Line Combos: Ottawa Senators Defence

Discussion in 'Ottawa Senators' started by WhiteLight*, Sep 20, 2014.

  1. MtRundle

    MtRundle We once were warriors.

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    There's a difference between being "our best D" and playing sheltered minutes against weaker competition. I like him if he's played where he should be- A 5/6 who plays a bit on the PK.

    Him and Cowen are both too slow to be paired together and together lack too much hockey IQ to be a good pairing IMO
     
  2. aragorn

    aragorn #Boucherout

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    1. The problem with keeping 8 defencemen is that 2 don't play in every game & young defencemen as well as older ones need to play to stay sharp & hone their skills. Given that Ceci is quite young & has a two way contract & is waiver exempt it doesn't hurt the team or Ceci to be sent back to Bingo, it's a numbers thing.

    2. The reason they don't trade Gryba is that he is a right shot & only Karlsson & Ceci are also right shots. All the other defencemen of the 8 are left shots & PM has shown a tendency to play guys on their natural side. While a couple of them could & have played the right side before for most defencemen playing their natural side is usually where they are the most effective offensively & defensively. Some guys can't play their off side, Cowen had trouble playing the right side, as did Phillips.

    3. Turning a defenceman into a forward is much easier said than done considering the positions are so different from each other, not everyone can do it easily. We should also keep in mind that they have 13 forwards or more who have an opportunity to win a roster spot. In fact, of those 13 forwards only Stone & Zibanejad are waiver exempt & I doubt any defenceman is going to replace either of those two guys. So they won't be turning a defenceman into a forward anytime soon.

    4. Phillips is signed & though I disagreed with it then & still do, there is nothing to be done, he is on the team, we need to get over it. That said, extending Boro was a head scratcher as well but even Pierre McGuire said he thought Boro was more valuable to the team than either Wiercioch or Gryba. So they are on the team & we have to live with it.

    5. Cowen was a 9th overall pick & this management team was hoping that he would have exerted himself by now. However, he had a major knee injury in junior, then he had a major hip injury in Bingo & last yr he missed training camp due to a contract dispute. He is the wildcard in that he is expected to be a top 4 defencemen but he has yet to show he can handle top 4 duties. He almost seems better suited to play in the bottom pairing with his size & on the PK. Cowen is also a tough SOB & with Neil aging Cowen could turn into this team's new enforcer especially again if he is playing bottom pairing minutes. It really is up to Cowen where he plays in this lineup & he needs to show management where his skills are best suited.

    6. That leaves us with Methot or Wiercioch, one is younger one older, one is better offensively, the other better defensively. Methot they could probably get more of a return while Wiercioch might have to be packaged with other players to get a decent return. Wiercioch is signed to a very good contract while Methot wants to be extended to a hefty increase in pay to stay. What to do, what to do? I would move Methot at the trade deadline when he could return a decent pick or player. Wiercioch is still quite young & will get better as he puts on more weight & learns to play defence in the NHL. We have already seen his ability to pass & score from the blueline & he can learn the defensive side of things while Methot's skills will soon decline with age.
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2014
  3. God Says No

    God Says No Registered User

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    There was nothing sheltered about Gryba. He played against best players.
     
  4. CanadianGuest

    CanadianGuest Registered User

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    I voted trade Wiercioch, but that might not be possible, or at least not get a near equal value in return.

    Second option, IMO, would be to trade one of Cowen or Methot, as I personally believe neither is top line quality, and they both can't play 2nd line with Ceci moving forward. Cowen needs to show he's rebounded before proper value could be attained, and Methot would end up being a sign and trade, and I don't like the idea of a sign and trade.

    Phillips, Gryba, Borowiecki, and Wiercioch are fine as bottom pairing and depth D. Claesson is ready for some NHL time in case of injury, maybe Wideman in a stretch for bodies.

    If Cowen or Methot could be traded for a proper partner for Karlsson, that could fix some of the issues with the Ottawa D. Methot is 6 years and 7 months older than Cowen, yes, but that is a good thing since it increases Cowen's trade value over Methot.

    I would trade Cowen straight up, or if the trade needs a value increase, package, and this is where it always goes wrong in trade scenarios, but package Cowen with one of Phillips, Gryba, Borowiecki, or Wiercioch, whichever one the trade partner prefers based on their situation, for a complimentary partner for Karlsson. Different people shudder over this thought because one of their favorite players may be included, or scoff that a player they deem worthless is included. There are reasons to keep all four of the depth defenseman listed, but if we want a top pairing player, value has to be given, and none of them are untouchables, not really.

    As a last thought, keeping eight D with the belief that one will get hurt and drop the team to a more appropriate number is borderline morbid. Yes players get hurt, expecting it to happen, soon, just waiting for it to happen, is borderline morbid. How long should the team keep that extra D handy waiting for the injury? And when the injury does happen, do we exclaim, finally?!? Then proclaim isn't it great we were prepared for that, now we don't have to wait for four hours for a player to arrive from Binghamton to sit in the press box. It would require two defensemen to get hurt at the same time to justify carrying eight all the time. BTW, Ceci and Claesson are waiver exempt for the entire '14-'15 season. Wideman is waiver exempt until he appears in 60 NHL games in '14-'15.
     
  5. Hammertyme

    Hammertyme Registered User

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    Can you imagine him being pounded in the corners by the big d. He avoids hits with his speed and agility. In the other zone he wouldnt have the same amount of time.
     
  6. Sensinitis

    Sensinitis Registered User

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    Looking forward to seeing how the D shapes up this season.
     
  7. Xspyrit

    Xspyrit Registered User

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    lol can't wait for the season to start so it will shuffle opinions a bit, it's so stuck in 2013-14 right now. Thing is, a new story is about to begin.

    Made 1 500 000$ last season and will make 2 700 000$ this year. Nothing outrageous for a #4-6 D-man in today's NHL

    lol even last year he was more than a 800K D-men...

    Fixed (Gryba is RD, Phillips is LD)

    And about converting Karlsson to forward
    Karlsson-Zibanejad-Ryan
    MacArthur-Turris-Stone
    Michalek-Legwand-Chiasson
    Smith-Pageau-Lazar
    Hoffman/Neil

    Bye Condra & Greening, hi Elite forward group.
     
  8. Derivation

    Derivation Registered User

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    Methot- Karlsson
    Cowen -Ceci
    Phillips - Rotate Boro/Wier/Gryba for 6th man


    I know some of you would like Phillips to be "8th man", but for 2.5 mil. I just don't see that being the plan unless he has regressed from has horrible 2013-2014 year any further.

    I expect Phillips to play a more simple veteran style D game this year and earn at least a 5th-6th spot every night.
     
  9. OttawaSenators11

    OttawaSenators11 #25 FTW

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    I would probably lean towards trading Weir.

    In the end though, this d is very bad on paper.

    lets hope for big time improvement.
     
  10. bert

    bert Registered User

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    Why is it that everyone wants to trade the D man with potentially the highest upside? I am curious.

    Is the idea that as sens fans we want all our D to be physical, and slow moving (mentally) Boro, Gryba, Cowen and Phillips all have limited offensive creativity/ability. Statistically the team was much better with Wiercioch in the lineup.

    Outside of Karlsson and when Ceci got here this group could not get the puck out controlled.

    In my opinion he is the last of the bubble group that should be traded.
     
  11. NyQuil

    NyQuil F.Y.R.O.U.S.

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    I picked trade Patrick Wiercioch because he might actually have some value.

    I'm definitely on the fence on this.

    Not sure you would get anything for anyone else.

    Having three puck-moving D would be nice in theory - plus you have some redundancy if one of them goes down.

    I do think the long-term competitiveness of the team in the playoffs will rely on guys like Cowen and Methot being able to play big, tough minutes in the top 4.
     
  12. OttawaSenators11

    OttawaSenators11 #25 FTW

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    For me, i think we have enough scoring from our d offensively (with Ceci here) and rather have more toughness/physical play on the back end.
    Wier is too soft for me personally.
    Edit: plus the trade value as NyQuil said.
     
  13. operasen

    operasen Registered User

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    If BM could pull a Methot and Condra/Geening to Nashville for RD Ellis and a pick.

    Cowen - Karlsson
    Wiercioch - Ceci
    Phillips - Ellis
    Gryba, Borowiecki
     
  14. tony d

    tony d HFBoards Sponsor Sponsor

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    Trade Gryba
     
  15. God Says No

    God Says No Registered User

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    Why? He was our best D last year.
     
  16. Sensinitis

    Sensinitis Registered User

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    Gryba our best d last year looooooooooooooool.
     
  17. aragorn

    aragorn #Boucherout

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    I agree with you on Wiercioch but here are the problems with that.
    - they re-signed Phillips to 2 yrs & Boro to 3 yrs, it's quite likely they don't plan to move either of those guys
    - Cowen was a top 10 overall pick & while he hasn't performed up to expectations, he will likely be given another yr to prove himself before they decide what to do with him. IMO he can play bottom pairing minutes but I expect they want him in the top 2 pairings. We'll see this yr, if he has improved enough to get there.
    - Ceci most likely has that 2nd pairing right side job if & when a defenceman is traded & they have room for him on the roster. He has shown he is as good as Wiercioch already, he's a home town boy & he plays the right side.
    - Gryba I think has the 3rd pairing right side job because it's his natural side & he is cheap & plays a good defensive role for the team. If he is challenged it could come from Grant in Bingo who also plays the right side & is big & more offensive minded.
    - Methot is the wild card, if he signs than it's quite likely Wiercioch will be moved but if Methot does not get signed than he could be traded & Wiercioch stays. It should not be between these two but all the other D have reasons why they will not get traded, at least not at the beginning of the yr except for Methot & Wiercioch that is. Wiercioch is also a left shot & Ottawa has a lot of left shot defencemen, 5 in Ottawa & Claesson, Sdao & Johnson in Bingo, Englund, Wikstrand & Harpur coming.
     
  18. ReginKarlssonLehner

    ReginKarlssonLehner Let's Win It All

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    This is the biggest key and one of our biggest problems last year.

    Before Ceci got here, Karlsson was the only one who got the puck out and even then the forwards were acting stupid when he tried to get it to him.

    Ceci brought so much stability. When we lost Gonchar and Benoit it was terrible. Hopefully Cowen/Wier improve next year and give us a better threat.

    Gryba was really good at getting the puck out but lol Phillips.
     

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