OT: Following the NBA lockout UPD (circa 1am PT 11/26): tentative agreement reached

Sports Enthusiast

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The fans gained by hockey during the lockout will be minimal. Football does squat because it's 1(well 2 days a week counting MNF) The NHL is usually dead on Sundays with the schedule.

Now we could talk about how hockey is the most regionalized sport. It generally is most followed by those with a winter climate where there is snow and ice, you can relate to it. It will pretty much always be this way.

Also lets not forget, sad but true hockey is a class sport. It costs a lot to play and that elminates a lot of ;people right off the bat. that doesn't stop them from being able to watch. However, isn't it hard to watch something you don't understand? I know if I am watching a movie or show I don't get after a coupl of minutes I simply change the channel.
 

Melrose Munch

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The fans gained by hockey during the lockout will be minimal. Football does squat because it's 1(well 2 days a week counting MNF) The NHL is usually dead on Sundays with the schedule.

Now we could talk about how hockey is the most regionalized sport. It generally is most followed by those with a winter climate where there is snow and ice, you can relate to it. It will pretty much always be this way.

Also lets not forget, sad but true hockey is a class sport. It costs a lot to play and that elminates a lot of ;people right off the bat. that doesn't stop them from being able to watch. However, isn't it hard to watch something you don't understand? I know if I am watching a movie or show I don't get after a coupl of minutes I simply change the channel.
Hockey never used to be this expensive. What happened between the mid 90's and now?
 

Sports Enthusiast

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Hockey never used to be this expensive. What happened between the mid 90's and now?

I was talking in general compared to other sports, and what do you not consider expensive?

In basketball you need a ball, whats that....$5?(being really generous, it's probably lower)

In Baseball you need a glove, bat and all(just to be technical)that costs how much? Not much.

In Football you need pads, a helmet and a football.(well if your looking for safety)
 

AdmiralsFan24

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In basketball you need a ball, whats that....$5?(being really generous, it's probably lower)

In Baseball you need a glove, bat and all(just to be technical)that costs how much? Not much.

In Football you need pads, a helmet and a football.(well if your looking for safety)

You vastly underrate the cost of these things. A good basketball costs at least $25, usually more in the $35-50 range.

A football helmet costs between $100-150, add a football that costs at least $20, usually more and then chin strap, mouth guard, padding etc. and it gets expensive.

Cheapest bats in baseball cost about $20. The most expensive go well over $200. Good baseball gloves usually cost $40-60. Then batting gloves cost about $20.

Again, none of this stuff is as expensive as hockey equipment but it costs much more than you think it does.
 

GKJ

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Ric Bucher of ESPN says "the owners don't care if they have to miss an entire season."

He was also talking about the 6 NHL owners who also own NBA teams, and how they're the voices behind that feeling - not to be scared of losing a season, since they won't actually lose any money.
 

IU Hawks fan

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You vastly underrate the cost of these things. A good basketball costs at least $25, usually more in the $35-50 range.

A football helmet costs between $100-150, add a football that costs at least $20, usually more and then chin strap, mouth guard, padding etc. and it gets expensive.

Cheapest bats in baseball cost about $20. The most expensive go well over $200. Good baseball gloves usually cost $40-60. Then batting gloves cost about $20.

Again, none of this stuff is as expensive as hockey equipment but it costs much more than you think it does.

Lets look past the equipment.

Indoor Basketball court time - cheap, maybe free
Outside basketball - free
Baseball field - free
Football field - free

Ice time - $$$$$$$$$$$ Prime ice slots are like $200/hr near me. That's the most expensive part of hockey, the ice.
 

Sports Enthusiast

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You vastly underrate the cost of these things. A good basketball costs at least $25, usually more in the $35-50 range.

A football helmet costs between $100-150, add a football that costs at least $20, usually more and then chin strap, mouth guard, padding etc. and it gets expensive.

Cheapest bats in baseball cost about $20. The most expensive go well over $200. Good baseball gloves usually cost $40-60. Then batting gloves cost about $20.

Again, none of this stuff is as expensive as hockey equipment but it costs much more than you think it does.

I suppose, I was talking just in general I guess over organized, so i went with the basics. Some of those in Football I believe are your call(like the mouth piece)perhaps not I guess.

Fair enough, I admit I don't know the cost of these things now, it's obviously gone up since the mid 90's.

But I would hate to think how much ice time costs for an individual for a youth hockey season, a few grand?
 

KzooShark

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No, actually those six probably want a season (Knicks/Sixers).
Those teams make money, those who want no season are the small markets in the NBA.

My understanding is that the push is mainly a lot of the newer owners who bought their teams for amounts in the hundreds of millions and are now losing money annually and their teams aren't appreciating in value.
 

HabsByTheBay

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You vastly underrate the cost of these things. A good basketball costs at least $25, usually more in the $35-50 range.

A football helmet costs between $100-150, add a football that costs at least $20, usually more and then chin strap, mouth guard, padding etc. and it gets expensive.

Cheapest bats in baseball cost about $20. The most expensive go well over $200. Good baseball gloves usually cost $40-60. Then batting gloves cost about $20.

Again, none of this stuff is as expensive as hockey equipment but it costs much more than you think it does.
Pshaw, only little girls wear batting gloves.

070812_TedWilliams1946.standard.jpg


Ice time is the killer, though saying that many, many hockey fans never got off the street and a wood stick and ball should only run you about $25.
 

Ishdul

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If that's the case, that suggests to me the owners feel "hey, the NHL cancelled a season and survived, so can we". They watched the NHL owners get a hard cap, and they probably feel they can do same.

Might be a long time before the NBA starts up again.
I agree that the NHL certainly entered their thought process, but that's some dangerous thinking. The NHL after the '94 strike didn't work out that way and neither did the MLB after they cancelled the '94 season midway through. While the lockout is definitely necessary for many reasons, basketball is not hockey, and NBA basketball in 2011 is not NHL hockey in 2004. There was a lot of enthusiasm for the 2005/2006 season in hockey which is a big reason why the NHL has thrived since then, I don't think the NBA has the equivalent of a bunch of rule changes in their bag and no matter what the cap situation is, basketball is not designed to have more than a few contending teams. They're obviously going to survive it in the literal sense but when I hear people talking about it, it seems like people think it will be JUST LIKE THE NHL, when really it could do a lot of harm.

No, actually those six probably want a season (Knicks/Sixers).
Those teams make money, those who want no season are the small markets in the NBA.
Check the recent attendance records of the Sixers. They are definitely losing money.
 

LPHabsFan

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You vastly underrate the cost of these things. A good basketball costs at least $25, usually more in the $35-50 range.

A football helmet costs between $100-150, add a football that costs at least $20, usually more and then chin strap, mouth guard, padding etc. and it gets expensive.

Cheapest bats in baseball cost about $20. The most expensive go well over $200. Good baseball gloves usually cost $40-60. Then batting gloves cost about $20.

Again, none of this stuff is as expensive as hockey equipment but it costs much more than you think it does.

I agree with you to some degree with regards to football equipment. The thing is, are those prices for children or are they for adults. Because realistically, how much of the football equipment do parents have to pay for when football is ingrained in a strong percentage of the school system? I think that's also probably the biggest factor is that football is in most school programs (maybe not in major urban areas) and these programs can start pretty early on in their education.
 

Tinalera

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I agree with you to some degree with regards to football equipment. The thing is, are those prices for children or are they for adults. Because realistically, how much of the football equipment do parents have to pay for when football is ingrained in a strong percentage of the school system? I think that's also probably the biggest factor is that football is in most school programs (maybe not in major urban areas) and these programs can start pretty early on in their education.

I agree with your comment on prices for adults/children, particularly for baseball? Just HabsFan what you consider considers "Good" (particularly for kids)? I can walk into in Canadian Tire around here and a get a KIDS sized, decent to good quality baseball glove for 15-20, most kids I see playing pickup don't WEAR batting gloves, and a bat can be had for 10-15, a couple of bucks for a ball-the prices you quote I've seen more for adult sized stuff.

Even around here with little leagues I've seen-kids pretty much only have to provide their own baseball glove-bats, helmets, uniforms are all provided.
 

wjhl2009fan

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Lets look past the equipment.

Indoor Basketball court time - cheap, maybe free
Outside basketball - free
Baseball field - free
Football field - free

Ice time - $$$$$$$$$$$ Prime ice slots are like $200/hr near me. That's the most expensive part of hockey, the ice.

In my area baseball and football fields are not free there not the price of ice rentals but there not free.
 

kdb209

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Jan 26, 2005
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Post today on the NY Times 538.Com blog.

Nate Silver's take on the NBAs claims of losing money - albeit sports business is far from Nate's wheelhouse (politics, polling, and baseball stats). He places too much reliance on the Forbes' numbers - but still an interesting read.

http://fivethirtyeight.blogs.nytime...foul-on-n-b-a-s-claims-of-financial-distress/

Such a move would not be without precedent: the N.H.L. canceled its 2004-5 season. But the N.B.A.’s current financial condition is different than the N.H.L.’s in one important respect. Whereas there was almost no doubt that the N.H.L. was in fact losing money in advance of its lockout — player salaries had mushroomed by more than 400 percent from 1994 to 2004, according to independent estimates — the N.B.A.’s claims of financial hardship should be viewed more skeptically.

Instead, independent estimates of the N.B.A. financial condition reflect a league that has grown at a somewhat tepid rate compared to other sports, and which has an uneven distribution of revenues between teams — but which is fundamentally a healthy and profitable business. In addition, it is not clear that growth in player salaries, which has been modest compared to other sports and which is strictly pegged to league revenue, is responsible for the league’s difficulties.

...

So why are N.B.A. owners seeking such significant reductions in player salaries, reportedly to about 45 percent of league revenues? The simple reason is that they think they can — and this reflects an awful lot of money. If salaries were reduced to 45 percent of revenues, this would save the owners roughly $500 million per year, or about $3 billion over the course of a six-year labor contract. It is hard to estimate either the near or the long-term cost of cancelling a season, but the potential gain from a more favorable contract is large enough that it is something the owners might be willing to risk.

What the owners may be thinking about is their position compared to that of the other sports leagues. Baseball and football are cash cows, with the N.F.L. having brought in more than a billion in profits (before taxes) in 2009, and Major League Baseball about $500 million in its most recent season.

By contrast, the N.B.A.’s position is more comparable to that of the N.H.L. Several N.B.A. owners also own N.H.L. teams, and they may be looking to that league’s lockout as having been successful, because it recovered from $228 million in operating losses in the three seasons preceding its lockout (according to the Forbes data) to a state of profitability comparable to the N.B.A.’s.

...

A similar discrepancy exists today between Forbes’s estimates — a $183 million profit for the N.B.A. in 2009-10, and those issued by the league, which claim a $370 million loss. The difference between the two numbers is roughly of the same size on an annual basis as the salary concessions the N.B.A. is seeking.

There are several reasons to be skeptical of the N.B.A.’s figures. First, many of the purported losses — perhaps about $250 million — result from an unusual accounting treatment related to depreciation and amortization when a team is sold. While the accounting treatment is legal, these paper losses would have no impact on a team’s cash flow. Another potential (and usually within-the-law) trick: moving income from the basketball team’s balance sheet to that of a related business like a cable network, or losses in the opposite direction.

Second, the leaked financial statements for one team, the New Orleans Hornets, closely matched the Forbes data. And the sale prices for some teams have exceeded their figures. The Golden State Warriors were purchased for $450 million in 2010 — more than the $363 million that Forbes estimates they are worth. The Detroit Pistons were recently sold for a price reported to be about $420 million, more than Forbes’s estimated value of $360 million. The Washington Wizards were bought for $551 million last year, a 70 percent premium over Forbes’s estimated price of $322 million. Comparing actual to theoretical sale prices is not always safe because other assets are sometimes packaged with the teams, but the market for N.B.A. franchises is clearly quite healthy and inconsistent with what the league claims to be a failing business model.

The third reason for skepticism: the N.B.A.’s data has not been made public, although it has been shared with the players’ union. If the league expects their figures to be viewed credibly, they should open up their books to journalists, economists and fans.

...

None of this means that the N.B.A. is without problems. For instance, the sluggish growth in ticket revenues may suggest that the league’s fans, who are younger than those for other sports and more likely to be African-American, are being priced out of the stadium experience.

In addition, the fact that a significant number of teams are failing to turn a profit, even by the Forbes estimates, reflects a potential lack of competitive balance in the league. Since 1990, a total of eight distinct N.B.A. teams have won a championship, compared to 13 teams in each of the other major sports leagues. Although some of this has to do with factors intrinsic to the structure of basketball, the current salary cap rules may worsen matters by limiting player movement, making it difficult for teams to rebuild. Fans in many cities have little realistic hope of seeing a championship any time soon.

Nor does this mean that we aren’t in for a long lockout. Rather, the fact that the N.B.A. has released financial data that is so at odds with estimates provided by credible and unbiased organizations like Forbes suggests that the league’s owners are armed to win the public relations battle — a key part of what could be a yearlong war of words with their players.
 

LadyStanley

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http://www.tsn.ca/nba/story/?id=371065

NBA refutes NYT take on finances (based on Forbes $s).

The story was based on estimates prepared by Forbes and Financial World magazines. NBA spokesman Mike Bass said the information was inaccurate, saying Forbes "does not have the financial data for our teams and the magazine's estimates do not reflect reality."

"Precisely to avoid this issue, the NBA and its teams shared their complete league and team audited financials as well as our state and federal tax returns with the players union," Bass said. "Those financials demonstrate the substantial and indisputable losses the league has incurred over the past several years."
 

Tinalera

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http://www.tsn.ca/nba/story/?id=371065

NBA refutes NYT take on finances (based on Forbes $s).

Again, I recall during the NHL lockout, this similar thing occuring where journalists or whoever were trying to say one thing about the finances, and the NHL saying "no, you don't have all the numbers/you don't know the whole story"

Just almost eerie how (so far) the NBA lockout seems in lockstep with the NHL-further making me think they are going to lose the entire season-and the owners are prepared for that-and it wouldn't surprise me if players, like the NHL players, were thinking (at that time) "there's no way they'll give up the season".
 

LadyStanley

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And if this continues to go the way the NHL did, expect a statement from the players union questioning those numbers and asking for an independent auditor to go over the numbers.

So starts the next part of the game "We don't believe your numbers"....

IIRC, that's already happened. :naughty:
 

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