Orr, Shore and Harvey
- Thread starter Canadiens1958
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Michael Farkas
Celebrate 68
Nice to know that the takes on Harvey in the article are exactly as I've seen it watching him. He was unreal in terms of game control and zone exits. Good find.
The Panther
Registered User
You know it's an older article when the writer refers to Shore as defenceman "of the modern era".
Canadiens1958
Registered User
BobbyAwe
Registered User
I'm a bit taken aback that Milt's comments DON'T seem to indicate, that, in his opinion, Orr was any greater than Shore? He says Shore was better defensively but in every other aspect they may have been equivalent? The only way I can explain that is this was still early in Bobby's career? There is no question that, in comments by a much older Schmidt, he expressed his opinion that Orr was not only the greatest D-man ever but the best PLAYER ever, and that it wasn't even close?
I find it difficult to believe that any player from the 1920's/30's could compare to Orr or many of the other superstars that came later on as hockey evolved and the talent pool expanded? However, I read a quote from Don Cherry (which I hope someone can find, probably in his book?) where he said that Orr and Shore were the two greatest skaters he had ever seen? That Eddie, as a coach in the 1950's, could skate as fast BACKWARDS as most of the players did forwards! Maybe someone can find this and get a more accurate wording because if Shore (in his prime) was in any way comparable to Orr in skating, that would destroy my whole ideological take on the sport in general. I'm not against making adjustments in my theories and opinions, and I guess I might be persuaded by enough comments by people who saw BOTH play and were honest, but my basic perspective is that if you put Orr back in Shore's day he would have been seen as not just the greatest but SUPERHUMAN.
My general take on Shore was that he was ONE of the most talented players of his era, but that his toughness, fearlessness, intensity, flamboyance, and style also contributed a to his overall acclaim and status as a revolutionary player. I'm trying not to offend the hockey Gods, but I'm insinuating that his ICONIC-NESS may have had just as much to do with his legendary status as his talent?
I find it difficult to believe that any player from the 1920's/30's could compare to Orr or many of the other superstars that came later on as hockey evolved and the talent pool expanded? However, I read a quote from Don Cherry (which I hope someone can find, probably in his book?) where he said that Orr and Shore were the two greatest skaters he had ever seen? That Eddie, as a coach in the 1950's, could skate as fast BACKWARDS as most of the players did forwards! Maybe someone can find this and get a more accurate wording because if Shore (in his prime) was in any way comparable to Orr in skating, that would destroy my whole ideological take on the sport in general. I'm not against making adjustments in my theories and opinions, and I guess I might be persuaded by enough comments by people who saw BOTH play and were honest, but my basic perspective is that if you put Orr back in Shore's day he would have been seen as not just the greatest but SUPERHUMAN.
My general take on Shore was that he was ONE of the most talented players of his era, but that his toughness, fearlessness, intensity, flamboyance, and style also contributed a to his overall acclaim and status as a revolutionary player. I'm trying not to offend the hockey Gods, but I'm insinuating that his ICONIC-NESS may have had just as much to do with his legendary status as his talent?
The Macho King
Back* to Back** World Champion
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I wouldn't take it too seriously that Orr isn't rated higher there - this is in '69? So while you knew you were dealing with something special, he did only score 64 points and probably didn't seem orders of magnitude beyond what had come before. The comparison may have been very different if it occurred only a year later, frankly.
Michael Farkas
Celebrate 68
I also doubt that Shore was a great backward skater given how they talk about his skating posture. He also didn't relent. He just hit people. There's no back skating to match speed or calibrate appropriate angles if you're a speed bump (spike strip?) at the blueline. Schmidt played with Shore, it was young Orr, I'm not too concerned. I'm also on record as being very pro-Orr and I'm about as down on Shore as anyone here that's not age-ist...
Canadiens1958
Registered User
Article was published Monday, November 3, 1969, talking about a young Orr entering his 4th season, after a Saturday night game the Bruins lost 9-2 to the Canadiens.
Game stories available on adjacent pages.
Game stories available on adjacent pages.
The Macho King
Back* to Back** World Champion
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And Cherry isn't what I would call a great commentator on something like this. He's prone to exaggeration to say the least.
seventieslord
Student Of The Game
And just to be clear, this is based on a highlight video that was... How long again? And featured how many plays?
Michael Farkas
Celebrate 68
Plus, the piles of newspaper accounts that jive with the little film we have...talking about his forward rushes, hard hitting, getting caught up ice, etc. This is the first and only time I have seen anyone mention his backward skating and we don't even have it on record, right?
I'm not taking away his Harts...I'm just saying we have a ton of evidence pointing to this...most, in fact.
I'm not taking away his Harts...I'm just saying we have a ton of evidence pointing to this...most, in fact.
seventieslord
Student Of The Game
How many clips of Shore's contemporaries defending rushes have you seen?
And what is the answer to my first question, please remind me.
Canadiens1958
Registered User
Shore played pre Center Red Line, a period when backward skating was non-essential compared to post Center Red Line
seventieslord
Student Of The Game
Michael Farkas
Celebrate 68
Whatever is publicly available from that time, I've seen. So I have some base line to compare it to.
The video is like 4ish minutes I think. I don't recall exactly.
tarheelhockey
Offside Review Specialist
Not to mention that Shore played a decade of high level hockey pre-forward pass, which means he was trained in a completely different tactical world.
I'm sure he learned and adjusted as the rules changed, but realistically there's a limit to how much a defenseman can do to reinvent himself in his late 20s. One of the major changes after forward passing and eventually the red line, was the level of directional agility required of defensemen in order to be effective. A lot of defensemen in Shore's era were almost stationary objects by modern standards, the idea being to pounce on the attack as it got close to the net rather than gapping them the entire length of the ice.
I guess I'd consider myself high on Shore, but I do think he had some significant negatives which tend to get whitewashed.
vadim sharifijanov
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JackSlater
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I don't think it's a negative to Orr that he's being compared that way to Shore less than a month into his breakout (in the pantheon sense) season. This is very early in Orr's transition from potential all time great to absolute all time great.
No doubt that if the HOH section on HF Boards was around in November of 69 there would be posts of the severally watered down post expansion era and Orr needs to win 5 SCs to be in the conversation of legends like Harvey and Shore.
An earlier poster stated that he had "only" scored 64 points the season before.
Any viewer of hockey in 69 could see greatness in Orr as it unfolded before them.
JackSlater
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Yeah, you're probably correct. Orr couldn't survive playing 1930s hockey, this era doesn't even have players who can hook check, he'd be nothing without the forward pass etc.
DannyGallivan
Your world frightens and confuses me
TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
So Shore was trained in an era of no forward pass, yet still stood out as easily the best defenseman of the "forward pass allowed, but not between zones" era. Being able to adapt that well between completely different rules environments - it certainly seems to me that the 1930 rule change was an even bigger one than the 1944 rule change - and people still question whether (at least a younger Shore) could adapt to the 1944 rule change?
I sometimes still can't believe I'm put into position to have to defend Shore.
tarheelhockey
Offside Review Specialist
I mean he was still the best defenseman, maybe the best overall player in the league.
I don’t think it’s clear that he was the best skater in the league, even among defensemen. He was certainly very fast, very daring, extremely physical. Skating forward with the puck or rushing to check an opponent he was a terror. He was also known to take an absolute ton of penalties and not all of those were him losing his cool and attacking people. IMO there’s a reasonable amount of circumstantial evidence to argue that he was an outstanding forward skater but below the all-time elite level going backward. And that evidence isn’t countered by positive evidence about his defensive skating (that I’m aware of).
tony d
Registered User
3 of the top defensemen ever. This was from 1969, I wonder if at that time people knew just how good Orr would become.
