Ontario Reign 20-21 Part III

[kingsboy11]

Continue here

Click to read more...

 

[King'sPawn]

Well, not the results we wanted, but I am seeing tangible improvement with many of the players.

Most notable improvements, to me, have been Byfield and Thomas.

Turcotte has always had a good showing, but the numbers weren't always there. Kaliyev shows a variety of offensive skills I always knew he had, so he hasn't looked BAD, but I don't see a major change to his on-ice approach to the game.

Phillips has looked better from day one, but has still never looked great.

Eyssimont has the widest range of peaks and valleys among the forwards.

Durzi, to me, has lost his spot as the powerplay. He has shown very little growth in his offensive skills and defensively, his awareness is still in question.

Berube has looked better the past two games, but goaltending has been the biggest detractor from the team's success. Especially Villalta.

 

[Vino]

Turcotte has always had a good showing, but the numbers weren't always there. Kaliyev shows a variety of offensive skills I always knew he had, so he hasn't looked BAD, but I don't see a major change to his on-ice approach to the game.

Totally disagree.

Quate is old, but like coach Wrobo said: "On the recently formed top line of Turcotte-Kupari-Kaliyev – “If you have three players with elite characteristics and elite attributes, and you have the means to put them together, you’re gonna have a threat every time out. They can win your games, right? They can get you two or three at even strength, and maybe even one on the power play. Next thing you know, that’s a winning combination. If everybody else just plays even-up, you have a great chance to win. Kind of like a poker game, getting your chips in at the right time, we feel like it was a strong move to make. It’s proven to be pretty good and we’ll see how it goes. You also have to be thinking long-term development and also sometimes situations need tweaking before they’ve run their course. But we like their game. Kupari has been really good, but I think Kaliyev’s progress this year has just been absolutely tremendous. Even when he wasn’t scoring, he tried to stick to the team system of playing behind and doing things he had never done before. It just keeps showing again and again, the way that he’s been playing the game and his maturity jump has been tremendous. Now he’s getting rewarded for it. He didn’t score for a long time, but stuck with it and listened to, ‘This is how you have to play.’ There’s plenty of reasons for him not to trust it, yet he kept doing it. Now he’s getting rewarded with a lot of scoring chances and is producing tangibly.”

Sunday: Ontario Reign Projected Lineup vs Bako, Several Changes, Plus Wrobo Quotes

Kaliyev has been a really positive suprise, unlike Turcotte. Turcotte's defensive play is overrated here, just like Kaliey's overall game is underrated. He is not as good defensively as Turcotte, but I don't think that he is a liability.

Turcotte is a smart player and he can pass, but his shot is pure shit. No wonder he prefers passing.

Still pisses me off, that Blake - that f***ing idiot - took undersize, skinny, injuryprone Turcotte instead of Dylan Cozens. Kings have a pretty good amateur scouting staff, but Blake is doing below average job, when he is doing his 1st round pickings.

 

[King'sPawn]

Totally disagree.

Quate is old, but like coach Wrobo said: "On the recently formed top line of Turcotte-Kupari-Kaliyev – “If you have three players with elite characteristics and elite attributes, and you have the means to put them together, you’re gonna have a threat every time out. They can win your games, right? They can get you two or three at even strength, and maybe even one on the power play. Next thing you know, that’s a winning combination. If everybody else just plays even-up, you have a great chance to win. Kind of like a poker game, getting your chips in at the right time, we feel like it was a strong move to make. It’s proven to be pretty good and we’ll see how it goes. You also have to be thinking long-term development and also sometimes situations need tweaking before they’ve run their course. But we like their game. Kupari has been really good, but I think Kaliyev’s progress this year has just been absolutely tremendous. Even when he wasn’t scoring, he tried to stick to the team system of playing behind and doing things he had never done before. It just keeps showing again and again, the way that he’s been playing the game and his maturity jump has been tremendous. Now he’s getting rewarded for it. He didn’t score for a long time, but stuck with it and listened to, ‘This is how you have to play.’ There’s plenty of reasons for him not to trust it, yet he kept doing it. Now he’s getting rewarded with a lot of scoring chances and is producing tangibly.”

Sunday: Ontario Reign Projected Lineup vs Bako, Several Changes, Plus Wrobo Quotes

Kaliyev has been a really positive suprise, unlike Turcotte. Turcotte's defensive play is overrated here, just like Kaliey's overall game is underrated. He is not as good defensively as Turcotte, but I don't think that he is a liability.

Turcotte is a smart player and he can pass, but his shot is pure shit. No wonder he prefers passing.

Still pisses me off, that Blake - that f***ing idiot - took undersize, skinny, injuryprone Turcotte instead of Dylan Cozens. Kings have a pretty good amateur scouting staff, but Blake is doing below average job, when he is doing his 1st round pickings.

I think Wrobo's quote regarding Kaliyev agrees with me. He kept sticking with it and didn't change the way he played. Which is what I said. I'm not surprised by his skillset. Those that are surprised haven't watched him or paid attention.

Feel free to bemoan the first round picks but I'm not going to bother engaging it. I don't have the energy anymore.

 

[Statto]

I think Wrobo's quote regarding Kaliyev agrees with me. He kept sticking with it and didn't change the way he played. Which is what I said. I'm not surprised by his skillset. Those that are surprised haven't watched him or paid attention.

Feel free to bemoan the first round picks but I'm not going to bother engaging it. I don't have the energy anymore.

People enjoy moaning and complaining and post far more negative stuff than positive, even after a good result. That’s a fact about human nature, before the internet the it was a case that if something good happens on average you tell 3 people, something bad you told 7. In the internet world that multiplies exponentially. So like you I don’t engage with much of it.

There is an unwillingness to realise that prospects won’t be ready instantly and take time to develop. The eagerness to say ‘I told you so, I knew player ‘x’ was better, the GM sucks’ leaves me unwilling to get into an argument where the facts and context won’t carry much weight. Who know they may end up sucking, but it is way too early to take that view. The rebuild will take time and they are going to develop these guys for the long term, so people will have to be very patient... which is what most of us struggle with.

I agree with Kaliyev, because the previous criticism of his game was based on highlight reels and assumptions caused by his scoring rate (like Byfield). He has always worked fairly hard and his defensive game was underrated, he needed to polish it but the system was clearly based on him being the high guy in the zone. I posted to that effect previously so like you I’m not surprised at all that he’s doing a good job on that side of things.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Still pisses me off, that Blake - that f***ing idiot - took undersize, skinny, injuryprone Turcotte instead of Dylan Cozens. Kings have a pretty good amateur scouting staff, but Blake is doing below average job, when he is doing his 1st round pickings.

Christ.

Can you imagine what would be said here if Turcotte had 10 points in the NHL this season?

That's the prospect being exalted above.

We get it, you hate Turcotte, you've been consistently banging that drum for years--but this is also a bit completely premature and completely lacking perspective.

 

[bland]

Christ.

Can you imagine what would be said here if Turcotte had 10 points in the NHL this season?

That's the prospect being exalted above.

We get it, you hate Turcotte, you've been consistently banging that drum for years--but this is also a bit completely premature and completely lacking perspective.

It's just nonsense.

 

[King'sPawn]

Christ.

Can you imagine what would be said here if Turcotte had 10 points in the NHL this season?

That's the prospect being exalted above.

We get it, you hate Turcotte, you've been consistently banging that drum for years--but this is also a bit completely premature and completely lacking perspective.

Completely overlooked is the Kings took the much bigger Byfield over the smaller and skinnier Tim Stutzle. Nevermind Stutzle got injured right after he was drafted, too. And those "bad" first round picks include Bjornfot, Kupari, and Vilardi as well.

I'm very meh on Cozens. He's not a bad player, but I always saw him as a high floor, lower ceiling player.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

It's just nonsense.

Completely overlooked is the Kings took the much bigger Byfield over the smaller and skinnier Tim Stutzle. Nevermind Stutzle got injured right after he was drafted, too. And those "bad" first round picks include Bjornfot, Kupari, and Vilardi as well.

I'm very meh on Cozens. He's not a bad player, but I always saw him as a high floor, lower ceiling player.

My thing is just this forum seems to think some similar aged prospects as Turcotte/Byfield are having some major uber-success (they aren't) and that it makes Turcotte/Byfield bad picks (they're not even if others were). Development isn't a race and it isn't linear. Otherwise people would have been begging for Calder winner Barret Jackman on their teams, Mackinnon was a bust for a few years, and so on.

 

[Herby]

Well, not the results we wanted, but I am seeing tangible improvement with many of the players.

Most notable improvements, to me, have been Byfield and Thomas.

Turcotte has always had a good showing, but the numbers weren't always there.

Agreed on Byfield and Thomas. Wish QB would shoot more but you can see that the talent is there to be a great NHL player. Thomas will be a useful swiss army type that can play many different roles, great value where the Kings got him.

On Turcotte, there comes a point where the production has to come though, and people can't keep excusing it. People can stay "stat watchers" and his game is more than stats, but 1 goal vs a goalie in 23 games this season, a year after having issues scoring goals at the previous level has to be a significant red flag for this organization if he is still projected as the organizations future 2C. No matter what else a guy brings, if you are taking a forward #5 overall there has to be an expectation that he can produce offensively, period. If he is going to be more of a JAD type player that isn't the end of the world, but it also means the Kings may have to take a long hard look at a Johnson, Beniers or Sillinger at this years draft, where in an ideal world the Kings aren't worried about the 2C hole going forward and can focus solely on drafting a defenseman. But I think we may be in BPA again this year.

Totally disagree.

Quate is old, but like coach Wrobo said: "On the recently formed top line of Turcotte-Kupari-Kaliyev – “If you have three players with elite characteristics and elite attributes, and you have the means to put them together, you’re gonna have a threat every time out. They can win your games, right? They can get you two or three at even strength, and maybe even one on the power play. Next thing you know, that’s a winning combination. If everybody else just plays even-up, you have a great chance to win. Kind of like a poker game, getting your chips in at the right time, we feel like it was a strong move to make. It’s proven to be pretty good and we’ll see how it goes. You also have to be thinking long-term development and also sometimes situations need tweaking before they’ve run their course. But we like their game. Kupari has been really good, but I think Kaliyev’s progress this year has just been absolutely tremendous. Even when he wasn’t scoring, he tried to stick to the team system of playing behind and doing things he had never done before. It just keeps showing again and again, the way that he’s been playing the game and his maturity jump has been tremendous. Now he’s getting rewarded for it. He didn’t score for a long time, but stuck with it and listened to, ‘This is how you have to play.’ There’s plenty of reasons for him not to trust it, yet he kept doing it. Now he’s getting rewarded with a lot of scoring chances and is producing tangibly.”

Sunday: Ontario Reign Projected Lineup vs Bako, Several Changes, Plus Wrobo Quotes

Kaliyev has been a really positive suprise, unlike Turcotte. Turcotte's defensive play is overrated here, just like Kaliey's overall game is underrated. He is not as good defensively as Turcotte, but I don't think that he is a liability.

Turcotte is a smart player and he can pass, but his shot is pure shit. No wonder he prefers passing.

Still pisses me off, that Blake - that f***ing idiot - took undersize, skinny, injuryprone Turcotte instead of Dylan Cozens. Kings have a pretty good amateur scouting staff, but Blake is doing below average job, when he is doing his 1st round pickings.

1. I am a bit surprised that Cozens is the guy you are enamored with, I understand wishing for more from that pick but Cozens just seems redundant now that the Kings have Byfield. Nothing against Cozens, but if we had a do-over with that pick there are a couple of guys I'm taking before him.

As for the rest, if the goal is to develop players for the NHL, which is what people are saying when they excuse the Reign's record this year (and that is an understandable argument) then why is a center you invested a Top 5 pick in playing on the wing? If it's to make the team better that is fine, but it seems to throw the "Judge Wrobo on development not wins and losses" argument out the window. Unless the Kings now project Turcotte as a winger at the next level, which is a tad bit concerning not even 2 years after that pick was made. I wish one of the people who cover this team could get an answer on that.

Christ.

Can you imagine what would be said here if Turcotte had 10 points in the NHL this season?

That's the prospect being exalted above.

This is simply not true. Turcotte has 2 goals (1 of them into an EN) and 11 assists in 23 games in a watered down AHL this season and most of you are still extremely bullish. You mean to tell me if he had 4+6 (with very little PP time) in 28 games in the NHL that people would be more critical? No f'n way. If Turcotte had that kind of ES production in the NHL at 19 I think it's the exact opposite, there is probably much less question marks about his ability to produce offensively at higher levels of hockey.

 

[tbrown33]

any time someone calls a prospect too "skinny"

(evergreen for most any prospect discussion)

 

[funky]

To me Turcotte is the perfect winger for Byfield. Both have great speed, both have the skill to play off the rush or cycle and Turcotte has great vision while Byfield with his size will get to the open spots. Both will be good two way players. Now throw Kaliyev on their wing and let the other team forget about him for just a few seconds and we know what he can do.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

This is simply not true. Turcotte has 2 goals (1 of them into an EN) and 11 assists in 23 games in a watered down AHL this season and most of you are still extremely bullish. You mean to tell me if he had 4+6 (with very little PP time) in 28 games in the NHL that people would be more critical? No f'n way. If Turcotte had that kind of ES production in the NHL at 19 I think it's the exact opposite, there is probably much less question marks about his ability to produce offensively at higher levels of hockey.

Bullshit.

Turcotte had been going PPG since returning from injury and people were still laying into him. Kirby Dach was scoring at the Kyle Clifford pace and Clifford was being eviscerated while Dach was being glorified.

This forum cannot see beyond its own 'problems' to understand the grass isn't always greener. It's very telling that you're continually auditing Turcotte's production into strictly goals and without context.

Turcotte puts up 10 points in the NHL this year and I guarantee you you're full on calling him a 'bust' for his slot rather than dancing around the edges of saying it.

it's not about being bearish, it's about recognizing the accomplishments--or in this case, true lack thereof--of his contemporaries.

 

[tomd]

I have no opinion of the long-term future of Turcotte. He may live up to his draft position or he may not.

But his lack of production this year does suggest that he can't be counted on to step into the NHL lineup next year and that has implication for Blake and his off-season. IMO, Blake can simply not go into next season with the 2C position unfilled. Neither Vilardi nor Turcotte nor Kupari appear ready to handle the job full-time. I'm sure Blake was hoping that one of his draft picks would step into that role in 21-22 but that is not going to happen. He's going to have to go outside the organization to fill that role for next year. It is simply too big a void to exist for yet another season. Ditto with a 2LW and a top 4 LHD. Time for Blake to fill the holes or step aside for someone who can.

 

[Herby]

Bullshit.

Turcotte had been going PPG since returning from injury and people were still laying into him. Kirby Dach was scoring at the Kyle Clifford pace and Clifford was being eviscerated while Dach was being glorified.

This forum cannot see beyond its own 'problems' to understand the grass isn't always greener. It's very telling that you're continually auditing Turcotte's production into strictly goals and without context.

Turcotte puts up 10 points in the NHL this year and I guarantee you you're full on calling him a 'bust' for his slot rather than dancing around the edges of saying it.

it's not about being bearish, it's about recognizing the accomplishments--or in this case, true lack thereof--of his contemporaries.

Again, with the bust talk. I compare him to a player I absolutely love in JAD but I think he is a bust? You are better than this, disappointment with a lower ceiling does not equal bust. Yes, I think in the 2 years since that draft he has been passed up by players taken after him. That does not make him a bust, I’ve never once said that, why do you bring it up?

Dach was 18 playing in the best league in the world, playing in the NHL at 18 is an accomplishment that only usually 1-2 players a year make, so ofcourse people were hyping him, and to be fair, most of the Dach hype came after the restart where he was a significantly better player. Cozens is 19 playing in the best league in the world, please cite any time in 20 years posting on this board where I called a teenager playing in the NHL a bust? You, honestly think if Alex Turcotte was on an 12G/18A 82 game pace as a teenager that I'd be concerned with the selection and questioning the pick? Lol you can’t possibly be serious. That take is as wild as anything AndyS has said, I had to read it twice to believe it. You're basically saying that I have an irrational hatred, which is unfortunate considering how much we have communicated on this board. And which makes no sense because he was #2 on who I wanted the Kings to draft, ahead of both Cozens and Dach. So what caused the irrational hatred?

I don’t get how you can mock the other guy for hyping Cozens who has 4+6 with very little PP time in the best league in the world then hype Turcotte’s 2+11 in 23 games in a much weaker league with more PP time. I mean, knowing what the other 2019s have done in the league so far what does Cozens do in the AHL, Zegras like production? Ok, why can’t our guy who we took before both those guys have similar production in the AHL? Am I asking to much?

Are you in the least bit concerned with the ability to score goals at higher levels based on the last two years? What does, "Mentioning his goal-scoring without context" even mean? what is the context that I am missing, he has 1 goal vs a goalie in 23 AHL games this year. What context am I not adding? I included his assists, so what is the context you'd like to add to his goal-scoring numbers?

Are you in the least bit concerned that he was playing some winger this year? Shit, I’m usually the one defending wingers on this board, and it’s not the end of the world if he is a winger but a lot of the appeal in drafting him as a MR like player goes away if the Kings don’t think he can play center.

 

[SFKingshomer]

I’m more concerned with Turcottes durability and switch to wing than I am his production. He’s produced at a decent clip when healthy considering the team he’s on. There’s not many big producers there.

 

[Herby]

I have no opinion of the long-term future of Turcotte. He may live up to his draft position or he may not.

But his lack of production this year does suggest that he can't be counted on to step into the NHL lineup next year and that has implication for Blake and his off-season. IMO, Blake can simply not go into next season with the 2C position unfilled. Neither Vilardi nor Turcotte nor Kupari appear ready to handle the job full-time. I'm sure Blake was hoping that one of his draft picks would step into that role in 21-22 but that is not going to happen. He's going to have to go outside the organization to fill that role for next year. It is simply too big a void to exist for yet another season. Ditto with a 2LW and a top 4 LHD. Time for Blake to fill the holes or step aside for someone who can.

Good post, and yes you are correct on 2C issue. To put it in DL language I am pretty sure that the Kings had a box marked off for one of the three players you mentioned. No one expected all three to rise quickly, that is unrealistic, but I don't believe expecting one of them to take a big step and be impactful next season in a top 6 role was out of the realm of possibility. I mentioned it in another thread but there have been plenty of players taken at similar spots in the draft who by the time they were the age of those guys had started to or had already made that step.

I think the Kings 2C next season is going to either be Byfield or Eichel (or some other star we don't know is available yet) I just don't see any way they can count on Gabe again after what he has shown this season, he is probably destined for the wing long-term anyways. Kupari can make the jump but not as a scoring line center, Turcotte will be back in the AHL and could be in the process of a transition to the wing anyways.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Again, with the bust talk. I compare him to a player I absolutely love in JAD but I think he is a bust? You are better than this, disappointment with a lower ceiling does not equal bust. Yes, I think in the 2 years since that draft he has been passed up by players taken after him. That does not make him a bust, I’ve never once said that, why do you bring it up?

Dach was 18 playing in the best league in the world, playing in the NHL at 18 is an accomplishment that only usually 1-2 players a year make, so ofcourse people were hyping him, and to be fair, most of the Dach hype came after the restart where he was a significantly better player. Cozens is 19 playing in the best league in the world, please cite any time in 20 years posting on this board where I called a teenager playing in the NHL a bust? You, honestly think if Alex Turcotte was on an 12G/18A 82 game pace as a teenager that I'd be concerned with the selection and questioning the pick? Lol you can’t possibly be serious. That take is as wild as anything AndyS has said, I had to read it twice to believe it. You're basically saying that I have an irrational hatred, which is unfortunate considering how much we have communicated on this board. And which makes no sense because he was #2 on who I wanted the Kings to draft, ahead of both Cozens and Dach. So what caused the irrational hatred?

I don’t get how you can mock the other guy for hyping Cozens who has 4+6 with very little PP time in the best league in the world then hype Turcotte’s 2+11 in 23 games in a much weaker league with more PP time. I mean, knowing what the other 2019s have done in the league so far what does Cozens do in the AHL, Zegras like production? Ok, why can’t our guy who we took before both those guys have similar production in the AHL? Am I asking to much?

Are you in the least bit concerned with the ability to score goals at higher levels based on the last two years? What does, "Mentioning his goal-scoring without context" even mean? what is the context that I am missing, he has 1 goal vs a goalie in 23 AHL games this year. What context am I not adding? I included his assists, so what is the context you'd like to add to his goal-scoring numbers?

Are you in the least bit concerned that he was playing some winger this year? Shit, I’m usually the one defending wingers on this board, and it’s not the end of the world if he is a winger but a lot of the appeal in drafting him as a MR like player goes away if the Kings don’t think he can play center.

My point is you and others are placing WAY too much emphasis on sub-20 players simply existing in the NHL while denigrating those doing anything elsewhere--as if guys like Turcotte/Byfield couldn't do it on the NHL roster vs. being asked to develop differently.

 

[DoktorJeep]

If Turcotte had returned to the NCAA and had similar injury issues, the fan concern would be higher. If he had done well, he would still be less prepared for Kings camp next year irrespective of his AHL time this year.

I’ve seen enough from Alex to know he is a play driver with the talent to skate with skilled linemates. Let him take his lumps in the AHL. It’s still a pro league and amateur results should be weighted lower.

 

[Herby]

My point is you and others are placing WAY too much emphasis on sub-20 players simply existing in the NHL while denigrating those doing anything elsewhere--as if guys like Turcotte/Byfield couldn't do it on the NHL roster vs. being asked to develop differently.

Byfield could be in the NHL and probably would be if the AHL option weren’t available. He’d probably have had a similar season to Dach because like Dach he’s an elite prospect with elite skill and size. We would all be super excited if this were normal circumstances and QB had a 12G/30 point season while improving with each game. I know you wouldn’t criticize him and compare him to Kyle Clifford like you for some reason have done with Dach, Stutzle and now apparently Cozens. You’d be hyping like you do with everyone but this one would be warranted. I have no issues with Byfield as a prospect other than I wish he had been up sooner but that’s a management decision. He has all the makings of a star, just needs to shoot more.

I don’t even know what you are saying with the other part, that those guys are up when they shouldn’t be and the Kings could do the same with Turcotte and QB. QB would probably be up by now if the contract thing weren’t a factor so just a matter of time. Turcotte’s play in the AHL has simply not warranted a call-up. And that’s fine, no one is criticizing Turcotte for not being an NHL’er, the criticisms are his lack of production compared to his peers from the same draft, his durability and the fact that the Kings *might* no longer think he can be a center in the NHL. (Need more information)

I’m still wondering what context I missed in simply stating his statistics in the AHL. I know people hate to bring up statistics when they are disappointing and love to when they are positive. I just have no idea what the missed context was.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Byfield could be in the NHL and probably would be if the AHL option weren’t available. He’d probably have had a similar season to Dach because like Dach he’s an elite prospect with elite skill and size. We would all be super excited if this were normal circumstances and QB had a 12G/30 point season while improving with each game. I know you wouldn’t criticize him and compare him to Kyle Clifford like you for some reason have done with Dach, Stutzle and now apparently Cozens. You’d be hyping like you do with everyone but this one would be warranted. I have no issues with Byfield as a prospect other than I wish he had been up sooner but that’s a management decision. He has all the makings of a star, just needs to shoot more.

I don’t even know what you are saying with the other part, that those guys are up when they shouldn’t be and the Kings could do the same with Turcotte and QB. QB would probably be up by now if the contract thing weren’t a factor so just a matter of time. Turcotte’s play in the AHL has simply not warranted a call-up.

I’m still wondering what context I missed in simply stating his statistics in the AHL. I know people hate to bring up statistics when they are disappointing and love to when they are positive. I just have no idea what the missed context was.

And then similar to Dach and Cozens, he'd probably put up 30-40 points--and people would be complaining he's a bust. That's my point. People are going "wow look at these guys experiencing success in the NHL" and they're not doing anything that's so much better than our prospects that anyone should call Rob Blake a f***ing idiot already over Cozens/Turcotte. You can call it 'hyping' if you want, I'm simply providing literal production facts.

I'm obviously not making a direct comparison between Dach and Clifford, I'm only pointing out that's the production level that impresses people OUTSIDE the Kings that gets them ABSOLUTELY DESTROYED by this forum within the Kings. It's not 'criticism' of Dach, I love the player. It doesn't have to be Clifford. Look at Iafallo. Random UFA with 40 points? Wow look at him. Interior support winger on a shit team putting up 50? Ship him out.

My point is that guys like Cozens, Dach, etc being in the NHL is great, but the implication is that Turcotte and Byfield CANT be, not that the Kings have chosen not to put them there. NJ pushed Hughes in because why not? We're holding Turcotte and Byfield back because "why rush?" But that's being held against them as you denigrate the AHL and their development in it as team leaders rather than being NHL depth passengers in favorable matchups. I have no doubt they could be enjoying the same level of 'success' riding coattails in the NHL. Turcotte on Kopitar's wing would be racking up assists imo.

The context your missing is what you're praising others for--ongoing development. Turcotte came back and was going PPG; same with Byfield. You're focused on his overall/total production rather than what they've shown since. Why? It's unreal to give others credit for developing while ignoring this crucial tidbit.

In short, it comes down to myopic criticism. None of these prospects have shown so much that there should be so much hand-wringing over the Turcotte pick at this point.

We've talked through your issues with Turcotte and I respectfully disagree with them--my stuff above has to do with this overreactionary stuff that ignores the differences between players playing sheltered NHL roles vs. those playing bigger roles elsewhere and ESPECIALLY with the context of the reign this year.

 

[LAKings88]

Madden going down this year sucked.

 

[tomd]

And then similar to Dach and Cozens, he'd probably put up 30-40 points--and people would be complaining he's a bust. That's my point. People are going "wow look at these guys experiencing success in the NHL" and they're not doing anything that's so much better than our prospects that anyone should call Rob Blake a f***ing idiot already over Cozens/Turcotte. You can call it 'hyping' if you want, I'm simply providing literal production facts.

I'm obviously not making a direct comparison between Dach and Clifford, I'm only pointing out that's the production level that impresses people OUTSIDE the Kings that gets them ABSOLUTELY DESTROYED by this forum within the Kings. It's not 'criticism' of Dach, I love the player. It doesn't have to be Clifford. Look at Iafallo. Random UFA with 40 points? Wow look at him. Interior support winger on a shit team putting up 50? Ship him out.

My point is that guys like Cozens, Dach, etc being in the NHL is great, but the implication is that Turcotte and Byfield CANT be, not that the Kings have chosen not to put them there. NJ pushed Hughes in because why not? We're holding Turcotte and Byfield back because "why rush?" But that's being held against them as you denigrate the AHL and their development in it as team leaders rather than being NHL depth passengers in favorable matchups. I have no doubt they could be enjoying the same level of 'success' riding coattails in the NHL. Turcotte on Kopitar's wing would be racking up assists imo.

The context your missing is what you're praising others for--ongoing development. Turcotte came back and was going PPG; same with Byfield. You're focused on his overall/total production rather than what they've shown since. Why? It's unreal to give others credit for developing while ignoring this crucial tidbit.

In short, it comes down to myopic criticism. None of these prospects have shown so much that there should be so much hand-wringing over the Turcotte pick at this point.

I've read most of Herby's posts regarding Turcotte and I think you're misinterpreting his concern which is two-fold:
1. Turcotte was probably better served if he had stayed at Wisconsin this past year like Caufield did.
2. Turcotte has generally underperformed in both his D+1 and D+2 seasons relative to his draft position.

Agree or not, these seem to be fairly reasonable observations. I don't see him calling anyone a bust but he is expressing concern. He may be passing the eye test but isn't passing the production test...yet. At 20, he has plenty of time but no way the Kings should be counting on him for regular NHL duty in 21-22.

You two may carry on now...

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

I've read most of Herby's posts regarding Turcotte and I think you're misinterpreting his concern which is two-fold:
1. Turcotte was probably better served if he had stayed at Wisconsin this past year like Caufield did.
2. Turcotte has generally underperformed in both his D+1 and D+2 seasons relative to his draft position.

Agree or not, these seem to be fairly reasonable observations. I don't see him calling anyone a bust but he is expressing concern. He may be passing the eye test but isn't passing the production test...yet. At 20, he has plenty of time but no way the Kings should be counting on him for regular NHL duty in 21-22.

You two may carry on now...

Yes, and my response isn't at Herby's critiques of Turcotte, it's at the idea that "rob blake is a f***ing idiot" for Turcotte over Cozens at this point. It's a meta discussion of hyperbole, over-criticism of home prospects, and inability to see the 'real' production of other prospects, while making sweeping proclamations about the entire futures careers of 19 year olds.

Ultimately Herby and I simply disagree on his offensive upside, the rest is just dressing. But I don't think at all that Herby deals in the hyperbole I'm taking issue with above.

 

[LAKings88]

I still think LA wanted Byram or Dach that draft.

I remember flipping so often on it myself.

Mostly was Caufield, Turcotte, and Zegras.

Cozens wasn’t on many lips at 5. Even Caufield was a huge size caveat.

I was completely happy with Turcotte.

I still think he will be a good player for LA.