Opinions on Phil Esposito?

[Black Gold Extractor]

Hello! I have come from the History of Hockey boards and would like to learn about what Bruins fans who watched Phil Esposito live think about him, because seriously who else would I ask?

Everyone knows who "the guy" was for the Bruins in the early-70's, but is Esposito just a result of Orr and the offensive style the Bruins played (which was also in part because of Orr)?

Arguments for Esposito:

1) I doubt that Esposito on his own would be a 5-time Art Ross winner, but this post by Sprague Cleghorn shows what Esposito's point totals would be without a single shared point with Orr. Assuming that it's a Orr decided to choose another profession/didn't exist scenario, Esposito would have had enough points to win two Art Ross trophies (70-71, 73-74) without a single shared point with Orr. In 68-69, Orr's hypothetical replacement would only need to "boost" Esposito by 4 more points (from 104 to 108) to win the Art Ross.

A likely 3-time Art Ross winner in any era would be considered pretty good. How many players have more than 3 Art Ross wins, ever? Only six, including real-life Esposito.

2) The media and players at the time also seemed to respect Esposito (as a player, at least). From 69-70 through to 74-75, Esposito had two Hart wins, was twice the Hart runner-up, and had two Pearson/Lindsay wins. His toughest competitors were Orr and Bobby Clarke. That's pretty tough, and he occasionally came up on top. Awards voting seems to be a decent way to start to determine how people at the time thought about said players.

Arguments against Esposito:

1) The eye test appears to be the sticking point for a lot of people. Esposito usually parked in front of the net, so he didn't really play a style that people associate with superstar players, perhaps?

2) Bobby Orr's effect on the Bruins on the ice went beyond mere shared points. Without any possession stats, I'm going to assume that it's safe to say that he tilted the ice dramatically in favor of the Bruins, thus giving his linemates more time to try and generate scoring chances. Unfortunately, without possession stats, it's hard to quantify this. This allows some posters to ignore it or argue entirely for it.

Why I care:

1) Curiosity. Raw offensive numbers and measures of dominance over peers (i.e. 1st place vs runner-up in scoring/Vs2, VsX, and the like) seem to show that Esposito was an offensive dynamo in some vague tier between Jagr and Gretzky, but he's either underrated/overrated depending on who you ask on the History of Hockey boards.

2) Plus, someone did point out (correctly) that I'm a youngster who hasn't seen Esposito play day-in day-out, and it seemed prudent to get more opinions before I continued with a discussion that was largely numbers-based on my part.

Click to read more...

 

[BigGoalBrad]

Size+skill to go along with having a Mark Recchi like stick in front of the net and a specific talent for scoring those ugly/rebound type goals. He was on an excellent team and thus the stats were impressive.

Very very long career as well.

Pretty tough to call him overrated. Not sure why someone would hold parking in front of the net instead of playing the point on the PP for example against him. You can absolutely say that his peak unbelievable seasons had something to do with the team he was on in the same way that Gretzky's numbers had something to do with being on the 80s Oilers but I wouldn't call him overrated.

Too young never saw him play but we have a lot of really good old school posters on here who did and should chime in. The Bruins 'won' the Park-Espo trade yet still lots of fans think it was a big mistake b/c Espo was that legendary of a Bruin.

 

[Fenway]

Espo's biggest skill was getting in the slot and staying there.

Orr had the uncanny ability of firing from the slot and finding his stick.

 

[Gordoff]

The thing is that he didn't just park in front of the net all the time. He was more mobile than people will have you believe, he controlled the pace of the game and took control of the puck like no other.
His stick blade was different in that the forward shot curvature was within the first 2-2.5" of the blade tip, the rest of the blade was pretty flat (for backhand shots) IIRC.
He would get the puck in that snub pocket in the front of the blade and IMO he'd
On occasion he would shoot right if he was being heavily covered on his left (using the flat section of the blade nearest the heal.
He was a premier PP specialist AND a PC force when a face-off would take place in the offensive zone.
He was a total pro and many times (such as the series against the Soviets) basically said "climb aboard boys, we're going to win this."
It's really too bad that he couldn't have stayed with the Bruins but IMO part of the reason that he was dealt was because he didn't take kindly to coach's instructions. A very talented superstar...

 

[hutch22]

Espo was a very talented goal scorer on a power house offensive team. He also had 2 big unselfish line mates in Wayne Cashman & Ken Hodge. When you can do it year after year, I wouldn't call it a fluke. The numbers speak for themselves. He scored 42 goals for the NY Rangers at age 36 and 34 the following year without Orr, Cashman, or Hodge.

 

[disfigured]

One story about those days I remember Espo telling was that when you got into a scrum and John D'Amico grabbed you to pull you away, it would hurt. That's how tough D'Amico was.

My other memory was when he fell on the ice during the introductions of a Summit game (found the video). A piece of flower from one of the presenters got under his blade, Espo took it all in stride (no pun intended).

Fast Forward to 1:40ish or click this link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=E_-7q2bytrw#t=106

 

[Replicator]

Esposito was an offensive dynamo in some vague tier between Jagr and Gretzky.

That's probably a fair statement. I was seriously bummed when Jagr caught up to Espo on the all-time goals-scored list, since I felt that Espo was much better than Jagr, and Jagr was there due to his longevity.
Espo was not just a product of Orr. I recall him moving the puck a lot better than your eyetest note would suggest. He did have great chemistry with Orr, and they had a nice give-and-go attack. (The same could be said of Derek Sanderson, but Sanderson didn't stand up anywhere nearly as well on his own.)

Esposito sometimes gets left behind by Boston fans because he was overshadowed by Orr, and the more recent Bourque, plus the fact that Espo only had part of his career in Boston.

 

[Number8]

HHOF player.
Just shy of 1,600 NHL Points.
2 time Stanley Cup winner.
PPG+ throughout his regular season career.
PPG+ throughout his playoff career.
PPG+ Canada Cup career.
PPG+ Summit Series career.
5 time Ross winner.
2 time Hart winner.
2 time Pearson winner (most outstanding player voted by players)
717 career goals.
873 career assists.
Summit Series stud.
etc.,
etc.,

Only five players have scored more NHL goals: Gretzky, Howe, Jagr, Hull, and Dionne.

Only nine players have more NHL assists.

Only eight players have more NHL points.

I saw him play dozens of games and there is no analysis on the planet that can justify calling him over-rated. He was quite simply one of the best players to ever play the game with or without Bobby Orr.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

The thing is that he didn't just park in front of the net all the time. He was more mobile than people will have you believe, he controlled the pace of the game and took control of the puck like no other.
His stick blade was different in that the forward shot curvature was within the first 2-2.5" of the blade tip, the rest of the blade was pretty flat (for backhand shots) IIRC.
He would get the puck in that snub pocket in the front of the blade and IMO he'd
On occasion he would shoot right if he was being heavily covered on his left (using the flat section of the blade nearest the heal.
He was a premier PP specialist AND a PC force when a face-off would take place in the offensive zone.
He was a total pro and many times (such as the series against the Soviets) basically said "climb aboard boys, we're going to win this."
It's really too bad that he couldn't have stayed with the Bruins but IMO part of the reason that he was dealt was because he didn't take kindly to coach's instructions. A very talented superstar...

Thank you for that.

Usually set up in the high slot, not in front.

 

[GordonHowe]

One story about those days I remember Espo telling was that when you got into a scrum and John D'Amico grabbed you to pull you away, it would hurt. That's how tough D'Amico was.

My other memory was when he fell on the ice during the introductions of a Summit game (found the video). A piece of flower from one of the presenters got under his blade, Espo took it all in stride (no pun intended).

Fast Forward to 1:40ish or click this link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=E_-7q2bytrw#t=106

I never met the man but what I can say is this: Phil is Phil. Perfect? No. A tremendous competitor who spoke (and speaks) his mind,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bFKvB3Wnzgk

This is the guy who scored *76 goals* & had *76 assists* for 152 points in *1971,* which is effing crazy. Twenty goals back then was a big deal. Like Orr in his own very different way, he was unreal, and all he cared about was winning.

Finally, this is also the guy who is, in large part, responsible for the Tampa Bay Lightning's existence.

I'll always be a huge fan.

 

[Ratty]

I suggest you read "Thunder and Lightening" the account of the Espo years authored by Phil, assisted by Peter Golenbuck. Good insight into Phil's playing years as well as a post career executive. I enjoyed it and I'm sure you'll get a lot of info from reading it.

 

[BNHL]

The second greatest Bruin of my lifetime,blew the doors off the hockey world when his prolific scoring kicked into gear. Could rag a puck,hack an opponent and win you a game. Loved by his teammates and the fans and he loved playing here as much or more than any other player. A true Bruin with immense influence on a game, second only to Orr,whose influence was just as great in April and May.

 

[rfournier103]

I think he's the second-greatest Bruin of all time.

As great as Orr was; with no Espo - there are no Stanley Cup championships in '70 and '72.

 

[pgm16]

He dominated games in the offensive zone !!! The saving grace of his trade was Park coming back to us.

 

[GoBs]

Always liked Espo. But remember he made his two wingers Cashman and Hodge that much better, checkout their stats. Orr is one of the only players in my opinion who could play in today's game because of his superior skating ability.

 

[BigGoalBrad]

Always liked Espo. But remember he made his two wingers Cashman and Hodge that much better, checkout their stats. Orr is one of the only players in my opinion who could play in today's game because of his superior skating ability.

Dunno I think all those guys would have benefited from the superior equipment and conditioning and been better skaters automatically if they were in the modern game.


The original 6 was extremely hard to break into look at Orrs D partner Dallas Smith who was renowned as one of the best defensive dmen of that era. Played 70 games for the Bruins as a teenager in 61...and then spent 7 years in the minor leagues before reemerging in 68 only playing 3-4 games total inbetween. No way that happens today with there being 30 teams. (The only valid argument one could begin to make against Espo's greatness and unbelievable stats was that expansion had just finally happened significantly diluting the talent pool.)

 

[Black Gold Extractor]

Dunno I think all those guys would have benefited from the superior equipment and conditioning and been better skaters automatically if they were in the modern game.


The original 6 was extremely hard to break into look at Orrs D partner Dallas Smith who was renowned as one of the best defensive dmen of that era. Played 70 games for the Bruins as a teenager in 61...and then spent 7 years in the minor leagues before reemerging in 68 only playing 3-4 games total inbetween. No way that happens today with there being 30 teams. (The only valid argument one could begin to make against Espo's greatness and unbelievable stats was that expansion had just finally happened significantly diluting the talent pool.)

In fairness, the Bruins weren't the only non-expansion team during the early-70's. Esposito placed well ahead of most of his peers offensively. (Really, only Orr could be placed higher due to his position.)

It's not the end-all or be-all, but VsX benchmarks (which evaluate a player's scoring relative to a "typical 2nd place forward" in the current version) place Esposito pretty high up.

Here's a snippet, the top 15 as of this past regular season for the best seven seasons of each player's career:

Ranks|Player|VsX
1 | Wayne Gretzky | 155.6
2 | Phil Esposito | 130.4
3 | Gordie Howe | 125.5
4 | Mario Lemieux | 119.8
5 | Bobby Orr | 114.8
6 | Jaromir Jagr | 114.2
7 | Bobby Hull | 108.3
8 | Stan Mikita | 107.8
9 | Jean Beliveau | 105.7
10 | Guy Lafleur | 104.5
11 | Ted Lindsay | 104.4
12 | Marcel Dionne | 103.3
13 | Maurice Richard | 102.4
14 | Howie Morenz | 102.2
15 | Sidney Crosby | 101.8

A couple of things to note:

1) Injuries are not compensated for (i.e. this is a measure of points, not points-per-game).

2) The "typical 2nd place forward" is awarded a 100 VsX rating each season.

3) If anyone is wondering why Esposito is rated higher than Orr, it's because it's relative to the typical 2nd highest-scoring forward. Relative to the 2nd highest-scoring defenseman, Orr would be rated 200+ (i.e. more than doubled the next highest-scoring D-man)...

Like I said, numerically, it looks like Esposito the Bruin was insanely good at scoring.

He somehow doesn't pass the eye test for some posters on History of Hockey, though, due to his style/lack of skating. Unfathomable hands, average skater? Is that a fair assessment of Esposito?

Also, thanks to everyone for chiming in. It's appreciated!

 

[BigGoalBrad]

In fairness, the Bruins weren't the only non-expansion team during the early-70's. Esposito placed well ahead of most of his peers offensively. (Really, only Orr could be placed higher due to his position.)

It's not the end-all or be-all, but VsX benchmarks (which evaluate a player's scoring relative to a "typical 2nd place forward" in the current version) place Esposito pretty high up.

Here's a snippet, the top 15 as of this past regular season for the best seven seasons of each player's career:

Ranks|Player|VsX
1 | Wayne Gretzky | 155.6
2 | Phil Esposito | 130.4
3 | Gordie Howe | 125.5
4 | Mario Lemieux | 119.8
5 | Bobby Orr | 114.8
6 | Jaromir Jagr | 114.2
7 | Bobby Hull | 108.3
8 | Stan Mikita | 107.8
9 | Jean Beliveau | 105.7
10 | Guy Lafleur | 104.5
11 | Ted Lindsay | 104.4
12 | Marcel Dionne | 103.3
13 | Maurice Richard | 102.4
14 | Howie Morenz | 102.2
15 | Sidney Crosby | 101.8

A couple of things to note:

1) Injuries are not compensated for (i.e. this is a measure of points, not points-per-game).

2) The "typical 2nd place forward" is awarded a 100 VsX rating each season.

3) If anyone is wondering why Esposito is rated higher than Orr, it's because it's relative to the typical 2nd highest-scoring forward. Relative to the 2nd highest-scoring defenseman, Orr would be rated 200+ (i.e. more than doubled the next highest-scoring D-man)...

Like I said, numerically, it looks like Esposito the Bruin was insanely good at scoring.

He somehow doesn't pass the eye test for some posters on History of Hockey, though, due to his style/lack of skating. Unfathomable hands, average skater? Is that a fair assessment of Esposito?

Also, thanks to everyone for chiming in. It's appreciated!

I like this thread because I made the mistake of not having him well ahead of Clapper and Neely in the all time Bruins list I made a week or so ago and I was definitely wrong he belongs with Shore, Orr, and Bourque and then its everyone else.

Average speed does not mean average skater.


Shame he didn't drop his grudge against the Bruins after #7 was retired and Bourque switched to 77 but he had his own teams to worry about since he stepped into the Rangers GM job when he retired and built Tampa.

1969- Espo 126 Orr 64 points. Orr would win his second Norris and had won the prior year at age 19 despite missing 30 games so was already amazing and likely the better of the two. Espo doubled his point total.

70-72 Bruins are the most dominant team in NHL and likely pro sports history and its hardly a stretch. 73 they couldn't get out of the 1st round of the playoffs without him.


Expansion era doesn't take anything away from Espo but you would have to give Hull and Richard some credit for playing in the Original 6 if you compared them to him as it makes their stats look a little better.

 

[BNHL]

I like this thread because I made the mistake of not having him well ahead of Clapper and Neely in the all time Bruins list I made a week or so ago and I was definitely wrong he belongs with Shore, Orr, and Bourque and then its everyone else.

Average speed does not mean average skater.


Shame he didn't drop his grudge against the Bruins after #7 was retired and Bourque switched to 77 but he had his own teams to worry about since he stepped into the Rangers GM job when he retired and built Tampa.

1969- Espo 126 Orr 64 points. Orr would win his second Norris and had won the prior year at age 19 despite missing 30 games so was already amazing and likely the better of the two. Espo doubled his point total.

70-72 Bruins are the most dominant team in NHL and likely pro sports history and its hardly a stretch. 73 they couldn't get out of the 1st round of the playoffs without him.


Expansion era doesn't take anything away from Espo but you would have to give Hull and Richard some credit for playing in the Original 6 if you compared them to him as it makes their stats look a little better.

Glad you said this,he was a slower but strong skater. That's the criticism? If he was faster would he have scored 100? Scoring talent with no peers for several years who also played both ways.

 

[nmbr_24]

He was a goal scoring monster who really had no peers for years. Maybe Orr helped him attain that level but he was no slouch and Orr did not make him. He would have scored 50 with or without Orr in my opinion.

 

[GoBs]

Dunno I think all those guys would have benefited from the superior equipment and conditioning and been better skaters automatically if they were in the modern game.


The original 6 was extremely hard to break into look at Orrs D partner Dallas Smith who was renowned as one of the best defensive dmen of that era. Played 70 games for the Bruins as a teenager in 61...and then spent 7 years in the minor leagues before reemerging in 68 only playing 3-4 games total inbetween. No way that happens today with there being 30 teams. (The only valid argument one could begin to make against Espo's greatness and unbelievable stats was that expansion had just finally happened significantly diluting the talent pool.)

You have a good point there.