Ontario Reign 20-21 Part III

[tomd]

Yes, and my response isn't at Herby's critiques of Turcotte, it's at the idea that "rob blake is a f***ing idiot" for Turcotte over Cozens at this point. It's a meta discussion of hyperbole, over-criticism of home prospects, and inability to see the 'real' production of other prospects, while making sweeping proclamations about the entire futures careers of 19 year olds.

Not sure Herby was pushing that narrative but I know someone else was. Turcotte was not a reach at #5 by any stretch so faulting the Kings is a little unfair. I'm surprised there isn't more angst on the Vilardi versus Necas front. Such is life in a rebuild...

 

[LAKings88]

Not sure Herby was pushing that narrative but I know someone else was. Turcotte was not a reach at #5 by any stretch so faulting the Kings is a little unfair. I'm surprised there isn't more angst on the Vilardi versus Necas front. Such is life in a rebuild...

I thought Necas would be a King. I still think Vilardi will figure it out. I just don’t think he has found the right line mates.

 

[SFKingshomer]

Vilardi needs to be in Ontario building his confidence or next to Kopitar and Iaffalo.

 

[tomd]

Vilardi skates in cement...that needs to change before anything else matters.

 

[funky]

Vilardi skates in cement...that needs to change before anything else matters.

do you think having another summer to get stronger and work on skating will help. He has missed so much time I wonder if a stronger core and legs would improve his skating?

 

[tomd]

do you think having another summer to get stronger and work on skating will help. He has missed so much time I wonder if a stronger core and legs would improve his skating?

It might. He just looks to me like he has very heavy feet...I don't know how fixable that is.

 

[Statto]

Vilardi needs to be in Ontario building his confidence or next to Kopitar and Iaffalo.

Vilardi is no longer eligible to go down to Ontario, players on the NHL roster at the cutoff date cannot go back down. Only Clague on the current roster can go back to Ontario. Anyone using one of the three remaining recall slots can also go back down to the Reign and play.

I agree though, Vilardi would have benefited from a few games down there but now they need to make him play through it and figure it out. Given where the season is at I’d make him 2c and give him the responsibility to go with it, make him drive his line with speed on the wing (Kempe & AA) or with Brown there as a vet presence.

 

[Statto]

do you think having another summer to get stronger and work on skating will help. He has missed so much time I wonder if a stronger core and legs would improve his skating?

I think a season just being fit will allow him to have a much more productive off season. He’s stronger than he was a year ago and I agree foot speed and agility is something he needs to work on. It is never going to be his strength but there is opportunity to improve there. With the right wingers, he can be a decent centre but if he can’t sort his feet out I think he could be a very effective winger. Vilardi will be a great piece for us, it’s just about what position he ends up in IMO.

 

[MBH]

Vilardi skates in cement...that needs to change before anything else matters.

He doesn't skate much worse than Kopitar and isn't any worse than Brown.

 

[Ghetty Green]

He doesn't skate much worse than Kopitar and isn't any worse than Brown.

What have you been watching ?

 

[MBH]

What have you been watching ?

Kings games

 

[redcard]

This season's a grind, Vilardi's played 40 games in the last 3 months. He played a combined 94 games in the 3 years after he was drafted.

 

[Statto]

This season's a grind, Vilardi's played 40 games in the last 3 months. He played a combined 94 games in the 3 years after he was drafted.

Which is why I don’t understand some views on his progress. This shouldn’t be a surprise to anyone in any way. I was looking for a better reaction to getting sat but it just shows the grind of things has affected his confidence. From a playing standpoint he won’t have dealt with this before so it will take him time to figure it out. People forget that this is his rookie season and instead focus on his age and draft class as a whole when it just isn’t appropriate.

 

[Vino]

We get it, you hate Turcotte, you've been consistently banging that drum for years--but this is also a bit completely premature and completely lacking perspective.

No, I don't hate Turcotte at all. I think IF everything goes really well, he will be a pretty good NHLer (IF he stays healthy and can improve his shooting). In my mind his upside is something like Chris Drury, who was a big reason why Colorado Avalanche won their second Stanley Cup (Forsberg was injured against Kings and Drudy replaced him). A clutch performer.

But I think Cozens upside is Trevor Linden or even Jeff Carter and if I have to choose between Drury, Linden, Carter I would rather have Linden or Carter than Drury.

Kings biggest need (offence) is right shooting forward, who has top 6 potential. A player, who can eventually replace veterans like Dustin Brown (1st line RW) or Jeff Carter (2nd line C). So in my mind Turcotte was not BPA, but Cozens filled all boxes (right shot, offensive upside, big player, durable, hard worker, on and off the ice leader, fast skater). I have watched some Buffalo's games and Cozens has been better I expected (smarter passer than I thought). A really intriguing prospect. BUT was must underline it was not Turcotte's fault at all, that he was 5th overall pick, it was GM Blake's fault.

I don't hate Blake (hate is so strong word), I just think that he is not a good GM. Actually I think he is a well, well below average GM. Why so? Because his draftphilsophy/tendency/visio stinks.

He was named Kings GM 2017-04-10. After that Kings have drafted 5 goalies (Villalta, Ingham, Hrenak, Parik, Markkanen). It will take at least three years to see, if goaltender has potential, so it hard to say how good this group is. Highest pick (#72) is Matt Villalta and he's has been unimpressive (actually a really erratic) in Ontario. Ingham has played mostly in the ECHL and his numbers are not good.

Between 2017-2020 Kings have drafted 10 defencemen (Mikey Anderson, Markus Philipps, Cole Hults, Tobias Björnfot, Jordan Spence, Kim Nousiainen, Braden Doyle, Helge Grans, Brock Faber, Ben Meehan). One player (Grans) is 6'3", one player (Faber) is 6'1", Anderson, Philipps, Hults, Björnfot, Meehan are generously listed 6'0", Doyle is 5'11", Nousiainen and Spence are between 5'10" - 5'9". You just can't build a good defence around draftees, whose average size is mostly below NHL's average (6'1", 200 lbs).

What about forwards? Blake and his employees (Kings amateur scouting staff) have not drafted a single player, who does have a mean streak. First, second and third round guys are all very much same mold (skill). Vilardi, JAD, Kupari, Thomas, Shafigullin, Turcotte, Kaliyev, Fagemo, Byfield, (Lias Andersson), Simontaival, Laferriere.

Byfield is big and will be a huge, fast and strong when he is finally ready. Kaliyev is starting to realize, that he is a big boy. He never will be a "power forward", but he will be a player, who can and will use his sizeadvantage effectively. Vilardi is 6'3", but he doesn't play physical play at all (injuryhistory surely affects). That threesome - size yes, but mean streak? No, I haven't seen any of these guys play mean/dirty.

Other forward draftees (4th - 7th rounders, a bunch of longshots; Rymsha, Dudas, Södergran, Lee, Chromiak, Jämsen) - if one of them plays a single game in the NHL, it will be a huge suprise.

There is no diversity among draftees (no toughness, no bodycheckers, no "criminals") and that is an awful mistake. And because Kings don't draft any toughness, they have to sign UFAs (like Kurtis MacDermid - who should not play in the NHL at all) or trade them (like B. Lemiuex, who doesn't impress me much - borderline NHLer). I hope that this summer Blake&co drafts more size, more grit/toughness and more Canadian players, especially WHLers. I don't belive it, but one can always hope for it.


And sorry my English, I hope you understand what I'm trying to say.

 

[Mats26]

No, I don't hate Turcotte at all. I think IF everything goes really well, he will be a pretty good NHLer (IF he stays healthy and can improve his shooting). In my mind his upside is something like Chris Drury, who was a big reason why Colorado Avalanche won their second Stanley Cup (Forsberg was injured against Kings and Drudy replaced him). A clutch performer.

But I think Cozens upside is Trevor Linden or even Jeff Carter and if I have to choose between Drury, Linden, Carter I would rather have Linden or Carter than Drury.

Kings biggest need (offence) is right shooting forward, who has top 6 potential. A player, who can eventually replace veterans like Dustin Brown (1st line RW) or Jeff Carter (2nd line C). So in my mind Turcotte was not BPA, but Cozens filled all boxes (right shot, offensive upside, big player, durable, hard worker, on and off the ice leader, fast skater). I have watched some Buffalo's games and Cozens has been better I expected (smarter passer than I thought). A really intriguing prospect. BUT was must underline it was not Turcotte's fault at all, that he was 5th overall pick, it was GM Blake's fault.

I don't hate Blake (hate is so strong word), I just think that he is not a good GM. Actually I think he is a well, well below average GM. Why so? Because his draftphilsophy/tendency/visio stinks.

He was named Kings GM 2017-04-10. After that Kings have drafted 5 goalies (Villalta, Ingham, Hrenak, Parik, Markkanen). It will take at least three years to see, if goaltender has potential, so it hard to say how good this group is. Highest pick (#72) is Matt Villalta and he's has been unimpressive (actually a really erratic) in Ontario. Ingham has played mostly in the ECHL and his numbers are not good.

Between 2017-2020 Kings have drafted 10 defencemen (Mikey Anderson, Markus Philipps, Cole Hults, Tobias Björnfot, Jordan Spence, Kim Nousiainen, Braden Doyle, Helge Grans, Brock Faber, Ben Meehan). One player (Grans) is 6'3", one player (Faber) is 6'1", Anderson, Philipps, Hults, Björnfot, Meehan are generously listed 6'0", Doyle is 5'11", Nousiainen and Spence are between 5'10" - 5'9". You just can't build a good defence around draftees, whose average size is mostly below NHL's average (6'1", 200 lbs).

What about forwards? Blake and his employees (Kings amateur scouting staff) have not drafted a single player, who does have a mean streak. First, second and third round guys are all very much same mold (skill). Vilardi, JAD, Kupari, Thomas, Shafigullin, Turcotte, Kaliyev, Fagemo, Byfield, (Lias Andersson), Simontaival, Laferriere.

Byfield is big and will be a huge, fast and strong when he is finally ready. Kaliyev is starting to realize, that he is a big boy. He never will be a "power forward", but he will be a player, who can and will use his sizeadvantage effectively. Vilardi is 6'3", but he doesn't play physical play at all (injuryhistory surely affects). That threesome - size yes, but mean streak? No, I haven't seen any of these guys play mean/dirty.

Other forward draftees (4th - 7th rounders, a bunch of longshots; Rymsha, Dudas, Södergran, Lee, Chromiak, Jämsen) - if one of them plays a single game in the NHL, it will be a huge suprise.

There is no diversity among draftees (no toughness, no bodycheckers, no "criminals") and that is an awful mistake. And because Kings don't draft any toughness, they have to sign UFAs (like Kurtis MacDermid - who should not play in the NHL at all) or trade them (like B. Lemiuex, who doesn't impress me much - borderline NHLer). I hope that this summer Blake&co drafts more size, more grit/toughness and more Canadian players, especially WHLers. I don't belive it, but one can always hope for it.


And sorry my English, I hope you understand what I'm trying to say.

100% agree with you. I said in an earlier post that this draft's plan should be to get our D man and draft skill+size. We are way to soft in the pipeline. I also think we'll have to add more size on the roster this off season.

 

[HookKing]

So we should draft for need and not BPA? Just asking.

 

[funky]

So we should draft for need and not BPA? Just asking.

good point. I still believe BPA

 

[Mats26]

So we should draft for need and not BPA? Just asking.

Ask Detroit. Guess you will pass on Seider at 6?

BTW there is no BPA. Yanetti has tiers in his groups and any player that is in that tier can be selected. All I am saying is get the most skilled guys with size in that tier.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

No, I don't hate Turcotte at all. I think IF everything goes really well, he will be a pretty good NHLer (IF he stays healthy and can improve his shooting). In my mind his upside is something like Chris Drury, who was a big reason why Colorado Avalanche won their second Stanley Cup (Forsberg was injured against Kings and Drudy replaced him). A clutch performer.

But I think Cozens upside is Trevor Linden or even Jeff Carter and if I have to choose between Drury, Linden, Carter I would rather have Linden or Carter than Drury.

Kings biggest need (offence) is right shooting forward, who has top 6 potential. A player, who can eventually replace veterans like Dustin Brown (1st line RW) or Jeff Carter (2nd line C). So in my mind Turcotte was not BPA, but Cozens filled all boxes (right shot, offensive upside, big player, durable, hard worker, on and off the ice leader, fast skater). I have watched some Buffalo's games and Cozens has been better I expected (smarter passer than I thought). A really intriguing prospect. BUT was must underline it was not Turcotte's fault at all, that he was 5th overall pick, it was GM Blake's fault.

I don't hate Blake (hate is so strong word), I just think that he is not a good GM. Actually I think he is a well, well below average GM. Why so? Because his draftphilsophy/tendency/visio stinks.

He was named Kings GM 2017-04-10. After that Kings have drafted 5 goalies (Villalta, Ingham, Hrenak, Parik, Markkanen). It will take at least three years to see, if goaltender has potential, so it hard to say how good this group is. Highest pick (#72) is Matt Villalta and he's has been unimpressive (actually a really erratic) in Ontario. Ingham has played mostly in the ECHL and his numbers are not good.

Between 2017-2020 Kings have drafted 10 defencemen (Mikey Anderson, Markus Philipps, Cole Hults, Tobias Björnfot, Jordan Spence, Kim Nousiainen, Braden Doyle, Helge Grans, Brock Faber, Ben Meehan). One player (Grans) is 6'3", one player (Faber) is 6'1", Anderson, Philipps, Hults, Björnfot, Meehan are generously listed 6'0", Doyle is 5'11", Nousiainen and Spence are between 5'10" - 5'9". You just can't build a good defence around draftees, whose average size is mostly below NHL's average (6'1", 200 lbs).

What about forwards? Blake and his employees (Kings amateur scouting staff) have not drafted a single player, who does have a mean streak. First, second and third round guys are all very much same mold (skill). Vilardi, JAD, Kupari, Thomas, Shafigullin, Turcotte, Kaliyev, Fagemo, Byfield, (Lias Andersson), Simontaival, Laferriere.

Byfield is big and will be a huge, fast and strong when he is finally ready. Kaliyev is starting to realize, that he is a big boy. He never will be a "power forward", but he will be a player, who can and will use his sizeadvantage effectively. Vilardi is 6'3", but he doesn't play physical play at all (injuryhistory surely affects). That threesome - size yes, but mean streak? No, I haven't seen any of these guys play mean/dirty.

Other forward draftees (4th - 7th rounders, a bunch of longshots; Rymsha, Dudas, Södergran, Lee, Chromiak, Jämsen) - if one of them plays a single game in the NHL, it will be a huge suprise.

There is no diversity among draftees (no toughness, no bodycheckers, no "criminals") and that is an awful mistake. And because Kings don't draft any toughness, they have to sign UFAs (like Kurtis MacDermid - who should not play in the NHL at all) or trade them (like B. Lemiuex, who doesn't impress me much - borderline NHLer). I hope that this summer Blake&co drafts more size, more grit/toughness and more Canadian players, especially WHLers. I don't belive it, but one can always hope for it.


And sorry my English, I hope you understand what I'm trying to say.

No, no English problems there--all very well said I wouldn't have guessed if you wouldn't have said otherwise, haha.

So, going back a few years--people were bitching that all DL did was draft for character and stayed away from Euros. Blake suddenly starts drafting for speed and skill to the tune of the best pool in the league (Top 3 at worst), and the OPPOSITE problem arises. It's all easy to see and I said that even in 2017, we're drafting a bunch of skinny NES ice hockey dudes. But I think, size aside, you underestimate the diversity of the pool. Blake is drafting from all sorts of different countries, taking swings, and getting late round values. I think the problem at this point is that those guys are still too young prospects wise to really start making it--next year is when I think we can really start evaluating the results of Blake's drafting and whatever the second part of his building program is (have to start turning those assets into success). But, imo, if these picks pan out--all he's chasing is toughness (UFA) and goaltending (we have enough time on this, Petersen). And of course, a unicorn d-man, like everyone else. I'm not ready to Blake is good or bad--but I'd argue he's knocked the 'easy part' out of the park so far. What happens next matters most (this offseason).

I also think the type of player you describe doesn't exist in the quantity it once used to, and you'll start seeing those guys getting overvalued again (I wanted Neighbors, for example, and look where he went)

 

[LAKings88]

No, no English problems there--all very well said I wouldn't have guessed if you wouldn't have said otherwise, haha.

So, going back a few years--people were bitching that all DL did was draft for character and stayed away from Euros. Blake suddenly starts drafting for speed and skill to the tune of the best pool in the league (Top 3 at worst), and the OPPOSITE problem arises. It's all easy to see and I said that even in 2017, we're drafting a bunch of skinny NES ice hockey dudes. But I think, size aside, you underestimate the diversity of the pool. Blake is drafting from all sorts of different countries, taking swings, and getting late round values. I think the problem at this point is that those guys are still too young prospects wise to really start making it--next year is when I think we can really start evaluating the results of Blake's drafting and whatever the second part of his building program is (have to start turning those assets into success). But, imo, if these picks pan out--all he's chasing is toughness (UFA) and goaltending (we have enough time on this, Petersen). And of course, a unicorn d-man, like everyone else. I'm not ready to Blake is good or bad--but I'd argue he's knocked the 'easy part' out of the park so far. What happens next matters most (this offseason).

I also think the type of player you describe doesn't exist in the quantity it once used to, and you'll start seeing those guys getting overvalued again (I wanted Neighbors, for example, and look where he went)

Stole the words out of my mouth

 

[bland]

No, no English problems there--all very well said I wouldn't have guessed if you wouldn't have said otherwise, haha.

So, going back a few years--people were bitching that all DL did was draft for character and stayed away from Euros. Blake suddenly starts drafting for speed and skill to the tune of the best pool in the league (Top 3 at worst), and the OPPOSITE problem arises. It's all easy to see and I said that even in 2017, we're drafting a bunch of skinny NES ice hockey dudes. But I think, size aside, you underestimate the diversity of the pool. Blake is drafting from all sorts of different countries, taking swings, and getting late round values. I think the problem at this point is that those guys are still too young prospects wise to really start making it--next year is when I think we can really start evaluating the results of Blake's drafting and whatever the second part of his building program is (have to start turning those assets into success). But, imo, if these picks pan out--all he's chasing is toughness (UFA) and goaltending (we have enough time on this, Petersen). And of course, a unicorn d-man, like everyone else. I'm not ready to Blake is good or bad--but I'd argue he's knocked the 'easy part' out of the park so far. What happens next matters most (this offseason).

I also think the type of player you describe doesn't exist in the quantity it once used to, and you'll start seeing those guys getting overvalued again (I wanted Neighbors, for example, and look where he went)

I was a mildly disappointed in the Simontaival and Chromiak picks last year just for that reason, too many swings for the fences instead of shoring up the backbone.

But, even though it hasn't been stated by any one within the organization publicly, I do think that they may change their drafting focus away from looking for home runs towards safer character picks as their draft positioning sinks downward in the standings.

BPA is a myth, a platitude thrown out so you don't have to share the reasoning for the selection. There are so many factors worked into the selections that BPA is really Best Fit Available for the plan at the time.

If the idea was to address the glaring lack of skill left by Lombardi, they have really addressed that focus. Its too early to claim any kind of pattern, but the kinds of picks made as well as the pro roster moves show a full embrace of the rebuild. That is a longterm commitment, and while the scouting community has been dealt a shitty hand this year, I am very interested to see if they start looking for bigger wingers and defenders as the next priority.

 

[Choralone]

Turcotte was the consensus number 3 pick heading into the draft - he "fell" to us at 5. What's this revisionist stuff that we went off the board or something in selecting him?

 

[SFKingshomer]

Turcotte was the consensus number 3 pick heading into the draft - he "fell" to us at 5. What's this revisionist stuff that we went off the board or something in selecting him?

He was in a group of guys that could have gone from 3-10. After the top 2, it was a crap shoot. Funny thing is I think the top 2 won’t even be the best players from the draft.

 

[bland]

Turcotte was the consensus number 3 pick heading into the draft - he "fell" to us at 5. What's this revisionist stuff that we went off the board or something in selecting him?

Draft picks will always be debated in the best of times. In a rebuild, when their importance is at their highest, that debate gets intensified. Different people want to see different things for different reasons. Luckily the Kings have so many areas of need that any pick will have something positive to offer.

Turcotte is somebody I never considered for the Kings as I thought it was a shoe-in he was going to Chicago. Dach was our guy unless Colorado went screwy. I resigned myself about Turcotte by thinking that we already had a guy in JAD that did some of the same things if a notch or two lower on the food chain.

I don't really care if Turcotte is a prolific scorer. That's not what makes him valuable. He is a culture changer. He is a high pace, high skill support player. His strength is in getting pucks moved from station to station with control and directly into high danger areas. It involves everyone on the ice, keeps them focused as a unit and not as a bunch of individuals.

Speed in hockey is not generated by feet, its by decision making and support of like minded teammates who know where they should be to support the next guy and get the puck into the right spot before the defenders. Those accumulated half seconds create the time and space for higher quality chances.

That's exactly how Vegas plays. Doesn't matter what line, they all do the same thing. Collective effort exceeding pure talent. Turcotte is a prototypical Golden Knight, everything moving from one station to the next where the next guy is already heading. Its smooth, direct, intense hockey. Very easy on the eye and can be very successful if you get everyone on the same page. You may not see individuals racking up gaudy numbers, but you see a team with a common goal in mind.

All we need from Turcotte right now is experience. Get some games in, get used to the size and pace, grow as a player. His strengths translate well to the NHL, he just needs to get ready for the big time. I am not worried in the least. I would prefer if he was dominating and ready immediately, but I am not concerned that he isn't.

Worrying about the value and NHL readiness of the prospects of the last two drafts in just a fools errand and pure impatience. Suggesting that not making it to the NHL immediately is some sort of failure is naive and arguing about it is fruitless.

 

[Herby]

Turcotte was the consensus number 3 pick heading into the draft - he "fell" to us at 5. What's this revisionist stuff that we went off the board or something in selecting him?

He was not the consensus #3 pick. There was a consensus Top 2 and beyond that a bunch of guys grouped closely. Turcotte was anywhere from 3-8 in most respected publications. No one has said they reached, some people had different guys they wanted Blake to take. Just because someone preferred Zegras, Cozens or Caufield doesn’t mean they think it was off the board.