OT: OT: 2018 Football Thread III: Well, the Giants suck, anyway!

[Hunter Gathers]

I see articles everywhere I go killing Eli.

Yes. For the first time basically ever. Troy Aikman criticizing Manning the other night was essentially a first for him since his rookie year. He's that loved by the media folks and has gotten away with poor play for the last three years.

Before this, we had article after article about the Giants likely moving on from Beckham (before he signed).

 

[Beer League Sniper]

Eli is, unfortunately, toast. It's just a catch-22 with the fanbase. People are going to be upset if Eli continues to start, and others are going to riot if he gets benched.

Honestly, at this point, sitting at 1-5, just let Eli finish out the season and retire with some dignity. I doubt Lauletta is going to be any better, and they're already basically out of the playoffs.

Regarding OBJ, he is what is he at this point: an all-world talent who routinely throws temper tantrums. I still root for him as hard as ever, and I want him to succeed, but he is an absolute baby. In my experience with organized sports, players like that either bounce around, or get tuned out by their teammates.

 

[East Coast Bias]

I don't think this is true. Just today on WFAN they were talking about the second best ownership in NY sports. They picked the Devils lol ( I don't see how it's anyone but the NYR. They're rebuilding after clearly communicating with their fanbase and it has been painless compared to most teams who just bottom out and become a laughing stock for years. Dolan is always hands off while supplying money and top notch accommodations). They went out of their way to crap on Giants ownership for the last year. People see a lot of issues with how Mara interfered on Eli's behalf the last year. OBJ is respectively drawing attention to himself. The Oline was getting annihlated when they played awful, Flowers got cut and a ton of negative press surrounds Eli everywhere you look/listen. I just don't see evidence that any conspiracy exists to shift all the blame to OBJ. If it does exist then it is failing miserably. They're not winning and OBJ makes a TON of money while doing some out there things. How could he NOT receive any criticism whatsoever?


I don't see the spin. Everyone is killing Eli. Honestly, the retool attempt was reasonable. This same defense did wonders the year prior. OBJ was back and they were adding an all world talent in Saquon. I personally thought Eli would be at least average. He hasn't been and that D has not regained its form so here they sit. At the same time, OBJ does unique things that draw attention his way, as he always has.

I'm looking at this as a Jets fan, so I don't have a favorite in this. I'm enjoying 6 games where we're talking football and they're covering the pages in drama, honestly. And I fall somewhere in the middle on OBJ. I think some of the stuff is ridiculous and some overblown. He's not unusual in the league though. There's a lot of star players who just don't react to losing well. He's hardly the first.

Whether it works or not, I don't know. I'm honestly not in tune with talk radio at all. I go fully podcast or music in the car. That stuff drives me crazy.

I'm just talking about what the organization's aim is, which is pretty clear to me. I mean the cover of the Daily News website right is our friend Pat Leonard's article about Mara's quotes on OBJ, and a buried line on Eli:

And on Eli Manning, the Giants’ co-owner added: “When you’re 1-5, it generally means everybody has to play better.”

I think it's really clear they'd rather not discuss their QB decisions, draft strategy, etc. They'd rather hit back at players malcontent. We'll see how it plays out.

 

[BroadwayBlues]

John Mara is overrated.

 

[KirkAlbuquerque]

They might need a get a different head coach too.

That should be a priority.

 

[KirkAlbuquerque]

Jesus, Darnold played well the last couple of weeks but let's hit the breaks so far. The guy could well end up as a good and not great QB. Mahomes is at least playing great already.

Mahomes is also playing in the most stacked offense in the league (besides maybe LA) and with an offensive guru of a HC. Love to see how Mahomes would look playing on the Jets. Somehow I think less impressive.

Darnold is playing in one of the worst environments for a rookie qb: No elite weapons, and garbage OL when it comes to pass protection (ranked worse than the Giants), and a conservative, defense-oriented coaching staff. And he's still looking good at 21 years old. I was at the game on Sunday and every single one of his passes was absolutely money, hitting guys in stride, perfect shoulder throw to Robby who tropped it in the endzone, and he gets rid of the ball quickly, he has no time to just stand in the pocket like a lot of QBs. Very impressive.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

Mahomes is also playing in the most stacked offense in the league (besides maybe LA) and with an offensive guru of a HC. Love to see how Mahomes would look playing on the Jets. Somehow I think less impressive.

Darnold is playing in one of the worst environments for a rookie qb: No elite weapons, and garbage OL when it comes to pass protection (ranked worse than the Giants), and a conservative, defense-oriented coaching staff. And he's still looking good at 21 years old. I was at the game on Sunday and every single one of his passes was absolutely money, hitting guys in stride, perfect shoulder throw to Robby who tropped it in the endzone, and he gets rid of the ball quickly, he has no time to just stand in the pocket like a lot of QBs. Very impressive.

I can't see it being worse than the Giants, but maybe. I think Eli is making his line look worse. Either way, he looks decent but it's been 6 damn games. He's not a shoe-in franchise QB. I also can't see a line that's worse than the Giants open up holes for Isaiah friggin Crowell to run for 200+ yards. Maybe they're better at run blocking. Either way, all I'm saying Darnold hasn't proven anything more than he's promising.

 

[YoSoyLalo]

Mahomes is also playing in the most stacked offense in the league (besides maybe LA) and with an offensive guru of a HC. Love to see how Mahomes would look playing on the Jets. Somehow I think less impressive.

Darnold is playing in one of the worst environments for a rookie qb: No elite weapons, and garbage OL when it comes to pass protection (ranked worse than the Giants), and a conservative, defense-oriented coaching staff. And he's still looking good at 21 years old. I was at the game on Sunday and every single one of his passes was absolutely money, hitting guys in stride, perfect shoulder throw to Robby who tropped it in the endzone, and he gets rid of the ball quickly, he has no time to just stand in the pocket like a lot of QBs. Very impressive.

We had the same pieces with Alex Smith and the offense wasn’t even close to as good.

There’s no doubt that Mahomes is benefitting from lots of talent and a great HC, but he’s a special, special talent, and is the really the guy who unlocks this offense’s potential.

Okay, I’ll get out of here with my Mahomes blowing, back to Chiefs planet for me

But seriously, on Darnold, he’s also a special young QB. He’s 21! The fact that he’s looked this good, this early, under these circumstances is spectactular. The Jets are in good hands, and IMO deserve to be in the conversation when talking about “successors” to the Pats/Steelers.

I do think the Jets need to get a legit offensive mind ASAP.

 

[Fvital92]

 

[JT Kreider]

All the backlash after Eli got benched last year was the worst thing that could have happened to the Giants. Pretty much forced ownership into a Eli Manning apology tour.

 

[nyr2k2]

All the backlash after Eli got benched last year was the worst thing that could have happened to the Giants. Pretty much forced ownership into a Eli Manning apology tour.

I feel like it could have been a good thing. Sit down Eli and discuss it. Come out and say, "Eli is a true Giants legend and we appreciate everything he has accomplished for this team. We certainly anticipate having him on our team next season. With that said, in this season where we are struggling for wins, it's important to evaluate what talent we have on the roster not just behind Eli but behind other veteran players as well." And then stick with it. The worst part was going to Geno then right back to Eli. Had they gone to Webb for a few games, and maybe then some Geno, I think it would be more palatable. It would look like there was actually a plan. The back-and-forth just made it look like they were first listening to fans that wanted Eli out, then only to fans and media that thought it was f***ed up. Made it look like they were just winging it. IMO.

I believe that if they handled it more delicately and tactfully they could have made it seem reasonable. Instead it was like, "we're just trying to please everyone but don't know how. We're not actually operating as if we're legitimately trying to do what's best for the franchise."

 

[nyr2k2]

I do think the Jets need to get a legit offensive mind ASAP.

I am actually okay with Bates. He has had some good successes and worked with good people. He's not great, but he's not awful. I've seen some good things and some bad things over the first handful of games. They could certainly upgrade but I think they can win games and be successful with him.

The problem remains the draft, IMO. Look at 2017--ArDarius Stewart. Godwin goes a few picks later, Golladay right after that. Chad Hansen--George Kittle goes right after, and instead of taking Kittle they take Leggett a few picks after that. Or they could have had Marlon Mack. Dylan Donohue is terrible and gone, like Hansen. Jeremy Clark sucks. Derrick Jones sucks. Adams and Maye were good picks, McGuire may be a good pick.

2016--god, 2016. Darron Lee, super mediocre. Hackenberg, terrible. Jordan Jenkins, pretty good pick. Burris sucks, Shell is I guess okay, Edwards is fine if you like drafting punters you probably could have signed as UDFAs, Peake is only okay because he was a 7th rounder.

2015--6 picks and only Leonard Williams is still on the roster.

2014--This was the John Idzik draft which was possibly the worst any team has ever had. 12 picks, and they're left with Quincy Enunwa and a backup lineman in Dakota Dozier. Everyone else flamed out. It was horrible. Set the team back a few years at least.

So, if you focus just on Idzik, they probably could have had a couple more skill players and maybe two more guys that can actually play on the offensive line. Maybe another LB or DL or something. Instead, jack shit. And the same for the Idzik draft; had he not made a bunch of weird picks, the Jets could be so much better off.

Obviously this is in hindsight, but so many of those picks at the time were viewed as reaches, or, "Why pick X when much more highly-regarded Y is still there?" types of picks. And to Mac's credit, he has done a good job, generally, moving picks--Sheldon Richardson for Kearse and a pick used to then acquire the Darnold pick, Pryor into what's his face, Henry Anderson for a seventh, etc. But the point remains, they've done an awful job drafting. They're also apparently scared to spend money on free agents.

 

[Bob Richards]

Giants were the first 3-13 team to conclude that they are in "win now" mode.

 

[Hunter Gathers]

I feel like it could have been a good thing. Sit down Eli and discuss it. Come out and say, "Eli is a true Giants legend and we appreciate everything he has accomplished for this team. We certainly anticipate having him on our team next season. With that said, in this season where we are struggling for wins, it's important to evaluate what talent we have on the roster not just behind Eli but behind other veteran players as well." And then stick with it. The worst part was going to Geno then right back to Eli. Had they gone to Webb for a few games, and maybe then some Geno, I think it would be more palatable. It would look like there was actually a plan. The back-and-forth just made it look like they were first listening to fans that wanted Eli out, then only to fans and media that thought it was ****ed up. Made it look like they were just winging it. IMO.

I believe that if they handled it more delicately and tactfully they could have made it seem reasonable. Instead it was like, "we're just trying to please everyone but don't know how. We're not actually operating as if we're legitimately trying to do what's best for the franchise."

They HAD to go to Geno. This has been discussed more than a few times and I don't want to rehash it yet again, but skipping over a hard-working back-up who was well-liked would've been a recipe for locker-room discontent. You give Geno his game and move on to Webb to see what he has. By all accounts, Smith put in a ton of work behind the scenes and the locker room would've had issues had he just been skipped over.

The mouthbreathers who complained to WFAN about this were too simple to understand that, though. And that outrage grew and grew (and those same folks generally ignored the fact that the team gave Manning a chance to start the games out of respect for him and his streak).

The problem was that Mara has no backbone and he's a pathetic failure at all things football over the last half decade. And this should serve as a reminder that his father was also a generally poor at running a football team largely until the league brought in Ernie Accorsi.

 

[nyr2k2]

They HAD to go to Geno. This has been discussed more than a few times and I don't want to rehash it yet again, but skipping over a hard-working back-up who was well-liked would've been a recipe for locker-room discontent. You give Geno his game and move on to Webb to see what he has. By all accounts, Smith put in a ton of work behind the scenes and the locker room would've had issues had he just been skipped over.

The mouthbreathers who complained to WFAN about this were too simple to understand that, though. And that outrage grew and grew (and those same folks generally ignored the fact that the team gave Manning a chance to start the games out of respect for him and his streak).

The problem was that Mara has no backbone and he's a pathetic failure at all things football over the last half decade. And this should serve as a reminder that his father was also a generally poor at running a football team largely until the league brought in Ernie Accorsi.

Oh man, locker room discontent! Issues! Could you f***ing imagine?!? They definitely didn't have any of that back then, and thank God they did what they did by going to Geno to preserve the tight-knit locker room culture they have now. Man, they could have really messed things up last season and this season. That would have been awful.

But, what do I know? Evidently disagreeing with you on this makes me a simple mouth-breather.

 

[Hunter Gathers]

Oh man, locker room discontent! Issues! Could you ****ing imagine?!? They definitely didn't have any of that back then, and thank God they did what they did by going to Geno to preserve the tight-knit locker room culture they have now. Man, they could have really messed things up last season and this season. That would have been awful.

But, what do I know? Evidently disagreeing with you on this makes me a simple mouth-breather.

You were calling in to WFAN (or whatever other outlet you want to cite) to curse out the Giants management and such? If that's the case, then yes. You would be. If that's not the case, then no and I'd suggest you re-read and try again.

You don't strike me as the type to call into a sports show to complain, so I'm going to assume you misread.

 

[nyr2k2]

You were calling in to WFAN (or whatever other outlet you want to cite) to curse out the Giants management and such? If that's the case, then yes. You would be. If that's not the case, then no and I'd suggest you re-read and try again.

You don't strike me as the type to call into a sports show to complain, so I'm going to assume you misread.

I complained about how it was handled. Not to WFAN specifically. I didn't realize WFAN was the variable that made one the simple mouth-breather; the way your post reads makes it sound as if those who complained, disagreeing with your take, were the simple mouth-breathers in question. But no, I didn't call into WFAN, I just verbalized/typed my complaints elsewhere. So I guess I'm safe.

 

[sbjnyc]

They HAD to go to Geno. This has been discussed more than a few times and I don't want to rehash it yet again, but skipping over a hard-working back-up who was well-liked would've been a recipe for locker-room discontent. You give Geno his game and move on to Webb to see what he has. By all accounts, Smith put in a ton of work behind the scenes and the locker room would've had issues had he just been skipped over.

The mouthbreathers who complained to WFAN about this were too simple to understand that, though. And that outrage grew and grew (and those same folks generally ignored the fact that the team gave Manning a chance to start the games out of respect for him and his streak).

The problem was that Mara has no backbone and he's a pathetic failure at all things football over the last half decade. And this should serve as a reminder that his father was also a generally poor at running a football team largely until the league brought in Ernie Accorsi.

I have an inside source that Tisch was against the sitting of Eli and that the decision was all Mara (well, that second part is deduced). I agree that traditionally you go to the next guy and there would be grumblings if Geno Smith didn't get the game. Then again, it's not like the locker room was farting rainbows and unicorns at the time anyway. So for the old school people like Boomer Esiason, it was the right choice at the time, though given the situation I still think it was the wrong choice for the future. Then again, no one is calling Davis Webb off the Jets' practice squad so who knows.

P.S. Another person told me (buyer for a major sporting goods company) that all the issues with OBJ haven't hurt his jersey sales at all.

 

[Fvital92]

 

[Hunter Gathers]

I complained about how it was handled. Not to WFAN specifically. I didn't realize WFAN was the variable that made one the simple mouth-breather; the way your post reads makes it sound as if those who complained, disagreeing with your take, were the simple mouth-breathers in question. But no, I didn't call into WFAN, I just verbalized/typed my complaints elsewhere. So I guess I'm safe.

I don't ever remember you ranting and raving like an idiot about the decision. Disagreeing is one thing and that's fine. That's why I was very specific with what I wrote, nyr.

 

[Hunter Gathers]

He forgot "Fired Reese and McAdoo for benching Eli".

 

[KirkAlbuquerque]

I am actually okay with Bates. He has had some good successes and worked with good people. He's not great, but he's not awful. I've seen some good things and some bad things over the first handful of games. They could certainly upgrade but I think they can win games and be successful with him.

The problem remains the draft, IMO. Look at 2017--ArDarius Stewart. Godwin goes a few picks later, Golladay right after that. Chad Hansen--George Kittle goes right after, and instead of taking Kittle they take Leggett a few picks after that. Or they could have had Marlon Mack. Dylan Donohue is terrible and gone, like Hansen. Jeremy Clark sucks. Derrick Jones sucks. Adams and Maye were good picks, McGuire may be a good pick.

2016--god, 2016. Darron Lee, super mediocre. Hackenberg, terrible. Jordan Jenkins, pretty good pick. Burris sucks, Shell is I guess okay, Edwards is fine if you like drafting punters you probably could have signed as UDFAs, Peake is only okay because he was a 7th rounder.

2015--6 picks and only Leonard Williams is still on the roster.

2014--This was the John Idzik draft which was possibly the worst any team has ever had. 12 picks, and they're left with Quincy Enunwa and a backup lineman in Dakota Dozier. Everyone else flamed out. It was horrible. Set the team back a few years at least.

So, if you focus just on Idzik, they probably could have had a couple more skill players and maybe two more guys that can actually play on the offensive line. Maybe another LB or DL or something. Instead, jack ****. And the same for the Idzik draft; had he not made a bunch of weird picks, the Jets could be so much better off.

Obviously this is in hindsight, but so many of those picks at the time were viewed as reaches, or, "Why pick X when much more highly-regarded Y is still there?" types of picks. And to Mac's credit, he has done a good job, generally, moving picks--Sheldon Richardson for Kearse and a pick used to then acquire the Darnold pick, Pryor into what's his face, Henry Anderson for a seventh, etc. But the point remains, they've done an awful job drafting. They're also apparently scared to spend money on free agents.

Jets drafting makes the Rangers look like the Lightning

 

[Cassano]

Poor Darnold let down by poor receiving

 

[Hi ImHFNYR]

Anderson is open downfield and is overthrown...ok
Crowell trips and fumbles...ok
Interception thrown by darnold...ok!
Ball hits Crowell right in the hand. Dropped...OK!
Darnold scrambles, tomlinson wide open for a first down. Drops it... COOOME OOOOOOOOON!!!!!!

Most obvious backward pass fumble ever...two jets stand there clueless allowing diggs to pick it up

AAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHH

 

[Hi ImHFNYR]

This is maybe the single worst "WHAT THE f*** ARE YOU DOING!? MAKE A f***ING PLAY. COME OOOOOOOON!!!!!" Game I've ever watched.