OPPF 2020 - Assassination Thread

Hawkey Town 18

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Jun 29, 2009
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I'm back home just in time to vote. Most have probably voted already, but I still wanted to give some short replies to these assassinations, and give a thanks to @ChiTownPhilly, @BenchBrawl, and @ResilientBeast for the feedback!

Don't think I can sugar-coat that I find Jamie Benn below-average in a twelve-team paradigm.

I think Benn is fine as the 3rd best player on a second line here. His 7yr and 10 yr vs.X scores are the same as John LeClair and he similarly brings a physical game, but unlike LeClair who had Lindros, Benn was a primary driver of offense on his teams. A strong performance in this year's Cup run has done a lot for his resume as well.

I'm not as sold on Holik as I am on a few of his Czechoslovak teammates... but with Schmidt-Recchi, what does it really matter?!

What always impresses me about Holik's resume is how well he did in CSSR Golden Stick Voting...

5x Top 5 in Golden Stick Voting: 2nd (1973), 2nd (1974), 3rd (1969), 3rd (1975), 5th (1971)

Holik's Golden Stick voting compared to other CSSR great forwards. These figures are the percentage of votes received for the Golden Stick and the work was done by Sturminator.

Vladimir Martinec__: 16.4, 16.3, 15.3, 11.8, 8.5, 7.5, 7.4, 7.0, 5.9, 5.6, 5.0, 1.0

Milan Novy________: 15.3, 13.6, 13.4, 11.4, 10.5, 7.8, 6.3, 4.2, 2.1, 0.9

Vaclav Nedomansky: 13.5, 13.5, 10.9, 9.4, 8.6, 6.5

Jiri Holik_________: 14.5, 13.8, 11.5, 6.5, 6.4, 6.3, 6.3, 5.2, 2.8, 0.4

Ivan Hlinka_______: 16.3, 11.5, 9.5, 7.6, 5.6, 5.1, 5.1, 5.0, 4.5, 2.7, 0.4​


Coaching: Hap Day. Will love: Hossa, H. Richard, Schmidt, Ching Johnson [I suppose]. Will make peace with: Red Kelly, Recchi, Conacher. Then there's Ovechkin. That interaction might be good for a few headlines...

Ovechkin won a Cup with Barry Trotz as his coach, also a task-master like Day, so I don't see that relationship being an issue. Also, Day gave a little more leash to his stars like Syl Apps, unlike a guy like Punch Imlach or Mike Keenan who seem to go after everybody.

Vasiliev is best-poised to play the role of pressure-valve for that dynamic. Many good options for your letter-assignments, and the ones you chose make sense to me.

Yes, the reason I gave Vasiliev the C (or K) is because he wasn't afraid to stand up to Tikhonov, yet the team did not seem to fall into disarray either, as they were very successful during this time, including winning a Canada Cup. Day wasn't as much of tyrant as Tikhonov, but he was strict, so it's nice to have a leader who can handle that.


2nd line: Ambivalent. In the classic Moore-Henri-Richard line, true that Moore provided some playmaking, but he also provided defense and way more gritty than Benn (who, in his career as a whole, wasn't much of a physical player IMO).

We are seeing something different here, I've seen plenty of physicality from Benn (especially considering how the game is played today), I think he's one of the few legit power forwards remaining in the league.

A word on forwards TOI: Richard not having the most ES minute is a travesty. I get and accept that even though he didn't play PK or PP much IRL, it doesn't mean he's not a good choice for those. But ideally, I'd try to at least play him to his strenght a little more, since he proved he was an elite ES player.

This is a fair point, I will go back to my minutes chart and try to give him a little more ES time (likely will just take him off the PK alltogether)

Kelly gives you a good #1D, which is important because you have no real #2D (or at least, no strong one) ... Getting Ching so late was a big boost. On the value level, there's a gap between your #1D and whoever is your #2D, but your 2-3-4 defensemen are all solid.

Yes, strictly looking at numbers in a 12 team draft (i.e. #1-12 Dmen of all time are considered #1D, etc.), I probably have no #2 D, but I think Doughty, Vasiliev, and Johnson are all strong/above-average #3's, so it works out, and I think the chemistry is good, with the 1st pair being the obvious offensive-defensive combo, and the skillset on my 2nd pair being similar to Muzzin - Doughty (although Johnson appears to be nastier/more physical than Muzzin).

PP1: Excellent, though Kelly wasn't as great a PPQB as you'd expect for an offensive defenseman of his stature. He was under Harvey and Gadsby in his era IIRC. Ovechkin is elite, and Taylor-Conacher are solid. Not sure what to think of Benn here, as I presume he's the net presence.

I'm honestly not sure about specifics regarding Red Kelly on the PP. However, we do know he was an excellent puck rusher, which is an important part of gaining the zone on a PP, and in terms of overall offense, he's elite, a clear 3rd best all-time behind Orr and Coffey IMO.

You are correct, Benn is the net presence. He's not afraid to go to dirty areas and we saw him parked in front of the net often in this year's playoffs. Also, his PP goal scoring stats are surprisingly good, in the last 7 yrs he ranks 6th in PP goals, just one behind Crosby. BTW, Ovechkin has a monstrous lead over that same period, with over 50 PP goals more than 2nd place (133-83)!

PP2: This unit is pretty weak. Already Henri on a PP is a so-so strategy that you do from lack of option, Stevens is a good net presence and Schmidt I guess is good as a generic offensive contributor to the unit, but Doughty-Recchi doesn't strike fear in my heart.

No real complaint here, I think Henri is fine on a second unit, but yeah, all my guys are average second unit guys, nothing special. I'm a big believer in stacking the first unit and giving them a lot of extra time, Ovechkin-Kelly, for example will be out there for most of the time. Now that I think about it, I'm going to increase Taylor's PP time, and have Henri take a shift or two of his at ES. Henri fits in nicely as the pivot on my first line.

PK2: forwards are great, defensemen so-so.
I am surprised to hear this, is it Kelly or Wentworth that you have an issue with?

Overall a word I would use to describe this team is deep. It' had a lot of layers to it, especially upfront. It has no super-weakness. It fits well with the coach Hap Day too. I would call it a grinding team, that beats you by grinding you up match-up after match-up. Would be interesting to see it in action in the playoffs.

Adding to this, I think we will be especially dangerous on the counter-attack, with a lot of speed and a couple of high end scorers that can finish on their own if needed in Ovechkin and Conacher.

You know Hossa better than I do so maybe I'm wrong, but Ovechkin and Taylor aren't the type of players to dig the puck out of the corners so you might face some challenges if the puck is deep in the opposing zone. But in transition a deadly unit.

I always thought Ovechkin was actually a pretty good forechecker with his physical game, and can help create turnovers. Maybe you are referring to more of a cycle game? This is something Hossa is great at, but I'm not sure about Ovie.
 
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BenchBrawl

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I'm honestly not sure about specifics regarding Red Kelly on the PP. However, we do know he was an excellent puck rusher, which is an important part of gaining the zone on a PP, and in terms of overall offense, he's elite, a clear 3rd best all-time behind Orr and Coffey IMO.

Just a few things that would deserve deeper analysis concerning Kelly on the PP. If we look from 1950 to 1959, which are the 10 seasons when Kelly was in his prime in Detroit, and check which defensemen had the best seasons in terms of powerplay points, Kelly takes a backseat to Harvey and Gadsby.

NHL Stats

Harvey and Gadsby look better here, and that hints at Kelly being only the 3rd best PPQB in his era.

From another angle, from 1953 to 1959, when all of Kelly, Harvey and Gadsby were in their prime, the summed results:

NHL Stats

Kelly and Gadsby are close, but Gadsby scores more goals.

But there's something else. His best season in PPP is by far 1955-1956. But in this thread (post #23), some gentleman claims he checked the newspapers and Kelly played LW for roughly 22-24 games on the production line in 55-56. What this means for the PP is uncertain, though maybe the info is available somewhere. Still, Kelly's PPP numbers in 55-56 are much better than any of his other seasons. However he also claims Kelly played forward for 17 games in 57-58, and his PP numbers are very weak that year, so who knows?

All of this combined is not a good look on Kelly as a PPQB, at least at first glance.
 
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TheDevilMadeMe

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1st Line - Love the look of it, I do wonder about the fit between Morenz and Jagr, they both like having the puck on their stick. Lindsay played in the shadow of dominant RW so no issues there. Morenz and Lindsay are responsible defensive players at best so the unit won't be a tremendous detriment if the puck is going the other way. Overall a well balanced unit in terms of the core attributes, just some questions regarding Morenz and Jagr.

Thanks for the review guys - I just want to address this point (probably too late for regular season voting, but whatever).

I actually see Morenz as one of the few top all-time centers who does NOT need the puck on his stick. Dink Carroll specifically wrote that Morenz was not a "playmaker" in the traditional sense, and that Joliat was the true playmaker of the line. My impression is that Morenz often drove the net with reckless abandon while Joliat was actually the one who preferred carrying the puck into the offensive zone.
 
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BenchBrawl

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Thanks for the review guys - I just want to address this point (probably too late for regular season voting, but whatever).

I actually see Morenz as one of the few top all-time centers who does NOT need the puck on his stick. Dink Carroll specifically wrote that Morenz was not a "playmaker" in the traditional sense, and that Joliat was the true playmaker of the line. My impression is that Morenz often drove the net with reckless abandon while Joliat was actually the one who preferred carrying the puck into the offensive zone.

This goes against the few tapes I've seen of Morenz, where he was clearly a top notch puck carrier. This is no doubt why he was an attraction for crowds, as he used his speed to rush up the puck.

This doesn't mean he needs the puck on his stick though. Two puck carriers can play together in my book; they'll just carry the puck as the situation calls for it.
 

BenchBrawl

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Thanks for the review guys - I just want to address this point (probably too late for regular season voting, but whatever).

I actually see Morenz as one of the few top all-time centers who does NOT need the puck on his stick. Dink Carroll specifically wrote that Morenz was not a "playmaker" in the traditional sense, and that Joliat was the true playmaker of the line. My impression is that Morenz often drove the net with reckless abandon while Joliat was actually the one who preferred carrying the puck into the offensive zone.

To support my point, even the NHL's video title for him in their Top 100 project is indicative of his style of play:



You can see him rush up the puck in this video too.
 
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TheDevilMadeMe

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This goes against the few tapes I've seen of Morenz, where he was clearly a top notch puck carrier. This is no doubt why he was an attraction for crowds, as he used his speed to rush up the puck.

This doesn't mean he needs the puck on his stick though. Two puck carriers can play together in my book; they'll just carry the puck as the situation calls for it.

Yes, but wouldn't the very limited tapes we have on Morenz focus on his most spectacular plays, in other words, when he was actually carrying the puck?

An extreme example would be how Forsberg has a lot of goals scored on his highlight tapes...

Highlight reels tend to favor individual effort goals and big hits.
 

BenchBrawl

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Yes, but wouldn't the very limited tapes we have on Morenz focus on his most spectacular plays, in other words, when he was actually carrying the puck?

An extreme example would be how Forsberg has a lot of goals scored on his highlight tapes...

Highlight reels tend to favor individual effort goals and big hits.

Probably, though it's not clear how much available footage of Morenz there was to pick from.
 

Hawkey Town 18

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@ImporterExporter

Going through the roster thread and noticed this...

"Leetch and Chelios were partners for the US national team on multiple occasions including the rare US gold medal in the 1996 World Cup of Hockey."

The regular pairings in the World Cup were Leetch - D. Hatcher and Suter - Chelios

That being said, I think Leetch - Chelios is a fine pairing chemistry wise

Also, is this enough to say D. Hatcher can play both sides? I believe he was LD in Dallas (correct me if I'm wrong), but was RD for the World Cup with Leetch on the left.
 

TheDevilMadeMe

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@ImporterExporter

Going through the roster thread and noticed this...

"Leetch and Chelios were partners for the US national team on multiple occasions including the rare US gold medal in the 1996 World Cup of Hockey."

The regular pairings in the World Cup were Leetch - D. Hatcher and Suter - Chelios

That being said, I think Leetch - Chelios is a fine pairing chemistry wise

Also, is this enough to say D. Hatcher can play both sides? I believe he was LD in Dallas (correct me if I'm wrong), but was RD for the World Cup with Leetch on the left.

1996 is a long time ago, so my memory is fuzzy.

I have seen conflicting reports about this. I do recall a few years ago reading something that "Canada couldn't match the US's top pairing of Leetch-Chelios " in a retrospective of the 1996 World Cup, but then the media does get confused about such things.
 

Hawkey Town 18

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1996 is a long time ago, so my memory is fuzzy.

I have seen conflicting reports about this. I do recall a few years ago reading something that "Canada couldn't match the US's top pairing of Leetch-Chelios " in a retrospective of the 1996 World Cup, but then the media does get confused about such things.

Yeah I could see the media using the word pairing for best 2 Dmen on the team instead of 2 that actually play together.

I see they’re watching Game 3 on the HOH board. Someone there should be able to tell us.
 

Hawkey Town 18

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A couple more things to add...

Chelios and Suter were partners in Chicago at this point

They may have been partners in the 91 CC...I have memories of Chelios being in the frame either during or shortly before/after the infamous Suter hit on Gretzky
 

VanIslander

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Niedermayer-Odelein was one of the worst international pairings ever. Look at the two goals they gave up. The hesitant play (Uh, you got it? Me?). They had zero chemistry. They subbed Foote to no avail.
 

TheDevilMadeMe

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Niedermayer-Odelein was one of the worst international pairings ever. Look at the two goals they gave up. The hesitant play (Uh, you got it? Me?). They had zero chemistry. They subbed Foote to no avail.

The fact that Lyle Slowdelien actually represented Canada in a best-on-best tournament still confuses me to this day.
 

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