Orr Vs Gretzky

[pappyline]

Another chance to bash Gretzky, eh?

Wayne is the greatest forward of all time, Orr is the greatest defenseman. There is no point bashing either so, why do you do it?

Why do you consider celebrating Bobby Orr as Gretzy bashing?

 

[BNHL]

Eventhough i'd take Orr with a gun to my head i'll have to respectfully disagree that you think it's Orr so clear cut.99 owns about every conceivable offensive record there is and has close to 3,000 points.He was the most dominant athlete of the 1980's(not just hockey player) and dominated his sport on a level for so long in such a manner that few athletes have in modern athletic history.His run in the game of hockey is absolutely stunningly dominant by anyones measuring stick.


It's close...................very,very close.I mean bag hair close.

I never thought i'd see the day wayne gretzky,WAYNE FREAKING GRETZKY, was under-rated..................but i sincerely feel he is around here. Don't ask me how a guy who dominated this game like he did for so long could ever get under-rated by hockey fans but i think he has been now that he has'nt played for a few years.


That's how i honestly feel.

You take 5 Orrs and 5 Gretzky's and have a game. If Gretzky ever gets the puck Orr pounds him physically,takes the puck back,plays keep away again and then laughs his way to the net. Who's gonna forecheck,backcheck,bodycheck? Gretzky? Laughable.

 

[reckoning]

the +124 is a nhl record. this is by an defenseman. not a forward. this means orr was on the ice for 15 of his teams 207 goals against that year or 7% of his teams goals against.

You're mistaken on how +/- is calculated. Orr was on the ice for 55 even-strength goals against that season, not 15.

 

[revolverjgw]

You take 5 Orrs and 5 Gretzky's and have a game. If Gretzky ever gets the puck Orr pounds him physically,takes the puck back,plays keep away again and then laughs his way to the net. Who's gonna forecheck,backcheck,bodycheck? Gretzky? Laughable.

Regardless of whether or not Orr is better, this argument is what's laughable. It's pure fantasy and could never possibly happen, not even worth speculating about. I bet 5 Howes would beat 5 Gretzkys, but I certainly wouldn't take Howe over Gretzky.

Why not? Because in REALITY, superstars like these guys played with mere mortals and one of their best achievements was to make them better and carry them places... this applies more to playmaking centers than most kinds of players. Gretzky didn't play with 4 other clones of himself, he played with wingers (and d-men) of varying skill who all played very different roles. How Gretzky interacted with THEM, the Jari Kurris and the Mike Krushelynskis and the Vitali Yachmenevs and what he did with what he had to work with is what defined his greatness, not how Gretzky would interact with 4 other Gretzkys. What is this, create-a-player mode in NHL 2007 for PS2?

I can't speak for Orr and how much he improved his teammates or d-partners or whatever, way before my time, but Gretzky was better than anyone I've seen at using his teammates, and his linemates were not Wayne Gretzkys. For most of the time I was watching him, his linemates tended to be very average (or below average) players. So stop using that stupid argument.

 

[Ogopogo*]

The high-scoring 80s wouldn't have happened if not for Orr. A big reason for the production is that thanks to Orr, teams were more comfortable in allowing their players join the rush. It added a new dimension to teams' offence.

A lot of really good offensive defencemen owe their careers to Bobby Orr.

I disagree. There were excellent offensive defensemen before Orr...Shore, Harvey, Kelly...

Orr was the best offensive defenseman but people give him far too much credit for "changing" the position. He didn't change the position, he just did it better than the rest.

 

[Ogopogo*]

first, not i'm not a kid and i watched bobby orr score the goal on mothers day 1970. secondly, maybe you need to do a little reading and a little research. if pocklington was selling to highest bidder than you and i both know the rangers have an unlimited cash flow. wayne wanted to go to hollywood. the pocklington stuff is partially true but as you learned mcnall was equally as stupid finacially and went to jail over it. the fact of the matter is gretzky could have stayed in edmonton and should have. the pocklingon garbage is oilers fans rationale of it so they can be at peace with it. at leasr when orr left boston it was because he got screwed by his agent. again, documented fact.

Any credibility you might have had is now gone.

 

[notmynhl]

I started watching hockey in about 1965, and was lucky enough to watch Howe, Orr, Gretzky and Lemieux in their prime. All were amazing players who could and did completely dominate games.

Gretzky was certainly the most famous. During the 80's and 90's he was *amazingly* huge. I remember they did a poll in the US of which sports figures the general public had heard of. Gretzky finished third on that list. Granted I'm simplifying things, but Gretzky brought hockey to non-traditional markets in the US, and I would guess he generated well over a billion dollars for the NHL as a whole (any reliable info in this area appreciated). Players avoided hitting him, and referees often gave penalties for routine checks on Gretzky. He was making so much money for everyone, players and owners alike, that he was protected.

And there's the rub. How good would Gretzky have been if he had to endure the same physical punishment and tight checking as Orr, Howe, and Lemieux? Unfortunately, we will never know, but after having watched all four, I would rank them Orr, Lemiux/Howe, and then Gretzky at #4.

 

[Ogopogo*]

Players avoided hitting him, and referees often gave penalties for routine checks on Gretzky. He was making so much money for everyone, players and owners alike, that he was protected.

.

What a load of BS.

 

[Atlas]

I love both guys. I've only seen vids of Orr and as I said on another thread I don't quite understand what he was doing out there. It was like he was a move or two ahead of the other team...always. Gretzky I watched a zillion times and he was the most creative player I know of...he just saw things that the other guys didn't come close to seeing. He had the geometry figured out...defensemen had no chance. It's true that he didn't get checked much. Some of that is due to the protectionism...and a lot of it is that Gretzky was slippery and aware. He knew where everybody was on the ice.

Orr, from the vids I've seen, he just did everything a little better than everybody else. He could dangle around the ice and no one could touch him. What he did was very different from what Gretzky did.

I wouldn't question either guys' toughness. Not everyone wants to fight Bob Probert. I'll be first to admit I don't want to! And if Orr had been protected a little better maybe we would have gotten to see him a bit more.

 

[Nalyd Psycho]

Part of the problem with Orr is injuries were inevitable, one of the reasons he was so effective is because he'd never avoid a bad situation, he'd always go all out. Gretzky knew that longevity requires one to pick their spots.

 

[BNHL]

Regardless of whether or not Orr is better, this argument is what's laughable. It's pure fantasy and could never possibly happen, not even worth speculating about. I bet 5 Howes would beat 5 Gretzkys, but I certainly wouldn't take Howe over Gretzky.

Why not? Because in REALITY, superstars like these guys played with mere mortals and one of their best achievements was to make them better and carry them places... this applies more to playmaking centers than most kinds of players. Gretzky didn't play with 4 other clones of himself, he played with wingers (and d-men) of varying skill who all played very different roles. How Gretzky interacted with THEM, the Jari Kurris and the Mike Krushelynskis and the Vitali Yachmenevs and what he did with what he had to work with is what defined his greatness, not how Gretzky would interact with 4 other Gretzkys. What is this, create-a-player mode in NHL 2007 for PS2?

I can't speak for Orr and how much he improved his teammates or d-partners or whatever, way before my time, but Gretzky was better than anyone I've seen at using his teammates, and his linemates were not Wayne Gretzkys. For most of the time I was watching him, his linemates tended to be very average (or below average) players. So stop using that stupid argument.

What is stupid is to not recognize what is as obvious to anyone who has seen both that Gretzky as a complete hockey player could not carry Orr's jockstrap.It is also obvious that you never saw Orr play live or on television or you would be lying. Gretzky was a passing,scoring machine on a team with offense to burn.The man did not backcheck,forecheck,bodycheck or defend himself.These are dimensions of hockey.He had a bodyguard for crying out loud.Hockey has many facets of which scoring may be the greatest but it is only 1.In my opinion,having observed both many times,Orr was better in every respect,easily!Let me remove the opinion and offer it up as fact! If Gretzky could claim the Selke along with the Art Ross that would be a start.

 

[notmynhl]

Ogopogo, are you seriously telling me that Gretzky was treated like any other player in the NHL?

Just out of curiousity, did you watch Gretzky throughout his entire career?

 

[Ogopogo*]

What is stupid is to not recognize what is as obvious to anyone who has seen both that Gretzky as a complete hockey player could not carry Orr's jockstrap.It is also obvious that you never saw Orr play live or on television or you would be lying. Gretzky was a passing,scoring machine on a team with offense to burn.The man did not backcheck,forecheck,bodycheck or defend himself.These are dimensions of hockey.He had a bodyguard for crying out loud.Hockey has many facets of which scoring may be the greatest but it is only 1.In my opinion,having observed both many times,Orr was better in every respect,easily!Let me remove the opinion and offer it up as fact! If Gretzky could claim the Selke along with the Art Ross that would be a start.

You do realize that Orr was a defenseman, right?

Your post shows a lack of understanding on how a hockey team is built and a lack of understanding on the correct way to utilize talent.

Keep ranting and raving, I am sure it makes sense to you.

 

[Ogopogo*]

Ogopogo, are you seriously telling me that Gretzky was treated like any other player in the NHL?

Just out of curiousity, did you watch Gretzky throughout his entire career?

Afraid so, I am not a high-schooler.

Gretzky was very good at avoiding physical punishment. Players hit him but many missed him because he was so elusive.

Do you honestly believe that the NHL told the teams to not touch Gretzky because he was a good marketing tool for the league? You seriously believe that?

Gretzky was significantly better than any other player in the league during his time, that is why he scored more. Nobody was calling phantom penalties and telling teams to leave him alone. That is complete foolishness.

I challenge you to come up with some evidence to prove that ever happened. Good luck.

 

[John Belushi]

I'm not going to participate in this argument, as I've never seen Orr play, but be clear with the point you're trying to make. All of you.


Are you trying to say that Orr is the most complete player of all time, or the most skilled?

Likewise with Gretzky.

 

[Ogopogo*]

I'm not going to participate in this argument, as I've never seen Orr play, but be clear with the point you're trying to make. All of you.


Are you trying to say that Orr is the most complete player of all time, or the most skilled?

Likewise with Gretzky.

Being complete is overrated. My point is, if you are scoring 200 points per season, why on earth would you waste your time grinding? Would a brain surgeon empty bed pans? There are players with no skill that can muck and grind, Gretzky had the talent to score like nobody else so, that was his role. Why on earth would any coach ask Gretzky to waste his talent in an attempt to win a Selke?

Orr was a defenseman, he HAD to be more physical and grind more. That was his job. If he wasn't going to do that stuff he should have been a forward.

People like to speak about Orr like he was a god and how Gretzky couldn't touch Orr because he wasn't as "complete". People miss the entire point and overrate "complete". It happens on these boards every single day.

Why don't people bash Bob Gainey for not being a complete player? The guy never put up more than 47 points on one of the best offensive teams during the 70s? The bottom line is, many people are confused.

 

[notmynhl]

Ogopogo:
Afraid so, I am not a high-schooler.

Gretzky was very good at avoiding physical punishment. Players hit him but many missed him because he was so elusive.

Do you honestly believe that the NHL told the teams to not touch Gretzky because he was a good marketing tool for the league? You seriously believe that?

Gretzky was significantly better than any other player in the league during his time, that is why he scored more. Nobody was calling phantom penalties and telling teams to leave him alone. That is complete foolishness.

I challenge you to come up with some evidence to prove that ever happened. Good luck.

No, I don't think the NHL told teams not to hit Gretzky. As a matter of fact, I never said that so I find it rather disingenuous that you are bringing it up.

Gretzky was putting money in all the players pockets, and I don't think anyone went out of they way to slam him into the boards. I do know I saw instances where players could have hit him and didn't.

As for Gretzky's "elusiveness"...yes he was hard to hit, his great vision allowed him to see the ice and anticipate other's moves very early. But I don't care how elusive you are, you can be cheap shotted from behind as all of Lemiuex, Orr and Howe were. I don't care how elusive you are, you can be hooked and held up as all of Lemiuex, Orr and Howe were. For these three superstars, that was normal, for Gretzky it was rare. As a matter of fact, the NHL has just changed its rules because less talented players could and were stopping more talented players using these tactics.

I'm not denying Gretzky was a great player, he was obviously one of the best of all time. But at the same time, if you found the goose that laid the golden egg, would you kill it?

 

[notmynhl]

Ogopogo to Irodptl:
You do realize that Orr was a defenseman, right?

Your post shows a lack of understanding on how a hockey team is built and a lack of understanding on the correct way to utilize talent.

Keep ranting and raving, I am sure it makes sense to you.

Ogopogo, why are you making personal attacks on Irodptl? He was simply trying to explain the differences between Orr and Gretzky, and certainly didn't deserve to be accused of ranting and raving.

 

[orrisGod]

I disagree. There were excellent offensive defensemen before Orr...Shore, Harvey, Kelly...

Orr was the best offensive defenseman but people give him far too much credit for "changing" the position. He didn't change the position, he just did it better than the rest.

talk about blown credibility. eddie shore was not an offensive defenseman. his game was intimidation and fear. he punished his opponents. he was not a offensive force.neither was harvey. he was a solid 2 way defenseman , norris trophy winner.
if you watched the game before orr and then after then maybe you would have a clue. they called them defensemen because they played defense. the offensive zone was like the defensive zone was to gretzky, unchartered territory. so please, save your derisiveness for another posting area

 

[espo*]

I'm not even going to respond directly to the new posts saying it's so clear cut Orr over Gretzky.The guy was a tremendous player who has close to 900 goals and over 2,800 points.I think he's got more assists then anyone else has points.

I just don't feel i should have to say anything else.If a hockey fan does'nt think he's at least around Orr's level then i don't know what to say.I love Orr,he is my choice as the best of all time when cornered,but it's pretty darn close for me.

That's all.

 

[Ogopogo*]

But I don't care how elusive you are, you can be cheap shotted from behind as all of Lemiuex, Orr and Howe were. I don't care how elusive you are, you can be hooked and held up as all of Lemiuex, Orr and Howe were. For these three superstars, that was normal, for Gretzky it was rare. As a matter of fact, the NHL has just changed its rules because less talented players could and were stopping more talented players using these tactics.

I'm not denying Gretzky was a great player, he was obviously one of the best of all time. But at the same time, if you found the goose that laid the golden egg, would you kill it?

Remember Gary Suter cross-checking Gretzky into the boards? I remember many players being used to "shadow" Gretzky - perhaps the best example being Esa Tikkanen when Gretzky was in LA. Tikk hooked, slashed and did all the other stuff.

What rule was changed to protect Gretzky? The only rule change I know of that was made in response to Gretzky and the Oilers was to keep playing 5 on 5 when there were coincidental minor penalties - the Oilers were GREAT 4 on 4. The rule was to slow Gretzky and the Oilers down.

If you have some specific evidence how the NHL made Gretzky's life easier than everyone else's, I would love to hear it.

 

[Ogopogo*]

Ogopogo, why are you making personal attacks on Irodptl? He was simply trying to explain the differences between Orr and Gretzky, and certainly didn't deserve to be accused of ranting and raving.

I think if you reread his post, you will see that he was ranting and raving.

 

[Ogopogo*]

talk about blown credibility. eddie shore was not an offensive defenseman. his game was intimidation and fear. he punished his opponents. he was not a offensive force.neither was harvey. he was a solid 2 way defenseman , norris trophy winner.
if you watched the game before orr and then after then maybe you would have a clue. they called them defensemen because they played defense. the offensive zone was like the defensive zone was to gretzky, unchartered territory. so please, save your derisiveness for another posting area

Shore finished in the top 7 in assists twice during his career and his best offensive season was 35 points in 48 games. In today's NHL that would make him an offensive threat like that of Pronger or Lidstrom.

Doug Harvey was top 7 in the NHL in assists 4 times and had a high water mark of 50 points in 70 games. What is a 50 point defenseman worth today?

Even Bill Gadsby was top 7 in NHL assists 3 times - finishing 3rd once and 4th once. Twice he cracked the 50 point barrier in a 70 game season.


Orr was DEFINITELY NOT the first offensive defenseman in the game. He was the best but certainly not the first.

Don't let the facts interfere with your perception.

 

[God Bless Canada]

I'm not going to participate in this argument, as I've never seen Orr play, but be clear with the point you're trying to make. All of you.


Are you trying to say that Orr is the most complete player of all time, or the most skilled?

Likewise with Gretzky.

I would say he's the best player ever. I think Gretzky is the best offensive player ever, and far-and-away the best ever when it comes to seeing and thinking the game. He saw the things that nobody else could, and almost seemed to know what an opponent would do before the opponent knew.

But to me, for a player to match Orr's game, he'd need Gretzky's offensive game, plus Messier's toughness and Kurri's defensive play.

 

[God Bless Canada]

Shore finished in the top 7 in assists twice during his career and his best offensive season was 35 points in 48 games. In today's NHL that would make him an offensive threat like that of Pronger or Lidstrom.

Doug Harvey was top 7 in the NHL in assists 4 times and had a high water mark of 50 points in 70 games. What is a 50 point defenseman worth today?

Even Bill Gadsby was top 7 in NHL assists 3 times - finishing 3rd once and 4th once. Twice he cracked the 50 point barrier in a 70 game season.


Orr was DEFINITELY NOT the first offensive defenseman in the game. He was the best but certainly not the first.

Don't let the facts interfere with your perception.

Defencemen just weren't allowed to jump up into the rush until Orr arrived. Orr's arrival completely changed the game. It added a new dimension to the sport, and gave players a shot at the show who normally wouldn't have had a chance, certainly not on the blue line. Coffey would have had to play forward. Housley would have had to play forward. A guy like Sandis Ozolinsch would have likely never cracked the NHL.

I would have loved to have seen the numbers that guys like Horton, Harvey, Pilote, Kelly and Gadsby would have put up had they played at a time when defencemen were encouraged to join the rush. They had skill and great offensive instincts. But back then, they truly were defencemen.

Shore played during the most defensive era in NHL history. Him and King Clancy were excellent offensive defencemen. Jumping into the play was encouraged a little more in the late 20s and throughout the 30s, but not as much as it has been since Orr entered the league.