thanks for the assassination, bb.
1st line: I tried playing Bergeron on the wing in the last ATD, reuniting the Marchand-Crosby-Bergeron line, and got burned for it. I'm more tolerant to such moves especially when IRL chemistry is the goal, but it's risky business. As it is I think this line is a bit ackward. Is Bathgate a sniper? I always saw him as a playmaker, but TDMM brought up a good point to me that his assist numbers might be because he played the point on the PP. As of now, I don't see Bathgate as a Bossy-like player, but am opened to be proven wrong. With Trottier, I'd have preferred a Bossy-like player. It's also unclear how much you really needed Bergeron at all on this team.
i guess i don't really know about atd conventions about how value is weighted and dinged for guys out of position. it was explained to me last time, but i guess i still don't totally get it?
my thinking with bergeron is i wanted trottier's line to have what crosby's international line has. maybe trottier doesn't need it, and maybe it's a waste of bergeron's talents as one of the greatest defensive centers ever to make him a glorified ondrej palat, but him in that role doesn't actually hurt the first line does it? in the sense that having patrice bergeron there out of position (but one we know for a fact he can excel in) isn't really worse than having, say, alex delvecchio there is it? (i mean defensively; delvecchio is the better offensive player, but then with two hart/ross guys on the line, i don't think we need the extra offence.)
and at the same time, is bergeron more wasted playing top line minutes out of position, or ten ES minutes a game on my shutdown fourth line?
as for bathgate, he has years where his ES goals and assists were basically even (58, 59, 63) and years where it was more of a 40/60 split. i think given how highly everyone raved about his shot, and his excellent prime goal scoring record of 3, 4, 5, 6, 6, 8, 9 (in seven consecutive seasons against competition of rocket, howe, beliveau, geoffrion, hull, mahovlich), i don't see why bathgate couldn't have been a shoot-first guy if he'd had a trottier to his bossy. did he take on a greater playmaking role than he otherwise would have because there was nobody else on the rangers to do it? by the same token, is trottier without bossy slanted more to goal scoring, a la beliveau? i also like bathgate's reputation for being assertive with the body despite a pacifist and more of a dipsy-doodler, and not being shy about taking it to the net. like bossy, i think he can find the puck in traffic.
but even just taking bathgate's ES game at face value, that's an excellent dual goal scoring/playmaking threat who can skate beautifully and handles the puck at an elite level should work just great with trottier, a fellow A list scorer with a diverse skillset. and just like in real life, bathgate has two ridiculously good defensive linemates to carry him on that side of the puck.
2nd line: Great line offensively and defensively, but unless I'm misreading Firsov, it does seem on the soft side. Was Firsov physical? Yzerman can score goals and capitalize on Kucherov's playmaking, but I'd have preferred a Shanahan-like LWer to complement them. Is Firsov that guy? How do you see this line?
i don't think firsov was especially physical. and no this line doesn't have anyone who will go out of his way to throw his weight around, but i see this line more of just three offensive geniuses who can each playmake and score goals making beautiful soviet-style music together. i think with all those years of yzerman going out of his way to pick larionov's brain, he could be as good a fit as anyone with the east-west, drop passing, puck possession game. i feel like even in an ATD context this would be a really hard line to take the puck away from. i also think shero, as a tarasov acolyte, would love this line.
3rd line: With Trottier-Yzerman in the Top 6, you could afford a more risky 3rd line center, and Nels Stewart is that guy. Anderson and Tocchet are great "banging" wingers wh ocan crash the net and play a gritty game, and Stewart is great around the net, but I question the defense of that line a little bit. Stewart used to play with Hooley Smith who was an all-time great defensive player. Anyone they should be tough to play against, especially for small-ish defensive pairings.
you hit the nail on the head. this is the line i'm sending out there to rattle cages. they're definitely not a shutdown-type third line, and in fact if i want someone out there to stop an opposing line, this line is my fourth choice out of four. but if i'm getting dominated defensively, this is who i send out there to cause some mayhem. run their goalie, press their d's face against the glass, maybe stewart spears someone in the nuts.
4th line: Great classic 4th line.
i am pretty proud of this one. also, two conn smythe winners and a third guy who has finished 1st and 2nd in playoff goals.
1st pairing: You have a 1A/1B type of arrangement between your 1st and 2nd pairing, with the level being close. I think your 2nd pairing is a bit better. Anyway your 1st pairing is original but can work. Boucher was a master stickhandler, one of the greatest ever at this, but he also had a physical/pesty game as well as being solid defensively. Pronger had a classic first-pass. Boucher proved he could play with any type of defenseman, as he excelled wit hGerard, Hitchman, Clancy and sometimes Cleghorn, and Pronger is a bit Cleghorn-like.
2nd pairing: More standard in form, D-O complementarity (though Pilote was also good defensively), it's a real solid 2nd pairing (arguably your 1st). Basically I see Pilote and Pronger as borderline #1D types in this draft, and Langway a #2,; Boucher a #3.
3rd pairing: Harry Cameron is a favorite of mine, and I still wish to research him more in depth. He could be severely underrated. A Coffey-like offensive force from the blueline, with the playoff success to match. Ramsay is good as a defensive anchor to support him.
my thinking was each pair has a guy who can skate the puck up the ice all by himself if need be. i'm not married to the first pair being the first pair and the second being the second, actually the order is still just leftover from me putting pronger there because i drafted him first. but i do want to stick to those pairings.
ramsey was the toughest pick i made. i was really between him and ulf samuelsson and ultimately went with ramsey because i think he's just plain better defensively. i kind of wanted ulf as another guy to make the opposition think, but i think between boucher, pronger, and pilote, there was enough hit to hurt on this blueline.
i'm intrigued by cameron too. i imagine him as a bigger (for era) and more physical erik karlsson.
Goalies: Roy is the greatest of all-time. Giguère is OK nothing more, would have preferred a more steady regular season goalie maybe, but who cares. You have Roy so you always have the best goalie.
i was between giguère and kiprusoff. went with giguere ultimately because if i lost roy to injury my team has the defensive ability to go full babcock and this is a guy who can get locked in and put up four shutouts in six games or sweep detroit and dallas back-to-back under full babcock. i'd also note that my roster is not so different in structure to the 2007 ducks, which giggy won his cup with.
PP: Sad not to see Trottier on the 1st unit, I'd put him there over Kucherov 10 times out of 10, though I understand you want to avoid putting your Top 3 centers on the same unit. I wonder who is the best PPQB between Pilote and Harry Cameron. Bathgate is fine there. The 2nd unit has Trottier and Cameron, which is great, but not a fan of Pavelski and Anderson in there; but then again, you might not have anything better.
i had to put yzerman on the first unit and trottier on the second for handedness. i really wanted that second RHS on that first unit and was wary of having four RHS on the second unit (firsov, cameron, pavelski, yzerman). same reason i chose pilote over cameron, to have a LHS and a RHS on the point.
on the second unit, the other configuration i was thinking was
firsov trottier pavelski
pronger cameron
which i still might go to. that gives me a LHS and RHS on the point, and frees up firsov to direct traffic from the half boards. pavelski i like a lot in this role, he has really quietly been an elite slot guy. he was second in PP goals (to ovechkin) in back-to-back years, but if you look at his hockey-ref the numbers themselves don't look like much because crosby's 104 points was the only performance that topped 87 points in those two years.
i agree anderson does feel like a weak link, even if he proved he could do the job on that unit with gretzky, kurri, messier, and coffey.
another thought is moving cameron up to the first unit, but in bathgate's place. both guys had game changing slapshots. but bathgate afaict was fantastic on the PP. and i like the idea of him on an elite unit. the one year he was in detroit, he led the cup finalist red wings in playoff goals, all on the PP. must have been nice having howe, ullman, and delvecchio out there with him.
PK: I might try to put Trottier in there somewhere, maybe on the 2nd unit, because with him being only on the 2nd PP unit, i feel he is underused as your #1 center. Your 1st unit is very strong, especially considering Roy in net too.
i think you're right here. why not
trottier bergeron
langway pronger
goring anderson
ramsey pilote?
yzerman, boucher, and firsov as guys that can rotate in when needed. i think i remember
@TheDevilMadeMe telling me once that claude lemieux killed fewer penalties in nj than one would think.
reluctant to break up goring and anderson as a PK duo. that's like bure-russ courtnall-level terrifying speed only also abrasive af. they'd be tough on the calmest coolest of QBs.
