Line Combos: Ottawa 2016-2017 thoughts

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Hale The Villain

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It's not so much Lazar's hockey IQ that scares me as much as his utter lack of talent. Kid makes Chris Neil look like an all-star at times with his choppy stick handling, frequent mishandling of the puck, missed passes and flubbed shots.

I don't see a player with the talent to produce much playing against the best hockey players in the world. I see a 20-30 point guy with the potential to produce in the 30-40 point range if he regains his scoring touch and gets put in more offensive opportunities.
 

Sensinitis

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Aug 5, 2012
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I literally haven't seen one glimpse of offensive IQ from Lazar in the NHL yet.

I think you're being really hard on him. I've seen many of those plays.

Don't forget that when you have young players in the NHL who aren't physical beasts like Ekblad or Brown (I'm projecting lol), or who don't have a generational skillset (McDavid), lots of shifts are about "surviving". Keeping your head up, not getting decked, making a safe defensive play, trying to gain the blue-line, getting some shots off, etc.

Mix that with being jerked around like a ragdoll on LW, C, RW on a daily basis and sometimes on a shift-by-shift basis. Mix that with getting limited opportunities and not knowing WTF you're supposed to do...

...aaaaand you just got a review of Lazar. This season we'll see his true colours. He puts up under 30 pts again and we'll know that he's pretty much a slightly better version of Condra. If he improves enough we know he might have Callahan potential.
 

Samsquanch

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I literally haven't seen one glimpse of offensive IQ from Lazar in the NHL yet.

There are always young guys who stuggle, but you can see that they have the ability in flashes throughout their early years (I.E Zib).

I know I'm likely going to be chastised, and it's fair enough, but I don't see anything more than a lunch pail guy who gets by on his hard work who will chip in ~10/15g-20a on an average year.

If you're waiting for Lazar to break out and start dangling his way down the ice through multiple defenders, you're setting your self up for disappointment.

He's not a flashy player at all, and never has been.

Players like Lazar who depend less on their vision and hands, and rely more on their positioning, strength and physical tools (like his shot), and have more of a north-south mindset as opposed to east-west, are going to take longer to develop offensively. Especially if they are played on the 4th line with 4th line caliber players.

He was one of the best junior players in the world, and the captain of a gold medal wining team. He didn't stumble his way onto the top line with Connor McDavid either. Smart hockey minds recognized that despite his lack of flashy moves, his game has A LOT of useful elements that can help a team win.

Go watch the WJC again if you want to see how he might look one day in his prime against his peers. It may not be flashy, but we shouldn't care about him being flashy, we want him to be effective, which he has proven he can be when put in a position to succeed.
 

Samsquanch

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It's not so much Lazar's hockey IQ that scares me as much as his utter lack of talent. Kid makes Chris Neil look like an all-star at times with his choppy stick handling, frequent mishandling of the puck, missed passes and flubbed shots.

I don't see a player with the talent to produce much playing against the best hockey players in the world. I see a 20-30 point guy with the potential to produce in the 30-40 point range if he regains his scoring touch and gets put in more offensive opportunities.

I don't know how many of you guys have played competitive sports or not, but all of these problems that you see with lazar's current game can be attributed to one thing; confidence (or lack thereof).

Confidence can turn the worst player on the bench into a superstar if he believes in himself, but it can also work the other way around. If anyone actually doubts that Lazar can make or receive a pass at a high level, or that his talent as a hockey player is similar to Chris Neils, needs to go re-watch the WJC before saying that again.

Lazar is a good hockey player. He's just seriously lacking confidence right now after having an up and down year where he didn't seem to fit anywhere in the lineup. That's tough on a 20yr old kid who's game isn't built on being an offensive dynamo with the puck.

Boucher is going to give him a well defined role, and a chance to play with guys who are a tier above the 4th line players that he's been stapled to thus far in his career, and we are going to see a different player (or not, and Im wrong about everything).

I'd put a lot of money on him coming around, personally.
 

danielpalfredsson

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The unfortunate thing for Lazar is that he is probably not going to get a chance as a centre on the Senators.

With that said, at right wing it looks like he should get some prime opportunities this year. The 3RW spot should be his to lose. Outside of playing a lefty on their off wing or a PTO being brought in who plays above expectations, there isn't anybody who can realistically challenge Lazar for that spot. Being slotted on the third line next to Pageau is a solid opportunity. Although it is a small sample size and everybody on the team were playing way over their heads, Lazar had one of his best stretches of his career at the end of 14-15 playing with Pageau and future HHOF Erik Condra.

If Stone or Ryan goes down, or Boucher decides to spread out the lines and keep Smith-Pageau-Stone together at ES (long shot), Lazar could get an opportunity playing alongside Turris and either (I would assume most likely) Hoffman or MacArthur with Ryan on Brassard's line.
 

BondraTime

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If you're waiting for Lazar to break out and start dangling his way down the ice through multiple defenders, you're setting your self up for disappointment.

He's not a flashy player at all, and never has been.

Players like Lazar who depend less on their vision and hands, and rely more on their positioning, strength and physical tools (like his shot), and have more of a north-south mindset as opposed to east-west, are going to take longer to develop offensively. Especially if they are played on the 4th line with 4th line caliber players.

He was one of the best junior players in the world, and the captain of a gold medal wining team. He didn't stumble his way onto the top line with Connor McDavid either. Smart hockey minds recognized that despite his lack of flashy moves, his game has A LOT of useful elements that can help a team win.

Go watch the WJC again if you want to see how he might look one day in his prime against his peers. It may not be flashy, but we shouldn't care about him being flashy, we want him to be effective, which he has proven he can be when put in a position to succeed.

I don't know how many of you guys have played competitive sports or not, but all of these problems that you see with lazar's current game can be attributed to one thing; confidence (or lack thereof).

Confidence can turn the worst player on the bench into a superstar if he believes in himself, but it can also work the other way around. If anyone actually doubts that Lazar can make or receive a pass at a high level, or that his talent as a hockey player is similar to Chris Neils, needs to go re-watch the WJC before saying that again.

Lazar is a good hockey player. He's just seriously lacking confidence right now after having an up and down year where he didn't seem to fit anywhere in the lineup. That's tough on a 20yr old kid who's game isn't built on being an offensive dynamo with the puck.

Boucher is going to give him a well defined role, and a chance to play with guys who are a tier above the 4th line players that he's been stapled to thus far in his career, and we are going to see a different player (or not, and Im wrong about everything).

I'd put a lot of money on him coming around, personally.

I'm not expecting him to ever dangle or be flashy, I'm not naive enough to think that and offensive capabilities correlate.

Guys like Lazar are always good in junior, because of their type of game. Work harder, be stronger and dominate the junior players. Hodgson, Kassian,

Not that it matters, but I have played competitive. Confidence helps for sure, but it doesn't turn a pumpkin into a prince.

I'm not sure why people think 35ish points is a completely low projection for his career.
 
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BondraTime

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Oh lord. The "I played at a pretty high level" argument.

In response to "I'm not sure if you guys have played competitive sports"...

Also after saying it makes no difference and doesn't matter who has played competitively.

But yes, I agree. My apologies.
 
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God Says No

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Mar 16, 2012
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I think you're being really hard on him. I've seen many of those plays.

Don't forget that when you have young players in the NHL who aren't physical beasts like Ekblad or Brown (I'm projecting lol), or who don't have a generational skillset (McDavid), lots of shifts are about "surviving". Keeping your head up, not getting decked, making a safe defensive play, trying to gain the blue-line, getting some shots off, etc.

Mix that with being jerked around like a ragdoll on LW, C, RW on a daily basis and sometimes on a shift-by-shift basis. Mix that with getting limited opportunities and not knowing WTF you're supposed to do...

...aaaaand you just got a review of Lazar. This season we'll see his true colours. He puts up under 30 pts again and we'll know that he's pretty much a slightly better version of Condra. If he improves enough we know he might have Callahan potential.

He FAAAAAR away from Condra defensively. And he's slightly worst offensively at this point in his career. He should have been playing in the AHL the second he was eligible. He's a borderline 4th line player currently, unless he's taken a significant step in the offseason in his development.

Saying all of that, I think eventually he's going to be an excellent 3rd liner. He's just not there yet currently.
 

Hale The Villain

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I don't know how many of you guys have played competitive sports or not, but all of these problems that you see with lazar's current game can be attributed to one thing; confidence (or lack thereof).

Confidence can turn the worst player on the bench into a superstar if he believes in himself, but it can also work the other way around. If anyone actually doubts that Lazar can make or receive a pass at a high level, or that his talent as a hockey player is similar to Chris Neils, needs to go re-watch the WJC before saying that again.

Lazar is a good hockey player. He's just seriously lacking confidence right now after having an up and down year where he didn't seem to fit anywhere in the lineup. That's tough on a 20yr old kid who's game isn't built on being an offensive dynamo with the puck.

Boucher is going to give him a well defined role, and a chance to play with guys who are a tier above the 4th line players that he's been stapled to thus far in his career, and we are going to see a different player (or not, and Im wrong about everything).

I'd put a lot of money on him coming around, personally.

There's no doubt in my mind that rushing Lazar to the league before he was offensively-ready for the NHL and jerking him around the lineup has had a detrimental effect on his development as a player, but that doesn't change the fact that Lazar has always been a low-skill player. He produced in junior using his great speed and shot, but he never was the type of player to produce using his hands or playmaking ability. That has been obvious at every level he has played at. It can be most easily seen through his stats in his junior seasons; every year with the Oil Kings he had more goals than assists, and his first two seasons in the WHL he had almost twice as many goals as assists. As someone who follows the draft religiously, I can tell you that is a strong indicator of not only a lack of playmaking and vision but sometimes talent as well.

Even if his confidence is shot due to being rushed to the league and moved around the lineup frequently, he was never a guy that was going to produce more than 40-50 points a season. Realistically when we drafted him he had the potential to be a good middle 6 forward capable of producing a goal-heavy 30-40 points a season. I compared him to Dan Paille when he was drafted because watching him play in the WHL in his draft year made it clear to me he was skill-challenged. Still I wasn't particularly upset at the pick because I knew Lazar was a safe pick that was almost guaranteed to end up a good bottom 6 player, which he will be. The only people who will be disappointed in the player Lazar ends up becoming are those who hopped on board the hype train after the Sens drafted him and believed him to be more than what he was - a player with limited offensive ability that made up for his lack of offense with a great two-way game, physical play and character.
 

burf

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Mar 27, 2012
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I think you're being really hard on him. I've seen many of those plays.

Don't forget that when you have young players in the NHL who aren't physical beasts like Ekblad or Brown (I'm projecting lol), or who don't have a generational skillset (McDavid), lots of shifts are about "surviving". Keeping your head up, not getting decked, making a safe defensive play, trying to gain the blue-line, getting some shots off, etc.

Mix that with being jerked around like a ragdoll on LW, C, RW on a daily basis and sometimes on a shift-by-shift basis. Mix that with getting limited opportunities and not knowing WTF you're supposed to do...

...aaaaand you just got a review of Lazar. This season we'll see his true colours. He puts up under 30 pts again and we'll know that he's pretty much a slightly better version of Condra. If he improves enough we know he might have Callahan potential.

At this point, he's far from even being a slightly better version of Condra. Condra at least created offensive pressure every time he was on the ice, something Lazar has never shown himself capable of doing. Granted, Condra was among the all-time worst in actually capitalizing on the chances he created, but the flow of play was generally in the opponent's end when Condra was on the ice. That's not something that can be said about Lazar.
 

BondraTime

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There's no doubt in my mind that rushing Lazar to the league before he was offensively-ready for the NHL and jerking him around the lineup has had a detrimental effect on his development as a player, but that doesn't change the fact that Lazar has always been a low-skill player. He produced in junior using his great speed and shot, but he never was the type of player to produce using his hands or playmaking ability. That has been obvious at every level he has played at. It can be most easily seen through his stats in his junior seasons; every year with the Oil Kings he had more goals than assists, and his first two seasons in the WHL he had almost twice as many goals as assists. As someone who follows the draft religiously, I can tell you that is a strong indicator of not only a lack of playmaking and vision but sometimes talent as well.

Even if his confidence is shot due to being rushed to the league and moved around the lineup frequently, he was never a guy that was going to produce more than 40-50 points a season. Realistically when we drafted him he had the potential to be a good middle 6 forward capable of producing a goal-heavy 30-40 points a season. I compared him to Dan Paille when he was drafted because watching him play in the WHL in his draft year made it clear to me he was skill-challenged. Still I wasn't particularly upset at the pick because I knew Lazar was a safe pick that was almost guaranteed to end up a good bottom 6 player, which he will be. The only people who will be disappointed in the player Lazar ends up becoming are those who hopped on board the hype train after the Sens drafted him and believed him to be more than what he was - a player with limited offensive ability that made up for his lack of offense with a great two-way game, physical play and character.

This is basically my line of thinking.
 

trentmccleary

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Lazar is a lunch pail player, anyone expecting more is in line for disappointment.

35ish points and giving his all. Not what I want with a 17th overall, but he's an NHL player

A couple of months ago, I did an analysis of 1994-2010 top-10 picks, focusing on their 3rd best season.

31 forwards were chosen between 8th-10th.
The 10th highest of those 31 players produced 36 points in his 3rd best season. The 20th highest scored 19 points in his best season. The median was 27 points.

These numbers aren't great and they would blow 17th out of the water.
 

Langdon Alger

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Apr 19, 2006
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There's no doubt in my mind that rushing Lazar to the league before he was offensively-ready for the NHL and jerking him around the lineup has had a detrimental effect on his development as a player, but that doesn't change the fact that Lazar has always been a low-skill player. He produced in junior using his great speed and shot, but he never was the type of player to produce using his hands or playmaking ability. That has been obvious at every level he has played at. It can be most easily seen through his stats in his junior seasons; every year with the Oil Kings he had more goals than assists, and his first two seasons in the WHL he had almost twice as many goals as assists. As someone who follows the draft religiously, I can tell you that is a strong indicator of not only a lack of playmaking and vision but sometimes talent as well.

Even if his confidence is shot due to being rushed to the league and moved around the lineup frequently, he was never a guy that was going to produce more than 40-50 points a season. Realistically when we drafted him he had the potential to be a good middle 6 forward capable of producing a goal-heavy 30-40 points a season. I compared him to Dan Paille when he was drafted because watching him play in the WHL in his draft year made it clear to me he was skill-challenged. Still I wasn't particularly upset at the pick because I knew Lazar was a safe pick that was almost guaranteed to end up a good bottom 6 player, which he will be. The only people who will be disappointed in the player Lazar ends up becoming are those who hopped on board the hype train after the Sens drafted him and believed him to be more than what he was - a player with limited offensive ability that made up for his lack of offense with a great two-way game, physical play and character.

Thanks for sharing this. There is some good insight here. I think people hype up first round picks so much, and part of the reason is that most people don't follow any hockey league besides the nhl, so they really haven't seen these prospects play much. We see a guy get drafted in the first round and automatically think he will be a top six forward, top 4 defenceman or number one goalie, and it doesn't always work out that way. It's funny because I've heard people accuse the general managers of hyping up first round picks, and that may be true, but I think fans do a pretty good job of that on their own.

Manny Malholtra just retired and he was a 7th overall pick who had a very good career as a bottom six guy. Fine career and all, but relative to where he was drafted, people must have expected more from him. You could say the same about Chris Phillips.
 

operasen

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Apr 27, 2004
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In response to "I'm not sure if you guys have played competitive sports"...

Also after saying it makes no difference and doesn't matter who has played competitively.

But yes, I agree. My apologies.

Actually, I think it does matter. Anyone who has risen to the point that they are in the conversation to build a career out of their passion has an insight that is deeper than those who have a lot of knowledge, but no experience. If you've invested your 10,000 hours to get there, you are miles ahead of those of us who had a dream but didn't/couldn't act on it.

Its another perspective I enjoy hearing. It balances the knowledge-centric opinions as well. Both impacts are important when building an opinion. Theory and Reality.
 

Samsquanch

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Meh. I only brought up the competitive hockey angle because I when I read the comment "Lazar makes Chris Neil look like an all-star out there", I knew that someone who actually played the game wouldnt believe that.

I would wager that anyone who believes that has no clue whatsoever what its like to be the youngest player on a team in a league that's ahead of your age group. It sucks in a lot of ways, I can say this from experience.

Nerves can cripple your game, especially when your game is built around being physically assertive, and not so much the finesse side of things. Its very hard to get your A-game going when you feel like your being outmatched physically on the ice. Again I can relate to this pretty well.

Lazar was a very, very polished junior hockey player, and he was over a PPG in both WJC tournaments, which represents the best players of his age group in the world. He was also the #1 RW on McDavids line, and they were very productive.

There is no reason to doubt that he can be an impact guy at the NHL level yet imo, he just needs to grow mentally and physically in order to do so. He can make a pass and receive one at a high level. He practices with NHLers, and has made the team out of training camp twice.

I find it unfathomable that he could do all that while being as bad at basic hockey skills as some here believe that he is. They do a lot of drills in practice that would expose him pretty quickly for a bad player, I can guarantee you that.
 
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operasen

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Apr 27, 2004
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Except how do you know if it's reality

I'm hoping for both, Reality and Theory. I like to think the game and the players we can strategize with to win it. But I also want to see the game as it flows and find out how each reacts when the situation is fluid.

I never played (couldn't) the game, but I find hockey most exciting. It has everything you could hope to see for every fan (and player). At the end of the day the only team I want to go 82 and 0 is us. And even if that were the case, I'm sure there would be things to discuss.
 

operasen

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Apr 27, 2004
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I just hope Derrick and Bobby mesh well together

Brassard seems to be happy about the possibility. I think he indicated they have already had some discussions to begin to familiarize themselves with each others tendencies. I personally think Brassard is a big upgrade over Zibanejad, because he uses the opposite hand position that will benefit Ryan so much.
 

Langdon Alger

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Apr 19, 2006
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Brassard seems to be happy about the possibility. I think he indicated they have already had some discussions to begin to familiarize themselves with each others tendencies. I personally think Brassard is a big upgrade over Zibanejad, because he uses the opposite hand position that will benefit Ryan so much.

I think he's an upgrade because he's a better player, but yes, the lefty factor helps too.
 

aragorn

Do The Right Thing
Aug 8, 2004
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Meh. I only brought up the competitive hockey angle because I when I read the comment "Lazar makes Chris Neil look like an all-star out there", I knew that someone who actually played the game wouldnt believe that.

I would wager that anyone who believes that has no clue whatsoever what its like to be the youngest player on a team in a league that's ahead of your age group. It sucks in a lot of ways, I can say this from experience.

Nerves can cripple your game, especially when your game is built around being physically assertive, and not so much the finesse side of things. Its very hard to get your A-game going when you feel like your being outmatched physically on the ice. Again I can relate to this pretty well.

Lazar was a very, very polished junior hockey player, and he was over a PPG in both WJC tournaments, which represents the best players of his age group in the world. He was also the #1 RW on McDavids line, and they were very productive.

There is no reason to doubt that he can be an impact guy at the NHL level yet imo, he just needs to grow mentally and physically in order to do so. He can make a pass and receive one at a high level. He practices with NHLers, and has made the team out of training camp twice.

I find it unfathomable that he could do all that while being as bad at basic hockey skills as some here believe that he is. They do a lot of drills in practice that would expose him pretty quickly for a bad player, I can guarantee you that.

Agree completely, good post! :handclap:
 

Icelevel

During these difficult times...
Sep 9, 2009
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I just hope Derrick and Bobby mesh well together

I'm going to guess they will. excited to see that combo. more on the same level than bobby and zibby(will be very interested to see how zib does in ny this year too)
 

ReginKarlssonLehner

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May 3, 2010
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I just hope Derrick and Bobby mesh well together

They won't. It's not about Brassard, it's gonna be about Ryan. If Ryan shows up, he'll play equally well with Turris or Brassard.

I believe Ottawa's gonna pair Brassard-Stone and they'll be our best duo alongside Hoffman.

Brassard is essentially a more skilled Pageau and we seen the chemistry develop between Pageau and Stone.

Hoffman-Brassard-Stone will be our top line and MacArthur-Turris-Ryan will be our 2nd line when all things are said and done, imo.
 
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