OPPF2020 Quarter-Final: San Jose Rubber Puckies vs. Portland Winterhawks

[BenchBrawl]

San Jose Rubber Puckies

Coach: Scotty Bowman

Ted Lindsay (A) - Howie Morenz - Jaromir Jagr
Vladimir Krutov - Stan Mikita - Vaclav Nedomansky
Brian Propp - Anze Kopitar - Daniel Alfredsson (A)
Gary Roberts - Vincent LeCavalier - Blake Wheeler

Borje Salming - Brad Park
Moose Johnson - Dit Clapper (C)
Derian Hatcher - Sergei Gonchar

Martin Brodeur
Mike Liut

PP1: Ted Lindsay - Howie Morenz - Jaromir Jagr - Daniel Alfredsson - Sergei Gonchar
PP2: Vladimir Krutov - Stan Mikita - Vaclav Nedomansky - Dit Clapper - Brad Park
PK1: Anze Kopitar - Brian Propp - Moose Johnson - Derian Hatcher
PK2: Howie Morenz - Vladimir Krutov - Borje Salming - Dit Clapper
Spare PK: Stan Mikita - Daniel Alfredsson, Brad Park


Vs.


Portland Winterhawks
coach Anatoli Tarasov
Soviet-style star wingers & grinding pivots

Bobby Hull - Elmer Lach (A) - Sergei Makarov
Michel Goulet - Ron Francis (A) - Brett Hull
Patrik Elias - Pavel Datsyuk - Bryan Hextall, Sr.
John Tonelli - Ryan Kesler - Shane Doan

King Clancy - Raymond Bourque (C)
Lionel Conacher - Hod Stuart
Kevin Lowe - Eric Desjardins

Turk Broda
Jiri Holecek​

PK1: Broda, Datsyuk, Kesler, Bourque, Lowe
PK2: Broda, Francis, Makarov, Conacher, Desjardins
PP1: Hull, Lach, Makarov, Clancy, Bourque
PP2: Goulet, Francis, Hull, Stuart, Desjardins​

Click to read more...

 

[VanIslander]

There is a lot going on here.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Two teams with very different strategies: I decided early on that I would focus on having the strongest possible top 6 forwards, top 4 D, and goaltending, and let my depth fall where they may. (This was somewhat disturbed when I drafted Kopitar before my 2nd line wings, but overall I followed it).

By the way, this is pretty much what I do every ATD... team core first, then fill in major special teams roles, then fill out the rest of the roster. And by "team core," I usually mean "full 1st line + 2nd line catalyst + top 3/4 D + goaltending" Of course, filling the different parts of the core in different order results in a very different team.

And while you didn't ignore the core of your team (daddy Hull, Bourque, Clancy is a fantastic start to a core), you definitely went cheap on your top 2 Cs (including waiting until the final round again to draft your Montreal player).

First impressions / opening arguments:

• San Jose's biggest strength is in the center of the ice, which also happens to be Portland's biggest weakness. Lach is the weakest #1 center in the draft by a pretty big margin, while San Jose boast both Morenz and Mikita, each of whom would be a pretty good #1 C in a draft this size (#5 / #7 Cs of all-time according to the recent HOH Top 100). This goes beyond Morenz and Mikita, however. While Kopitar is definitely not as good as some of the 3Cs in this draft, at this point I don't see what Ron Francis or Pavel Datsyuk has really done that he hasn't. I liked most of your picks, VI, but I really didn't understand the Francis one when you made it that early.
• San Jose's strength in the center of the ice extends to goaltending.
• Portland has an advantage on the blueline because of their excellent top pairing. I guess it just wouldn't be right for me to steal a Shore/Kelly level defenseman late in the 3rd round for the 3rd draft in a row, eh? Clapper as SJ's #3C is a really big advantage for San Jose, and it definitely narrows the gap, but it doesn't completely erase it.
• Bryan Hextall on a 3rd line is a nice bonus for you.
• Minor point: I like San Jose's coach/player chemistry a little better. Neither fit is perfect, but San Jose's 3 offense-only players (Jagr, Nedomansky, Gonchar) are where Bowman actually uses them - on the wing or as a bottom pairing dman, used basically as "offensive ringers." The rest of the team, including all the Cs are fairly strong two-ways. Tarasov was even more of a strict system coach than Bowman, and I really don't like the fit with the Hulls.
• Minor point: Centers on special teams. Specifically, Portland doesn't have that real #1 PK C. Datsyuk, despite his Selkes, wasn't really Detroit's top option on the PK. It wasn't just ice time management, either, as when things hit the fan in the playoffs, they went with the grittier Zetterberg as their top PK guy. Is this "double dipping" with point #1? Maybe.

 

[VanIslander]

Having defensive-skilled centers is a strength against a puck-carrying pivot. Morenz will be very frustrated.

 

[VanIslander]

Don't judge line vs. line.

The Soviet trio way: wingers and a dman up, center pass and backcheck. (Tarasov defined the strategy. Petrov & Larionov played it later to a 'T'.)

Bobby Hull, Sergei Makarov, Ray Bourque (let the potency of that trio sink in.... it's incredible, eh?).

Michel Goulet, Brett Hull, Hod Stuart.
(Note: Goulet scored 40+ goals for 7-consecutive seasons despite never having a great passing pivot - Dale Hunter - and yet he had more assists than goals, is a hitter and speedster, wasted in Quebec; Stuart is the greatest defenseman over the first 25 years of Stanley Cup history.)

This team was built around two star wingers of the Hull family. I did NOT want any puckhog center. I panned undrafteds Newsy friggin' Lalonde and Norm underrated Ullman for Elmer Lach & Pavel Datsyuk 'cuz of chemistry (we are building teams not all-star game line-ups, right? Chemistry matters a lot).This team's centers win faceoffs, pass and drop back, allowing the wingers to go full tilt, a skilled dman up at the point to convert passes if needed.

Moreover, in the playoffs, the 5-cup 3rd-ranked all-time (in the HOH project) Stanley Cup hero Turk Broda is better in the playoffs than system-d Team Canada backup repeatedly Brodeur.

Plus, the 3rd & 4th lines are a clear mismatch. Expect that to be a factor in a 7-game series.

And I haven't talked about leadership yet...

 

[VanIslander]

Dit Clapper (c)
Ted Lindsay (a)
Daniel Alfredsson (a)

vs.

Ray Bourque (C)
Elmer Lach (A)
Ron Francis (A)

The latter three are among the top leaders in NHL history vs. the former three... not's. Seriously, it ain't close in terms of leadership.

 

[VanIslander]

Portland has the three most prolific shooters in the series in Hull, Hull & Bourque.

The opposing defense is below average for this draft.

Brodeur will face a lot more shots than he was used to in New Jersey.

 

[VanIslander]

Have some respect for Elmer Lach.

He was the NHL assist leader and Hart trophy winner when his linemate Rocket Richard scored 50 in 50 (Here he has Bobby Hull).

He retired the then-record leader in career assists. The 3-time Hart finalist twice led the NHL in playoff assists to cup victories.

His speed and grit and play in corners and in traffic are legendary. Richard said Lach cussed him out when he went into corners. Lach said he himself was to get the puck, Rocket was supposed to get into position to shoot and score.

THAT is why i targeted Lach as an ideal pivot for Bobby Hull. Makarov an ideal skating, passing selfless team player linemate. I mean, isn't this as good as it gets for Bobby Hull?

Excerpts from his overpass' ATD BIO:

Most observers were particularly impressed with his blinding speed and devotion to defensive play.

The skilled centre was master of the faceoff and was effective defensively as he was in the offensive zone. The Hockey News ranked Lach number 68 on their 100 Greatest Hockey Players...

He is the late round gem of the draft (due to Habs deepness of talent history - **** i panned Lalonde for him! Can you see why?)

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Having defensive-skilled centers is a strength against a puck-carrying pivot. Morenz will be very frustrated.

I really don't know why Morenz keeps getting called a "puck carrying pivot." Mikita was a big time puck carrier.

From a 1952 Dink Carroll column that keeps floating around:

Milt Schmidt, Syl Apps, Teeder Kennedy, Sid Abel, and even Howie Morenz are not classified in the trade as great playmakers, though acknowledged as great hockey players.

"They belong to the 'driving' type of player, Dick Irvin said. "Fellows like Schmidt, Kennedy, and Abel go into the corners and get the puck out to their wings." Apps used to hit the defense at top speed and Drillion would come behind and pick up his garbage. Apps used to get sore when I told him that Drillion profited from his mistakes.

Howie Morenz wasn't a good playmaker, said Elmer Ferguson. "Aurel Joliat was the playmaker on that line and the greatest playmaking left-winger of all time. Just like Bobby Bauer at right wing was the playmaker for the Kraut Line."​

The Montreal Gazette - Google News Archive Search
​

From my readings elsewhere, pre-1944, when it was illegal to pass the puck forward between zones, rushing the puck into the offensive zone was considered a big part of what defined a "playmaker," so I think that in modern terms, Joliat (and Kraut) would be considered the primary puck carriers of their lines, even as Morenz (and Schmidt) had more assists recorded.

I actually see Jagr as the primary puck carrier of my top line, much like Joliat was for Morenz in real life. Just because Morenz COULD go end to end with the puck (as seen in that brief series of highlights), doesn't mean that was the way he primarily played, at least according to Irvin, Ferguson, etc.

There's also the fact that Morenz was probably a better DEFENSIVE player than Elmer Lach, in addition to being miles better as a goal scorer.

 

[VanIslander]

"The fact"? Are you kidding us?

No way Morenz is better defensively than Lach.

The absurdity of this from such a respected poster may require a History main board thread to sort it out.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Don't judge line vs. line.

The Soviet trio way: wingers and a dman up, center pass and backcheck. (Tarasov defined the strategy. Petrov & Larionov played it later to a 'T'.)

Bobby Hull, Sergei Makarov, Ray Bourque (let the potency of that trio sink in.... it's incredible, eh?).

Good talent, but I really can't see Makarov working all that well with Bobby Hull. I mean, it's been established that Mikita didn't play well with Hull because Hull was kind of a puck hog, so I see Makarov really getting less touches than he's used to. I mean, maybe Makarov is smart enough to adjust his game; I just think that if you aren't using Makarov as big time puck carrier, you aren't getting the most out of him.

If I ever draft Bobby Hull (and I hope I do!), I'd draft him a pair of linemates who excelled at playing off the puck.

Moreover, in the playoffs, the 5-cup 3rd-ranked all-time (in the HOH project) Stanley Cup hero Turk Broda is better in the playoffs than system-d Team Canada backup repeatedly Brodeur.

Meh. I really disagree with this type of reasoning. If you really believe this, why don't you draft Broda well before Brodeur in the ATD where positions don't matter?

To your other points... if Brodeur is a "system goalie," then so is Broda, who did everything he did of note playing behind a very tight Hap Day coached team.

Team Canada backup?

Plus, the 3rd & 4th lines are a clear mismatch. Expect that to be a factor in a 7-game series.

Not really. You have Bryan Hextall on the third line, which is great, but beyond that, the talent on the bottom lines is very similar. I was actually surprised that you didn't end up with a better bottom 6, given what you sacrificed on your top 2 centers.[/quote]

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Dit Clapper (c)
Ted Lindsay (a)
Daniel Alfredsson (a)

vs.

Ray Bourque (C)
Elmer Lach (A)
Ron Francis (A)

The latter three are among the top leaders in NHL history vs. the former three... not's. Seriously, it ain't close in terms of leadership.

I agree it isn't close, and that's because San Jose has better leadership across the board.

Fun fact: Clapper was captain of the Bruins for 14 years; Bourque for 15 years. Given that the league was smaller when Clapper played, the average career was shorter, and his team was more successful than Bourque's Bruins, I would think that Clapper is the more accomplished team captain.

Ted Lindsay's leadership was legendary, and he wore the C for a few years after Abel retired. You're really comparing the leadership of Elmer Lach (who never wore a C in the NHL) to that of Ted Lindsay?

Alfredsson vs Francis as leaders seems like a wash to me.

 

[VanIslander]

TDMM...

Do you really believe Makarov is a more of a puck hog than a pyck distributor? ... i cannot believe you tried to go there...

Your silence on Elias, a guy you love, speaks volumes.

As soon as i missed out on Keon I thought Broda a near equivalent Leaf pick.

 

[VanIslander]

I agree it isn't close, and that's because San Jose has better leadership across the board.

Fun fact: Clapper was captain of the Bruins for 14 years; Bourque for 15 years. Given that the league was smaller when Clapper played, the average career was shorter, and his team was more successful than Bourque's Bruins, I would think that Clapper is the more accomplished team captain.

Ted Lindsay's leadership was legendary, and he wore the C for a few years after Abel retired. You're really comparing the leadership of Elmer Lach (who never wore a C in the NHL) to that of Ted Lindsay?

Alfredsson vs Francis as leaders seems like a wash to me.

After i clearly lose the popular vote, i will re-visit this monstrosity. Ugh.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

"The fact"? Are you kidding us?

No way Morenz is better defensively than Lach.

The absurdity of this from such a respected poster may require a History main board thread to sort it out.

I doubt the gap defensively between Morenz and Lach was that much; both were very good defensively for scorers, but the praise for Morenz's defensive ability just looks so much more adamant than that of Lach. ATD 2013 BIO Thread (quotes, stats, pics, sources, everything)

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

TDMM...

Do you really believe Makarov is a more of a puck hog than a pyck distributor? ... i cannot believe you tried to go there...

I didn't call Makarov a puck hug, I called Bobby Hull a puck hog (as Hull's teammate Glenn Hall did in the press). How is Makarov going to distribute the puck if Hull is taking it end to end?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Your silence on Elias, a guy you love, speaks volumes.

I didn't even do a complete analysis of our bottom lines yet. (Neither did you).

Yes, your 3rd line wingers are very good for a team that isn't using its 3rd line as a checking line.

In a ranking exercise, Propp is clearly the weakest of our 3rd line wingers, though I think he's a better fit to a checking line than Elias or Hextall

(To the extent you are using a Soviet system with no checking line, I think your 3rd line is a great fit, btw).

 

[VanIslander]

How is Makarov going to distribute the puck if Hull is taking it end to end?

Huh?

Your spins are making me dizzy.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Huh?

Your spins are making me dizzy.

Do you have anything substantive to offer?

 

[VanIslander]

"How is Makarov going to pass if Bobby Hull is going to go end to end?"

Is that really your pressing question?

*flabbergastered*

EDIT: so?... what does Bobby Hull need - since he's already well-known as the greatest left winger ever, always top-5 to top-10 in rankings - in terms of linemates?

I thought a rich-man's Fedorov to skate and backcheck (Lach) and an elite skating selfless passing guy who also was top-unit penalty kill for a decade for an awesome all-time great team (1980's Soviets' Makarov).

 

[VanIslander]

Krutov, Nedomansky, Propp, Kopitar, Alfredsson, Roberts, LeCavalier, Wheeler... plus Clapper captain? Hatcher, Gonchar

Half of the team I would NOT draft. The other half, of course.

I think Portland is much deeper in talent.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Krutov, Nedomansky, Propp, Kopitar, Alfredsson, Roberts, LeCavalier, Wheeler... plus Clapper captain? Hatcher, Gonchar

Half of the team I would NOT draft. The other half, of course.

I think Portland is much deeper in talent.

This is the second time you've expressed that you don't think Dit Clapper is a good Captain, can you please explain why (especially since your opponent already refuted this with an explanation comparing his captains to yours).

 

[VanIslander]

1. Clapper isn't a perennial candidate in convos of greatest captains ever; Bourque is.

2. Clapper captained Boston for 6 years and never made the finals but suddenly the captaincy went to another player for a year (veteran Weiland) and they won the cup! Then Weiland took over coaching duties and the Bruins won another cup!

3. After that, Clapper went six years as captain with no divisional titles, and two cup final appearances in a 6-team league, the depleted 1943 postseason and 1946.

4. Scratch & sniff. C'mon. We read history books, don't we? Clapper as ANYWHERE NEAR Bourque in Bruins captains history?????? That is absurd. You should be ashamed of yourself, as Shannon tells Skip often.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

1. Clapper isn't a perennial candidate in convos of greatest captains ever; Bourque is.

2. Clapper captained Boston for 6 years and never made the finals but suddenly the captaincy went to another player for a year (veteran Weiland) and they won the cup! Then Weiland took over coaching duties and the Bruins won another cup!

3. After that, Clapper went six years as captain with no divisional titles, and two cup final appearances in a 6-team league, the depleted 1943 postseason and 1946.

4. Scratch & sniff. C'mon. We read history books, don't we? Clapper as ANYWHERE NEAR Bourque in Bruins captains history?????? That is absurd. You should be ashamed of yourself, as Shannon tells Skip often.

I guess I just never considered Bourque "in convos of greatest captains ever." Good captain, sure. All-time great captain? I mean, how do we judge that?

Clapper's leadership is praised proficiently in his LOH bio, and in 1944, Frank Boucher said this:

Coach Frank Boucher of New York Rangers, in an interview tonight, said he believes Aubrey (Dit) Clapper, Boston Bruins defenceman, is the greatest player in present-day hockey.
...
The New York mentor termed Clapper "the greatest ice general" he ever saw. He has highly developed power of leadership and the ability to inspire and preserve balance among his associates. Clapper knows hockey perhaps better than anyone else in the business, Boucher said.

Ottawa Citizen - Google News Archive Search

I was also under the impression that Clapper's leadership was widely considered one of the reasons (along with his then-unique longevity and versatility) he was the first player for whom the HHOF waived the waiting period.

The last two seasons of his career, he actually served as player-coach and captain at the same time.

 

[BenchBrawl]

I don't see it that Bourque is a better captain than Clapper at all. I mean, we can't ever know for sure, but with our necessarily superficial knowledge of leadership, Clapper looks like a stronger leader to me (though not by far).

San Jose has weak leadership depth (Lindsay and Alfredsson as A's is rather weak at this level), but Clapper is not the problem (even if I wouldn't consider him a strong captain at this level neither).

However, it's not like Portland is bleeding leadership neither. Francis was captain for a long time but it doesn't mean I'd consider him a super leader at this level.