OT: Can Atlanta still be a good major league sports town?

[NSHPreds1835]

I disagree COMPLETELY about Atlanta being a "failed" hockey market twice. Just because a team leaves doesn't mean it's a failure. What's the difference between Winnipeg, Minnesota, Quebec, Hartford and Atlanta? Teams relocate when the situation loses all three of the holy sports trinity (owner, venue, market economy). If there's no owner committed because of the other two, a team moves. That's not a failure, that's circumstance. The Islanders have a horrible arena and the market economy (including politics) is preventing them from getting a new one. But they still have a committed owner, so they're still there.

Winnipeg now has an arena and a committed owner, and the new CBA and strong Canadian dollar fixed the market economy issue.

Minnesota got the new arena, new owner and the economy they're fine.

Atlanta had the arena, but the ownership didn't want them and that mean a new owner would have the economy/arena issue (paying to be a ASG tenant). Hence, they moved. I don't consider that a failure of hockey for a city. Hockey is too awesome to fail. When you assign blame, it should be to the decision makers, not something as broad and general as "the whole city/market"



The main thing is that a city the size of Atlanta (or Dallas, Denver, New York, etc) is that there's enough people and corporate dollars that not having a completely full building isn't a huge deal, because when the bandwagon's full, it's huge.

As loyal as the Jets fans are, there's a limited number of them. Their bandwagon in the good times isn't going to be much larger than their loyal fanbase in the downtimes.

Which is why no one would say that the Braves or Falcons are in trouble, even if they're not drawing.

We look down on them for not selling out Braves playoff games. Or being middle of the pack in attendance when their team has the second-best record in the NL right now. (But yeah, it's hot as hell in ATL in the summer, why drop the cash to go to the game, when you can buy a six-pack for the price of one stadium beer and watch in your air conditioned home in stunning HD?)
Comparing football to other sports simply isn't an apples-to-apples comparison. There's eight home football games (college or pro). It's an EVENT. Hockey, basketball, or baseball are marathon seasons.



Yes, this is true. doubleheaders don't draw well for anyone (maybe Boston). We'll see how many people are at the Marlins/Mets doubleheader at 1 pm in New York. With the Irene flooding, mass transit issues and the fact that the Mets are sucking. Then again, Josey comes back today, so we'll see.

You might have a point about the weather and why people decide to stay home and watch the game on tv. I'm hoping when the time comes for a new stadium to be built for the Braves it will have a retractable roof. As for not selling out playoff games? Considering the Braves postseason history alot of it might be people have just become so skeptical and are waiting for the team to show them something. I mean the Braves haven't been to the World Series since 1999(The Braves were 1-4 in World Series appearances in the 1990s) and haven't even reached the NLCS since 2001. Winning your division or getting in as the Wild Card only to be bounced in the first round can only be tolerated for so long. As for hockey I would like to see there area get an AHL team at some point and I think the better location for that team would be in Duluth Georgia where the current ECHL Gwinnett Gladiators play.

 

[Tekneek]

When the expansion team was granted, it was given to Turner Sports which had a long history with the Hawks (NBA) and Braves (MLB) and had demonstrated they were in for the long haul. Nobody, at the time, knew that the AOL Time Warner debacle was on the horizon and would forever change the dynamics of that ownership. Once Time Warner was on the rocks, the sports teams were shipped out the door.

If Turner Sports is allowed to continue to operate much like it had for the previous decades, we're probably not even having this discussion. People liked Ted and had a loyalty to virtually everything he did in Atlanta. When all that changed, and the new owners had small pockets, the writing was on the wall. ASG was under-capitalized in a business that requires a substantial investment to get over the hump. Luckily, the Braves were picked up by another media monster and not by some small time hustlers (unlike the other two).

 

[PCSPounder]

I wonder if Atlanta is TOO corporate.

It's definitely corporate, which is why it wouldn't surprise me if the NHL tries again.

Thing is... transportation initiatives are thwarted, midweek games are easy tickets, and just the attitude. It's conducive to NFL (though even they've had rough patches), but I'm not sure if it works for anything else. That can change, but do you see that happening anytime soon?

(I'd talk about my time there, but it was during the Olympics. Talk about unfair comparisons.)

 

[Nuclear SUV]

Thing is... transportation initiatives are thwarted, midweek games are easy tickets, and just the attitude.

Is Transportation Initiative that rapper, aka T.I., that they threw in jail? Because you can't be talking about transportation-transportation as Atlanta keeps adding on to their airport and already has an expensive toy train set, the MARTA. Is it more freeways they lack, or liberated rappers?

 

[MartysBetterThanYou]

Is Transportation Initiative that rapper, aka T.I., that they threw in jail? Because you can't be talking about transportation-transportation as Atlanta keeps adding on to their airport and already has an expensive toy train set, the MARTA. Is it more freeways they lack, or liberated rappers?

MARTA doesn't get you anywhere useful unless you live in city limits itself, since most of the suburban collar counties voted against joining up. As a result, corporate (as in the $$$ that can afford hockey games) jobs are scattered around the suburbs instead of in the city center. In places like New York, Philadelphia, Boston, DC, Chicago, Toronto, Montreal, Vancouver, and even smaller cities like Pittsburgh, Winnipeg, and Calgary, there is a culture among season ticket holders of going to the game after work, while they are still in the city, before heading back to their suburban homes, making it very easy for businessmen to be season ticket holders and attend games. In Atlanta, since the jobs are scattered, there is no place to put an arena that is convenient to most people's workplaces, hence the midweek games go unattended. This was the same reason teams with suburban arenas traditionally drew so poorly during midweek, as a result, you are seeing the recent moves the Devils and Islanders have made/are making to urban centers and the attendance struggles of Anaheim and Phoenix.

 

[Bongo]

Someone needs to write a book about the Thrashers. That team and it's fans were doomed the moment ASG retained ownership. From then on, the NHL experience was every bit as much a con game as it was a hockey game. To blame the city and it's fans for the actions of a handful of despicable businessmen is not only inaccurate, it's stupid. It also shows how out of touch the NHL really is with it's own product.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Is Transportation Initiative that rapper, aka T.I., that they threw in jail? Because you can't be talking about transportation-transportation as Atlanta keeps adding on to their airport and already has an expensive toy train set, the MARTA. Is it more freeways they lack, or liberated rappers?

I'm not sure exactly what point you're trying to make here, but NHL game attendance has zilch to do with expanding an airport.

I would think that anyone who has spent any substantial amount of time in Atlanta (outside the airport, that is) would have immediately been struck by the woeful state of transportation in that city. There's a reason that it's regularly named one of the worst cities in the country for all of car traffic, public transit, and walkability.

http://www.weather.com/activities/driving/slideshow/traffic.html (#3 worst traffic, after Washington and LA)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local...9d2-6ef3-11e2-aa58-243de81040ba_gallery.html# (#7 worst traffic delays, tied with Chicago)

http://www.theatlantic.com/business...orst-cities-for-public-transportation/238985/ (#10 worst public transit, in the same range as cities a small fraction of its size such as Youngstown Ohio and Greenville SC)

http://www.hotelclub.com/blog/worst-public-transport-systems-in-the-world/ (title: "Worst Public Transport Systems in the World"... followed by a large photo of the Atlanta skyline)

http://www.forbes.com/2008/04/24/cities-commute-fuel-forbeslife-cx_mw_0424realestate.html (the #1 worst city for commuting as a whole)


The maddening inefficiency of travel in Atlanta can't be overstated. It affects absolutely everything, and there is no clear solution due to the geographical layout and political organization of the metro area.

 

[Bongo]

People didn't quit coming to Thrasher games because of the traffic or because of where the arena is located. They stopped coming when they realized the owners weren't committed to putting a winning team on the ice. This isn't the same thing as failing to support your franchise during hard times. There hadn't been that many good times to begin with and as long as ASG was at the helm, there were none forthcoming. This isn't being a bad fan. I call this being a wise consumer.

 

[AtlantaWhaler]

Someone needs to write a book about the Thrashers. That team and it's fans were doomed the moment ASG retained ownership. From then on, the NHL experience was every bit as much a con game as it was a hockey game. To blame the city and it's fans for the actions of a handful of despicable businessmen is not only inaccurate, it's stupid. It also shows how out of touch the NHL really is with it's own product.

Yup. This is all anyone needs to read regarding Atlanta's chances of keeping a hockey team after ASG got their hands on it. They wanted to get rid of it the second they bought the package (Hawks, Thrashers, and Arena)

http://www.ajc.com/news/sports/lawsuit-thrashers-owners-have-been-trying-to-sell-/nQpwh/

 

[Jyrki]

You might have a point about the weather and why people decide to stay home and watch the game on tv. I'm hoping when the time comes for a new stadium to be built for the Braves it will have a retractable roof. As for not selling out playoff games? Considering the Braves postseason history alot of it might be people have just become so skeptical and are waiting for the team to show them something. I mean the Braves haven't been to the World Series since 1999(The Braves were 1-4 in World Series appearances in the 1990s) and haven't even reached the NLCS since 2001. Winning your division or getting in as the Wild Card only to be bounced in the first round can only be tolerated for so long. As for hockey I would like to see there area get an AHL team at some point and I think the better location for that team would be in Duluth Georgia where the current ECHL Gwinnett Gladiators play.

I'm sorry, but getting into the MLB playoffs is a pretty damn big deal by itself considering how there are teams who have spent 10+ years looking from the outside, and many spend ~5 years without a post-season berth.

With that said, the Braves have done well in the last 10 years (~30,000 average) but it's odd that an extra 10-15K won't come out and cheer on the team in the playoffs.

 

[tarheelhockey]

I'm sorry, but getting into the MLB playoffs is a pretty damn big deal by itself considering how there are teams who have spent 10+ years looking from the outside, and many spend ~5 years without a post-season berth.

It sounds crazy, but when you've been in the playoffs for years and years on end, the expectations begin to change. People don't get pumped up about a first-round game like they used to. Especially when the team has a reputation for blowing it in traumatic fashion.

I grew up following the Braves and still catch 'em on TV when I can, but I admit I stopped watching their early-round playoff games after a while. After a point it was like, "wake me up when they make the NLCS". That probably makes me a bad baseball fan, but it's easier than it seems to get lulled to sleep by annual playoff flameouts.

 

[Nuclear SUV]

I would think that anyone who has spent any substantial amount of time in Atlanta (outside the airport, that is) would have immediately been struck by the woeful state of transportation in that city.

I disagree. The MARTA works fine, the walk-ability downtown was adequate (been over a decade since my last visit). So it is the freeways that need work it sounds like.

What many of you are hinting is not a transportation problem, but an arena placement problem. Would the Thrashers and Hawks drawn better numbers in an arena on the north end of downtown Atlanta?

 

[tarheelhockey]

The MARTA works fine

MARTA works fine if you are in town for a business conference and staying at a downtown hotel, and want to see some tourist attractions. It serves a fraction of the city, and virtually none of the suburban population centers.

Here is an image that illustrates the population distribution in metro Atlanta:

The MARTA routes are in flourescent colors at the center of the map. The reason that they are virtually useless to the majority of the population should be quite obvious -- they don't go where the people go.

, the walk-ability downtown was adequate (been over a decade since my last visit)

Again, it's walkable if you're right in the middle of the downtown corridor. Otherwise, it's an horrifically un-walkable city. Setting aside the heat stroke you'll get between May and September, the area surrounding downtown is full of scenes like this:

The building at the center of that photo is Philips Arena.

So it is the freeways that need work it sounds like.

They "need work" in the sense that half of them need to be demolished and replaced with trains. The city is one of the most auto-dependent places on earth, and the strain on the current system only gets worse as the highways are expanded to suit the pressure of the fast-growing suburbs.

What many of you are hinting is not a transportation problem, but an arena placement problem. Would the Thrashers and Hawks drawn better numbers in an arena on the north end of downtown Atlanta?

Possibly, but this is not a Phoenix-type situation where the arena was located far from a population center. The arena was right downtown, in the mix of things. The problem is that the city of Atlanta has a transportation crisis that affects people's ability to get anywhere before 7pm on a weeknight, whether it's a hockey game or a movie or just going home.

 

[Nuclear SUV]

MARTA works fine if you are in town for a business conference and staying at a downtown hotel, and want to see some tourist attractions. It serves a fraction of the city, and virtually none of the suburban population centers.

Park and ride?



Didn't need your Atlanta lesson, familiar with the place, been there.

My point is the arena probably would have done better at the other end of downtown. Easier to get to, better neighborhood potential, easier to get to Buckhead to get blasted after a game, etc.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Park and ride?

1) Why bother if you have to drive all the way through the traffic jam just to get to the p&r lot?

2) 50% of the problem is that there are so few stations near population centers; the other 50% is that there are so few stations near work locations.

MARTA works effectively if your destinations in each direction happen to be along one of its very narrow axes. Otherwise, it's useless.

Didn't need your Atlanta lesson, familiar with the place, been there.

With all due respect to your experience, it's hard to believe you're overly familiar with the city if you think it needs more freeways.

My point is the arena probably would have done better at the other end of downtown. Easier to get to, better neighborhood potential, easier to get to Buckhead to get blasted after a game, etc.

This is probably true, but the whole point was to replace the obsolete Omni with a new arena on the same site, adjoining Turner's new CNN Center. At that time, both MARTA and the adjacent Olympic Park were brand new and the city had 15 years' less development to strain its infrastructure. Like the Thrashers themselves, the plan was sound but the execution failed.

 

[Nuclear SUV]

With all due respect to your experience, it's hard to believe you're overly familiar with the city if you think it needs more freeways.

It certainly doesn't need any more expensive, inflexible, relic rail lines. Especially based on the cost, the dispersed development patterns of Atlanta, the population density, and the future trend of transportation. Folks interested in fixed rail transit should focus on adding density around the current MARTA system.

 

[tarheelhockey]

It certainly doesn't need any more expensive, inflexible, relic rail lines.

What it really needs is political consolidation and an actual comprehensive plan for its growth. Pretty much any approach, road or rail, would work better than the status quo as long as it is comprehensive. MARTA is probably the poster child for the Atlanta metro's inability to get the whole flock moving in the same direction.

Folks interested in fixed rail transit should focus on adding density around the current MARTA system.

Agreed, but that's a whole lot easier to do when the system isn't woefully inadequate and under-utilized.

 

[bluesfan94]

Where would you like to see MARTA go? I've been to Atlanta twice visiting a friend in the Sandy Springs area. MARTA worked fine getting from the airport to her car at a P&R. We drove into the city a couple times and that, admittedly, was tedious.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Where would you like to see MARTA go?

Pretty much any growth is good growth, considering it could extend in any direction and be touching a new population center. Personally I think it's more important to build a network of lines that interconnect in convenient alignments, as opposed to simply extending along the current N/S and E/W axes. But that doesn't mean that extending the current lines wouldn't be a huge benefit as well.

But it's kind of a moot point, as there simply isn't political support behind a serious expansion of rail service. They'll keep building moar freewayz until the whole city is just a 50-lane parking lot.

 

[PCSPounder]

People didn't quit coming to Thrasher games because of the traffic or because of where the arena is located. They stopped coming when they realized the owners weren't committed to putting a winning team on the ice. This isn't the same thing as failing to support your franchise during hard times. There hadn't been that many good times to begin with and as long as ASG was at the helm, there were none forthcoming. This isn't being a bad fan. I call this being a wise consumer.

The problem is that the standard for keeping a team usually includes not bailing on a bad owner. Obviously, not everyone can (or perhaps should) meet that standard.

 

[Tekneek]

The problem is that the standard for keeping a team usually includes not bailing on a bad owner. Obviously, not everyone can (or perhaps should) meet that standard.

So the fans weren't walking out on Bill Wirtz in Chicago? In at least one, if not more, seasons the Thrashers had higher attendance than they did. The biggest difference is that Wirtz had the financial means that ASG will never ever have.

 

[Bongo]

So the fans weren't walking out on Bill Wirtz in Chicago? In at least one, if not more, seasons the Thrashers had higher attendance than they did. The biggest difference is that Wirtz had the financial means that ASG will never ever have.

Tek: ASG could have had more money than God but that wouldn't have saved the hockey team. They dumped talent, drove away all but the hardcore hockey fans, then threatened to kick the team out of the building if they didn't leave town. All the money in the world wouldn't protect them or their fans from owners who never wanted a hockey franchise to begin with.

 

[Wheathead]

Related but unrelated: The Marlins basically killed their own fanbase this winter.

 

[Morris Wanchuk]

I never understood the mass draw of college sports for those who didn't attend the university they are rooting for.

But, I come from Massachusetts, where college sports are hardly ever discussed on sports radio.

 

[tarheelhockey]

I never understood the mass draw of college sports for those who didn't attend the university they are rooting for.

Keep in mind that in your region, professional sports has existed for about a century. Teams like the Red Sox, Bruins and Celtics are an integral part of the regional culture and are a source of deep local pride.

In other areas, particularly the South, major league sports has arrived within the past 30-40 years or less. The majority of the population either grew up without the local team, or relocated from some other place where they rooted for a rival team. Combine that lack of historical connectedness with the mercenary modern sports culture, and people tend to view pro sports as much more of a business and less of a cultural institution.

I bring that up because it contrasts with the collegiate teams that have been around for well over a century, and until recently were usually stocked with players from the local community. Cheering for the local college team wasn't really any different from cheering for the local high school team -- whether you went to the school or not, they represented your community on a large competitive stage. The players often had a tangible connection to your hometown, and the local leagues were basically a competition to send your kid to that college team. For a region without significant professional loyalties, the college team was the biggest show in the state and the main source of athletic/competitive pride. Multiply that across several generations, and you get the current condition of people going crazy for a school team that has nothing directly to do with them.