Discussion in 'Calgary Flames' started by crossbownerf, Jun 24, 2017.
IMO Valimaki is closer to being a full time NHLer as he has less holes in his game.
I honestly don’t think anyone really knows that except the Flames. I think both players have equal ceilings, I also know that Oliver has done everything the Flames have asked him.
Kylington is turning into one of the most under-appreciated prospects we have.
Not really. Just plenty of us that have been on the cautious side of things that balance out the side that has been kicking and screaming to pick him at #15 or whatever pick it was that went for Dougie.
What seems like a "strength" in junior often ends up being a hole in pro.
Obviously you did not watch the WHL playoffs. The only reason why Tri-Cities got anywhere was Valimaki putting the entire team on his shoulders. He was spectacular the entire run. That is why all the analysts and scouts say he has nothing else to learn in the Dub.
He faced the likes of Dube, Kole Lind, and Cal Foote in the first round. Four straight...
Second round was Phillips and a well balanced Victoria team again in 4 straight.
Then took Carter Hart and the Silvertips to 6 games.
Valimaki had 17 points in 12 games.... Almost 1.5 points a game in the playoffs by a d-man on a team with one line. He was by far the best player in the WHL in the playoffs.
I remember being very very confused as to why the Flames signed both Ivanans AND Jackman that offseason.
There was a feel there was another step in Jackman’s game.
Ivanans was a true blue face puncher; Tim Jackman was a good AHL scorer who was also a willing combatant; different roles imo.
I liked the Jackman signing. Didnt care for ivanans
Can you imagine there were players in the NHL not even 10 years ago with the stat lines:
61 Games, 0 Goals, 0 Assists, 136 PIM and -8... and they got jobs.
There are guys in the league now who have been prolific scorers and now as their age had gotten up there; they no liger have jobs. A guy who can give you 25-35 points in Mike Cammerri doesn’t have a job this summer lol.
Ivanans filled a role. Cammalleri doesnt really. Hes not good enough for the top 6 and isn't a good fit for a bottom 6 role.
I'm sure hes had offers though.
More so was just pointing out how times have changed.
Pretty crazy really. An entire breed of player dying out in the league; but I guess that's sport evolution.
It's definitely interesting. Less fighting and a faster pace game makes enforcer types nearly useless.
All of this is dandy, but it's a far cry from being NHL-ready or having necessarily surpassed Kylington or Kulak.
Which of those players that you named, do you expect to play in the NHL, and consistently productively, next season?
Again, this is all great, and why we should be excited about Valimaki. It is not positive proof that "Valimaki is closer to being a full time NHLer as he has less holes in his game. ". You are not remotely comparing apples to apples. You are comparing oranges to cool whip.
Valimaki, if he's not already, will without a shadow of a doubt be better than Kulak or Kylington. We haven't seen him play against men; but against his peers, even among the best in the world, he was top class.
At this stage of their development he's miles ahead of both Kulak and Kylington; and with only miles of room to grow. This guy's the real deal (not James Neal). I think he's AHL bound this fall, but it won't be long before the guy's playing on the top 4, or top pairing out there. Of the three, there's no flaw to his game which could limit him (Kylington's IQ/Prone to defensive breakdowns, Kulak's lack of athleticism/defensive awareness), you're talking about a big, strong, fast, high IQ and high character player.
Again, we have to see them all in a professional game, but, I like Valimaki's chance at leapfrogging both of them, and very soon.
Kulak and Kylington are Giordano type prospects that need a strong development system with lots of ice time to progress. There are many holes in their game and few have Gio's competitive desire to fulfill their potential. Kulak has shown he will never get to that potential. Kylington is on the right track but rushing him into the NHL as a third pairing d-man would do more harm than good.
Valimaki is more along the lines of Hanifin, Rasmus Andersson, Werenski, Shea Theodore, and Josh Morrissey where their game is more complete and easier to translate into the NHL game.
Kylington though greatly improved is still not ready for the leap as he could still use the ice time in the AHL to improve his defensive game much more.
Kulak will be at best a #4 d-man. Valimaki and I would argue Kylington both bring more dynamic pieces to their game. I half hoped he would have been claimed.
I think at best is even a stretch here. I think it's possible Kulak can play like a #4 dman for like 5 games a season. The rest he is closer to Bartowski
Don't even bruh.
Which they have had.
He's also shown he's already got the floor of an NHLer, which the other two have not actually SHOWN.
Kylington is more polished than Valimaki with significantly more pro experience. You are feeding into this myth about "holes" in his game that haven't been there for multiple seasons now. Of course he has some rough areas - SO DOES VALIMAKI.
Hanifin, who was a top 5 draft pick?
Hanifin, who was 21 last season and joined a team that rushed him to the NHL?
Hanifin, who Canes fans would tell you seriously struggles reading plays and is a WIP defensively - far from "complete"?
Hanifin, who's already on our roster and fills the quota for offensive defenseman with gap control issues?
Hanifin's an awesome player, but
1) Hanifin would not have made the Calgary Flames at the same age he made the Carolina Hurricanes due to differences in development procedure. He's actually a very raw player.
2) Valimaki was never as high-end a prospect as Noah Hanifin
Andersson, who had as many NHL games (1) as of his 21st birthday as Kylington (and Kulak, btw) and only had a cup of coffee as a 21 year old when the team was out of the playoff race? Okay, so what makes you think 19 year old Valimaki will suddenly jump in as an NHL ready player based on that?
Werenski, who led his team as a clear-cut AHL #1D to the Calder Cup championship as an 18 year old? No, 19-going-on-20 year old Valimaki is not along those lines. Werenski as a 19 year old was probably the best defense prospect since Hedman.
And what about Shea Theodore's resume is any better than Oliver Kylington's resume? Those holes you perceive about Kylington? A two-year older Theodore had the same issues, except they were real and not perceived. It seems you just decided to call him "complete" because he was a first round pick and Kylington was not.
Morrissey, who also had as many NHL games played as Kylington as of his 21st birthday with worse AHL career at the same point? What made him more "complete" than Kylington? In fact the only reason he even played in the NHL as a 21 year old was because the Jets had some of the worst LHD depth in the NHL, the opposite of having Giordano, Hanifin, Brodie, Kulak, and Kylington. They had the fossil of Enstrom and then a bunch of RHD playing their off-side.
Sounds like you've never watched Kylington or those guys play at the same ages and you're using hindsight and pseudo-foresight to create narratives.
That all applies to Valimaki. You're just drinking kool-aid and buying into years-old narratives about Kylington's defensive game. Valimaki can very much benefit from ice time in the AHL to improve his defensive game. And his offensive game, as he makes risky roving plays that simply would not fly in the pro leagues. Defensemen who at age 19 or 20 actually have a positive NHL impact can be counted on one hand, in the last handful of drafts we're basically talking Jones, McAvoy, Provorov, Sergachyev, Werenski, and Ekblad. We're not even talking about that next solid tier of guys like Hanifin, Klefbom, Nurse, Ristolainen, Chabot, Chychrun etc - all of whom should not have been playing in the NHL as 20 year olds but had the benefit of bad, desperate teams willing to throw them to the wolves, and most of whom were probably more highly regarded prospects than Valimaki.
And right now Kulak is an NHL defenseman while Valimaki has yet to play a game in a professional league. Pretending Kulak's already been passed is letting optimism rule over realism. I'd love it if Valimaki or Kylington pass Kulak this year, but right now, Valimaki has not passed Kylington and Kylington has not passed Kulak. Ceiling's got nothing to do with that if you're not presently competent in the NHL. The Morrisseys and Theodores you point to did not jump in as 19 year olds, in fact they were Kylington's age when they made the NHL. Valimaki is not a top-tier prospect like a Hanifin or Werenski nor do the Flames have any incentive to risk their playoff hopes teaching him the pro game before he shows he is too good for the AHL. Your allusions to "holes" in Kylington's game and "completion" in Valimaki's game are simply driven by the gap between the WHL and the AHL as hockey leagues as well as a lack of solid first-hand information. I've watched both pretty intensively, and right now Oliver Kylington is more complete than Juuso Valimaki in all three zones. Old narratives die hard.
I think the world of Valimaki and I think he'll be a bonafide top four defenseman before he's 24. But he has not passed Kylington. The transition to pro hockey will be a wet, cold blanket - not because he's not good, but because he'll finally be challenged to do things that were not asked of him in junior. Fewer nightly minutes, short high intensity shifts, sharing PP time with other important prospects, defending against lines of men who were former junior superstars on a nightly basis, battle big bodies every time sporadic NHL callups if any, significantly reduced viewer exposure, having to cover for lesser partners who can't hang at that level of play, occasional defensive miscues consistently finding the back of the net, etc. These are all things that lower perception of some pretty damn good AHL defensemen, many of whom are more than NHL-ready, like Oliver Kylington.
Not to mention considerations outside of his control - for instance the fact that the team will be reluctant to burn an ELC year on him by playing him 10+ games, which is a real consideration in the real world. And finally, there's the reality that he will have to earn Bill Peters' trust and one mistake could get him sent back down, while a guy like Kulak or Kylington may have a longer leash given that they have put in the time.
Valimaki is not presently closer to being a full-timer NHLer than Kylington. If he shows he is, apples-to-apples, then that's that, but right now he will probably play a pair below Kylington in the A, learning fine details with Cail MacLean and his staff. Which is perfectly acceptable. I expect Kylington to play more NHL games, and I expect Kylington's complete game to finally be on display once that happens, erasing all myths about him being some bottom pair PP specialist. This kid is the next Duncan Keith. If he has to play in the AHL next year, it's only because he got jobbed last year by the Wotherspoon-Andersson pair, who were certainly a better pair than Kylington-X, but not better individually, causing Andersson's PP production and +/- to artificially make it seem like he was ahead of Kylington.
Valimaki is and always will be ahead of Kylington.
I wasn't a big fan of staged fights, but I do find it disappointing that this is likely monetary based due to the fear of lawsuits.
Just going to point out your username.
Staged and fake are different
Scripted. How dare you.
Separate names with a comma.