolerance for pain. 82 games and still the last playoff spots are usually determined by a couple points. Losing a key player for any extended period can often tank a team's whole season like Tampa last year. The ones you want are the ones who keep their bodies in absolute peak condition to be able to go every night. The game keeps getting faster and the collisions get that much more dangerous.

The best example of toughness is a guy like Karlsson playing with 2 breaks in his foot last year to carry this team to a conference final. Same with Alfredsson when he played with broken ribs from a Chara slap shot. Couturier yesterday playing with a bum knee and scoring 5 points.

Fighting is sometimes necessary but most often just a detriment to the team like in the case of Borowiecki. He'll put us down to 5 dmen and he's now got a history of concussions.

A big reason this team is so bad is because management highly valued "nasty tough" players like Smith and Burrows who are completely useless on the ice. We don't need to keep prioritizing that kind of player anymore.
 

RAFI BOMB

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Toughness in modern hockey is durability and tolerance for pain. 82 games and still the last playoff spots are usually determined by a couple points. Losing a key player for any extended period can often tank a team's whole season like Tampa last year. The ones you want are the ones who keep their bodies in absolute peak condition to be able to go every night. The game keeps getting faster and the collisions get that much more dangerous.

The best example of toughness is a guy like Karlsson playing with 2 breaks in his foot last year to carry this team to a conference final. Same with Alfredsson when he played with broken ribs from a Chara slap shot. Couturier yesterday playing with a bum knee and scoring 5 points.

Fighting is sometimes necessary but most often just a detriment to the team like in the case of Borowiecki. He'll put us down to 5 dmen and he's now got a history of concussions.

A big reason this team is so bad is because management highly valued "nasty tough" players like Smith and Burrows who are completely useless on the ice. We don't need to keep prioritizing that kind of player anymore.

That is one definition of toughness but it isn't really the common definition for what is considered a tough team. I agree that fighting is much less relevant and arguably. A tough team is in part a team that can battle through adversity but it is also a team that is hell to play against. I provided a list earlier to potentially good examples of what the new template of toughness should look like. Players like Dustin Byfuglien, Brent Burns, Brad Marchand, Wayne Simmonds, James Neal and Matthew Tkachuk are good examples. All can play, all have skill, all can skate and all can put up points.

Would you not want those players on your team? These hyper competitive types that battle hard and make life miserable for their opponents are very valuable for the playoffs. I understand your concern that it is easy for management to give up too much speed and skill, if they are overly focused on a certain type of player. But that doesn't mean that nasty players who are actually skilled are not worth pursuing. Even by a "nasty tough" standard did you see anything about Burrows or Smith that adequately met those standards? I saw 2 players who were neither skilled nor consistently physical or irritating to play against.

I think we should surround our high quality prospects with skilled nasty players. I agree that we shouldn't just sacrifice skill to attain it, but we would benefit from adding a few top six forwards and top 4 d that are actually hard to play against.
 
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jbeck5

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Jan 26, 2009
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I haven't yet read all the posts, but i believe what is needed, and has always been needed, is size and skill and speed. It's very valuable, but isn't usually taught. You need those naturally big,mean,skilled players.

We have skilled players. Karlsson, duchene, hoffman, etc. Heck, we even have a big skilled player in stone. The problem with stone is that he's not fast and mean. He's not someone to go on the forcheck and ram the other teams best defenseman through the glass.

We have big players with toughness/skill like zack smith, but he refuses to play that way.

We have toughness in borowiecki but he isn't very skilled or big so he can get thrown around in a tilt, and you don't want him on the ice for most of the game.

We have mean guys like mcormmick but he's 4'8.

I can't think of specific players on specific teams right now, but when i watch other teams, i often see some big guy with wheels go hard on the forecheck and retrieve pucks and have enough skill to make plays. We need a couple of those to put on our third and 4th lines with guys like pageau, white, etc.

These guys are never on the market, so they have to be drafted. We gotta start drafting guys who are 6'2-6'4 with speed and skill and a bit of a mean streak.
 
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TheBradyBunch

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Dec 17, 2008
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He will cost way, way too much based on his name, but Rick Nash would be a great addition. He's a perfect middle-6 winger. Good for 25 goals and 45 pts per 82 and a very good defensive player. Not physical but big and fast. Too bad he will likely get a contract similar to Marleau's.
 

RAFI BOMB

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May 11, 2016
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We need a modern day Neil..which essentially is Marchand although he's a better point getter.

They don't come UFA's until they are worn out.

The closest player to a prime Chris Neil would likely be Tom Wilson. There might be a chance that Washington would trade him but it is unlikely. Wayne Simmonds might be available for trade this summer. In terms of free agents, if you are looking for a Neil type that can fight and hit and be a pest the options would be Ryan Reaves, Jordan Nolan, Patrick Maroon and Antoine Roussell.
 

Do Make Say Think

& Yet & Yet
Jun 26, 2007
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Maybe I am not being honest in my evaluation of him but Rick Nash has been painfully mediocre so far in the playoffs.

Everytime I see him on the ice I am dumb-founded as to how a competent group like the Bruins' management could give up so much for so little.

I guess extra depth is always nice, can't deny that. But he looks as disengaged as I ever seen Rick Nash be disengaged, which means he looks like he don't give any kind of ****.
 

FolignoQuantumLeap

Don't Hold The Door
Mar 16, 2009
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That is one definition of toughness but it isn't really the common definition for what is considered a tough team. I agree that fighting is much less relevant and arguably. A tough team is in part a team that can battle through adversity but it is also a team that is hell to play against. I provided a list earlier to potentially good examples of what the new template of toughness should look like. Players like Dustin Byfuglien, Brent Burns, Brad Marchand, Wayne Simmonds, James Neal and Matthew Tkachuk are good examples. All can play, all have skill, all can skate and all can put up points.

Would you not want those players on your team? These hyper competitive types that battle hard and make life miserable for their opponents are very valuable for the playoffs. I understand your concern that it is easy for management to give up too much speed and skill, if they are overly focused on a certain type of player. But that doesn't mean that nasty players who are actually skilled are not worth pursuing. Even by a "nasty tough" standard did you see anything about Burrows or Smith that adequately met those standards? I saw 2 players who were neither skilled nor consistently physical or irritating to play against.

I think we should surround our high quality prospects with skilled nasty players. I agree that we shouldn't just sacrifice skill to attain it, but we would benefit from adding a few top six forwards and top 4 d that are actually hard to play against.
Brent Burns isn't tough at all. That's been a big knock on him for awhile. Simmonds was a total no show in the playoffs for the Flyers against one of the least tough teams by your standard in the NHL that are looking for a 3peat. Tiny Vegas absolutely man handled the big tough LA Kings.

Guys like Marchand and Neal I would value for their skill. IMO when they are "tough" they're a huge detriment to their teams. They fly off the handle take horrible penalties and get suspended for cheap shots. They're much better when they're focused on scoring and not hurting the opposition.

I just want good hockey players who play with speed and skill. How hard they hit or chirp is so far down the list of my priorities when looking for players.

Like I said, the way the Sens have prioritized this idea of toughness and size is a huge reason why they are where they are. We've been trying to build a roster for the early 90s while the rest of the league movies ahead. If they continue to do so, we're going to be in basement for a long long time.
 

BonkTastic

ಠ_ಠ
Nov 9, 2010
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He will cost way, way too much based on his name, but Rick Nash would be a great addition. He's a perfect middle-6 winger. Good for 25 goals and 45 pts per 82 and a very good defensive player. Not physical but big and fast. Too bad he will likely get a contract similar to Marleau's.

He's already blocked a trade to Ottawa once. That ship sailed a long, long time ago.

Doubt he wants to be part of this mess in the twilight years of his career - he's all about chasing a cup now.
 

Beville

#ForTheBoys
Mar 4, 2011
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We just need 4 x Wayne Simmonds, a Lucic and a Brown.

Other than that, Smith needs to pull his finger out big time. If you’re not going to score, play tough instead. Burrows - what even is you role as a player anymore?

Boro I’m fine with, at least he tries and he doesn’t seem to back down from many people. Only problem is he isn’t exactly an offensive powerhouse. Need more of a prime time Phaneuf on the back end - that could be a Ceci based trade perhaps.
 

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