OK, so there are trades. Now what?

markrander87

Registered User
Jan 22, 2010
4,216
61
This again?? Different rules for different conferences? What happens when only 15 teams want to be a part of the "no-trade conference", Same trade rules as last year and lets move on to draft order and get this draft going.
 

VanIslander

A 19-year ATDer on HfBoards
Sep 4, 2004
35,237
6,472
South Korea
so you prefer no trades but you would want unlimited trading over limited?
Yes. My vote is for 3. No trades in one conference, anything goes in another conference.

No trades is best, but we were in the minority. No trades in one conference is the next best then I think. If you want to tinker to push through trades then let anyone do anything. Three trade limit just encourages huge one-sided monster trades imo. They often are a sham in drafts.
 

seventieslord

Student Of The Game
Mar 16, 2006
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Regina, SK
That's a concern that hasn't been discuss yet.

VI did say this:

Step 1: Find out who wants to be in Trade Conference and who wants to be in Non-trade Conference.
Step 2: Assign the don't-cares to the remaining spots.
Step 3: Random draft order.
Step 4: Assign to divisions based on draft order with just one constraint: slot them into the next divisional opening within the conference they have chosen.

But yeah, I agree it's an awful, awful option overall. And those championing it appear to be undermining the process to get their way. And the above would just be more red tape getting in the way of us starting this thing.
 

seventieslord

Student Of The Game
Mar 16, 2006
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Regina, SK
Yes. My vote is for 3. No trades in one conference, anything goes in another conference.

No trades is best, but we were in the minority. No trades in one conference is the next best then I think. If you want to tinker to push through trades then let anyone do anything. Three trade limit just encourages huge one-sided monster trades imo. They often are a sham in drafts.

Forgive me, but I don't buy that. I don't see how anyone who is against trades legitimately wants option 1 over option 2.
 

VanIslander

A 19-year ATDer on HfBoards
Sep 4, 2004
35,237
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If you want trades, then just have trades.

Trying to invalidate voting options YOU gave us is wrong.

No trading in my division is what I want. Or let us do whatever. There is no inconsistency here.
 

seventieslord

Student Of The Game
Mar 16, 2006
36,113
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Regina, SK
If you want trades, then just have trades.

Trying to invalidate voting options YOU gave us is wrong.

No trading in my division is what I want. Or let us do whatever. There is no inconsistency here.

If I'm misreading you, please forgive me, but understand that it's difficult to see why someone would prefer things in this order:

- no trading.
- lots of trading.
- some trading.
 

VanIslander

A 19-year ATDer on HfBoards
Sep 4, 2004
35,237
6,472
South Korea
- no trading.
- lots of trading.
- some trading.
1. Keep the rules simple. No trades or all trades. My vote for #3 is to have both: no trades AND all trades, different teams in different conferences.

2. Drafts with trade number limits result in HUGE trades. If you have only 3 trades, then often they have six picks or more in them and are important to be not vetoed. But, drafts with no trade limits often have many smaller trades, more fair, and if a trade or two is vetoed, it's no big cost. The GMs can just make a few small trades instead of a big one. I have been in many drafts in many places and the best ones either have no trades or else let open trading happen but with a good watchdog to pass or veto bad trades.
 

seventieslord

Student Of The Game
Mar 16, 2006
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2. Drafts with trade number limits result in HUGE trades. If you have only 3 trades, then often they have six picks or more in them

Did anyone notice this happening last draft? I can honestly say that I didn't, but I could be wrong.
 

seventieslord

Student Of The Game
Mar 16, 2006
36,113
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Then you are blind. There were TONS of trades with 2 or more picks involved.

enough with the snippy attitude today, bud.

I know there were trades with more than 2 picks. But was it any more than before, when there were unlimited trades?

If there's no validity to that theory then I still stand by what I said - I don't buy what ZM is saying. I fully realize I could be wrong and if I am wrong, I'm out of line for saying this and I hope you'll both forgive me if/when I am proven wrong and apologize.
 

seventieslord

Student Of The Game
Mar 16, 2006
36,113
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Regina, SK
For the record, this is a summary of the recent trading activity:

ATDs 11 and 12, no trading restrictions:

trades involving 1 pick each way: 1
2 picks: 18
3 picks: 14
4 picks: 4
5 picks: 1

percentage of "big" trades (3+ picks each way): 50%
number of picks moved per trade: 2.63

ATD2010, three trade limit:

trades involving 2 picks each way: 19
3 picks: 20
4 picks: 3

percentage of "big" trades (3+ picks each way): 55%
number of picks moved per trade: 2.62

Conclusion: There is no connection whatsoever between a trade limitation and the size of the trades being made. However, I expect that the conversation will now shift to the fact that there were 38 total trades in the previous two drafts and 42 in ATD2010, when there was a limit. Surely the limit promotes more frequent trading, even if not larger trades?
 

hungryhungryhippy

Registered User
Feb 7, 2010
739
1
Any solution other than unlimited trading (with no convoluted conditions) is inherently doomed to fail. Stop over-complicating and micro-managing things.

The only solution that can be completely fair and equal is one in which everyone is allowed to trade, as often as they want, and at their OWN discretion. No one can complain (with reason) under this system beacuse nothign about it is arbirtrary, the conditions are not discriminatory (as soon as you impose conditions or regulations the process becomes, by definiton, discriminatory), and each competitor maintains their executive autonomy and complete free-will in decision making.

All these other solutions unnecessarily complicate matters, and moreover, they jeopardize the principle dynamics of competition: freewill, autonomy, and impartial playing rules. The idea of setting up a committee of competitors to review the trades (of fellows participants that they are supposed to be competing against) at arbitrary discretion is laughable. It'll never work effectively or efficiently enough, it will always lead to more arguing, dispute, controversy, and vitrol. (competitors being vested with the power to arbitrarily control the executive decisions of other competitors because they deem the trade to be putting their own teams at flagrant disadvantages... these guys are trying to win, aren't they?)

It creates problems with conflict of interest and individual autonomy that poison the essence and ideals of fair competition.
 

TheDevilMadeMe

Registered User
Aug 28, 2006
52,271
6,981
Brooklyn
People telling us to "hurry up and start the draft:" We are still following VI's original schedule, right? (Draft order released next week, clock starts on January 30th), so this isn't holding anything up.
 

TheDevilMadeMe

Registered User
Aug 28, 2006
52,271
6,981
Brooklyn
Zing!

I've already stress how I think option #3 is BY FAR the worst option. I would take a no-trade ATD 10-time before that. Everyone should play by the same rule.

2, 1, 4, 3

I think 3 trades maximum is fine. You could make it 5, but not much. At least the trades that will be made will be significant.

Okay, I've been trying to give option 3 a chance, since I didn't like being some nazi who prohibits people from joining a no-trade conference if they really want to. But I've yet to be convinced that it actually has any benefits, and I see myriads of problems down the road if we have different rules for different conferences (not the least of which is that I doubt we have 20 people who would be willing to join that conference).

So my vote is the same as yours:

2, 1, 4, 3
 

seventieslord

Student Of The Game
Mar 16, 2006
36,113
7,179
Regina, SK
Any solution other than unlimited trading (with no convoluted conditions) is inherently doomed to fail. Stop over-complicating and micro-managing things.

The only solution that can be completely fair and equal is one in which everyone is allowed to trade, as often as they want, and at their OWN discretion. No one can complain (with reason) under this system beacuse nothign about it is arbirtrary, the conditions are not discriminatory (as soon as you impose conditions or regulations the process becomes, by definiton, discriminatory), and each competitor maintains their executive autonomy and complete free-will in decision making.

All these other solutions unnecessarily complicate matters, and moreover, they jeopardize the principle dynamics of competition: freewill, autonomy, and impartial playing rules. The idea of setting up a committee of competitors to review the trades (of fellows participants that they are supposed to be competing against) at arbitrary discretion is laughable. It'll never work effectively or efficiently enough, it will always lead to more arguing, dispute, controversy, and vitrol. (competitors being vested with the power to arbitrarily control the executive decisions of other competitors because they deem the trade to be putting their own teams at flagrant disadvantages... these guys are trying to win, aren't they?)

It creates problems with conflict of interest and individual autonomy that poison the essence and ideals of fair competition.

My goal is to see things micromanaged as little as possible. Unlimited trading would be great, IMO. However, there are too many voices coming from too many directions, pushing for different tweaks to the system. they deserve to be heard. The way things are heading, there will be no changes to how last draft went, and last draft went fine.

I find limited trading to be a perfect compromise, personally.

Your comments about the trade approval committee are out of line, however. There has to be a lot of faith put in them to do the right thing, yes, but that's nowhere near the amount of faith that we currently put in that the voting is done honestly and not "strategically" and that the people collecting votes aren't fudging the results too. And the latter two things are done completely privately, so there is tons of room for that kind of thing compared to something done by a committee and completely out in the open (i.e. everyone can see the trade that was proposed and if someone was to veto a reasonable trade or allow a lopsided one, there would be people calling BS on them; there's no one and no way to call BS on fudging vote results and dishonest voting)

Anyway, you're clearly leaning towards one option and away from three others, but can you please publicly rank the four choices so that your vote will count? Make yourself heard.
 

Nalyd Psycho

Registered User
Feb 27, 2002
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Ditto, fellas.

The point of voting is to vote for what you really want and against what you really don't want. Not to sabotage what is shaping up to be the most popular option.

I'm voting based on what I want. For whatever reason, I find limiting the amount of trades frustratingly restrictive. While I find the idea of straight up lateral moves to be exactly what I need. Free wheeling is fun and all, but I agree that it can unbalance things. 4. Allows for balance but also tactical manoeuvring to ensure that we build our team the way we want it built.
 

hfboardsuser

Registered User
Nov 18, 2004
12,280
0
By my count:

Option 1- 26 points
Option 2- 32 points
Option 3- 20 points
Option 4- 16 points
 

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