GDT: Oilers rookies @ Flames rookies - 7pm

[Sugi21]

But even given the lack of structure one could see the silky smooth play of Bouchard back there. His confidence and timing with the puck is evident. he handles the puck with the authority of a PMD. That he knows he's one, that he expects he's one.

I thought Lavoie was better too than given credit for in the thread. he was aggressive to the puck, almost scored, and brought some compete.

That’s the double edged sword! Of course a guy like Bouchard is gonna look good and dominant in a rookie shinny game but once the games hit preseason with more NHL experienced players who are bigger, faster, stronger then we will see how he handles that situation! Even in preseason the best of the NHL players rarely play and if they do it’s limited mins. I’m not counting out Bouchard I just want to see what he can do against NHL caliber opponents.

 

[Pass the Saitl Sauce]

While I am excited about Samorukov’s potential, people have to remember he only started putting it together last season. He had shown flashes before that.

Now he’ll be in a new league so he’ll have to adjust to that and figure things out at this level.

This. I’m one of his biggest supporters but I think he needs atleast 1-2 years in the AHL. These rookies games need to be taken with a grain of salt they’re more of a showcase of the players tools than anything else.

Holland will take his time with samorukov like he did kronwall

 

[Sugi21]

You know you don't have to take a contrarian stance on every popular opinion, right?

He’s not wrong either but Benson shouldn’t be near the top 6 at this moment let alone penciled in as some are saying!

 

[guymez]

That’s the double edged sword! Of course a guy like Bouchard is gonna look good and dominant in a rookie shinny game but once the games hit preseason with more NHL experienced players who are bigger, faster, stronger then we will see how he handles that situation! Even in preseason the best of the NHL players rarely play and if they do it’s limited mins. I’m not counting out Bouchard I just want to see what he can do against NHL caliber opponents.

Much harder to play defence in a game with no structure.
I saw that Bouchard missed some reads but I am not too worried about it. As you said we need to see more in games that are more meaningful then the past 2 games.

I will say though that his skating seemed to look better to me especially his first couple of steps. Again though...I need to see a lot more to make sure what I saw yesterday was valid.

 

[guymez]

He’s not wrong either but Benson shouldn’t be near the top 6 at this moment let alone penciled in as some are saying!

Any player that scores a point per game in the AHL as a 20 year old deserves a shot in the top 6.
He has earned at least that much IMO.

 

[Fourier]

So what is his game though. I always hear these nature of comments. "He won't blow you away, he's not a flashy player, that's not his game, he won't makee highlight reel rushes, that's not his game. He won't burn anybody with speed, not his game. "

WHAT at this level, is his game?

What did you see him do well last night that convinced you that he was doing what you want to see?

I saw him pass it to Flames 3 times last night.

Didn't see any battling hard or level of urgency from Benson last night.

Whereas the Flames forwards were aggressive and fast on the rush I saw Benson slow things down and then get dispossessed of the puck

I don't think I saw Benson win a puck battle all night.

I specifically keyed on Benson, was looking for any indication that he's top rank prospect. I've done the same in the past.

Lastly how is Bensons game more suited to the NHL. I don't see him as a great fit topsix or bottomsix. What niche is he going to carve out.

If you want to know what Benson is all about read the following article by Spector who as you know is not shy about taking a contrarian view and is one of the last guys to pump up players .

Why AHL coaches, teammates have no doubt Tyler Benson will be NHLer - Sportsnet.ca

What was I looking for in these games? I wanted to see him move on the ice since he spoke about working hard on his skating. It was his skating that was the key issue that could hold him back. He is more agile and his speed is not really a problem anymore even if he will never be a burner. So that is the main box I checked off.

Frankly I couldn't care less about three bad passes or any of the things you say you saw in these two games. They mean virtually nothing compared to his full body of work. This kid is a superb passer and is a full on competitor. ​

I have followed Benson as closely as I could since before his draft with a particular focus on his final year in Vancouver. It's not easy top watch Giant games out here or games from Bak but they are all on the radio. IN his last year in junior I watched almost no OHL hockey but instead listened to games from Vancouver and Spokane. And if a guy can impress you on the radio he is doing something right. Everything in that article is completely consistent with what I have always believed about this kid.

 

[Daryls Friend]

Any player that scores a point per game in the AHL as a 20 year old deserves a shot in the top 6.
He has earned at least that much IMO.

Right now? He got 16 goals in the A

 

[Daryls Friend]

That isnt right at all.
Based on the AHL games I saw Benson has very good vision, he is smart and he is a very good passer. When there is no structure players arent where they are supposed to be which would affect a player like Benson who doesnt create based on speed.

I agree with this post in its entirety ( when I say smart for me it encompasses all that you say). I’m just not sure he has a physical attribute that will let him be a top 6’r

 

[guymez]

Right now? He got 16 goals in the A

He had 66 points in 68 games as a 20 year old.

Go check how often a 20 year old player is able to produce at that rate in the AHL. It doesnt happen that often at all and it seems to be a very good marker on how the player will be able to transition to the NHL.

 

[Louis Cypher]

people here saying "Spooner is exactly what we need"

He was exactly what we needed to get Chia fired. I just wish it was before we traded for Spooner.

 

[guymez]

I agree with this post in its entirety ( when I say smart for me it encompasses all that you say). I’m just not sure he has a physical attribute that will let him be a top 6’r

He definitely isnt a physical player but then again neither is RNH.
I think that in the right situation Benson could be a top 6 player or at the very least a middle 6 player in the NHL.

 

[Drivesaitl]

If you want to know what Benson is all about read the following article by Spector who as you know is not shy about taking a contrarian view and is one of the last guys to pump up players .

Why AHL coaches, teammates have no doubt Tyler Benson will be NHLer - Sportsnet.ca

What was I looking for in these games? I wanted to see him move on the ice since he spoke about working hard on his skating. It was his skating that was the key issue that could hold him back. He is more agile and his speed is not really a problem anymore even if he will never be a burner. So that is the main box I checked off.

Frankly I couldn't care less about three bad passes or any of the things you say you saw in these two games. They mean virtually nothing compared to his full body of work. This kid is a superb passer and is a full on competitor. ​

I have followed Benson as closely as I could since before his draft with a particular focus on his final year in Vancouver. It's not easy top watch Giant games out here or games from Bak but they are all on the radio. IN his last year in junior I watched almost no OHL hockey but instead listened to games from Vancouver and Spokane. And if a guy can impress you on the radio he is doing something right. Everything in that article is completely consistent with what I have always believed about this kid.

I read the Spector article. Contrary to what people might think I do full on researches on players. I know what Lowetide states, what coaches state, Woodcroft, his team mates etc. I've poured through it because Benson is a player of interest within the org. We need him to round out to be a useful NHL player.

Full on competitor? He got beat to the puck more times than I could count yesterday. He was guilty watching the play on several Flames rushes and not working hard to get back in the play.

I didn't see appreciable speed from him. I didn't see the two step acceleration people say he has to separate from opposition.

I do thank you for the reply. We'll see what happens. AT this level. What occurs at the AHL level is not a barometer for what occurs at this level.

Much of Bensons assists in the AHL, from what I gauge from highlights are due to having space out there. Much more time and space available in AHL than NHL. Yama has a lot of difficulty with this as well here. You just get closed down at this level without top speed and strength.

I see replays of Marody, Gambardelli beating people one on one, getting to the net after winning a key battle, and creating. Not seeing a lot of those big one on one plays with Benson. I'm seeing plays where the coverage is not so great and he connects a pass that is open.

Gamba for instance made a terrific play completely destroying his checker on the boards and coming to the net and scoring. Those plays, where you absolute own one on one, I lean to those.

I've seen the Benson "saucer pass" from last season most are raving about. Topsix players at this level can make that pass a lot of the time, just saying.

The knocks on Benson are substandard NHL speed, with scouts saying that.

By Bensons own account he has a whole lot to work on. Tick tick.

 

[Mr Sakich]

Much harder to play defence in a game with no structure.
I saw that Bouchard missed some reads but I am not too worried about it. As you said we need to see more in games that are more meaningful then the past 2 games.

I will say though that his skating seemed to look better to me especially his first couple of steps. Again though...I need to see a lot more to make sure what I saw yesterday was valid.

agreed. There was a one on two where the oiler forward drew both dmen to him. Out of nowhere, Bouchard skated in created an open chance. He was the fastest guy on the ice on that rush and it created a chance.

sometimes, I wonder if speed involves as much hockey sense as it does pure physical ability or form

 

[guymez]

agreed. There was a one on two where the oiler forward drew both dmen to him. Out of nowhere, Bouchard skated in created an open chance. He was the fastest guy on the ice on that rush and it created a chance.

sometimes, I wonder if speed involves as much hockey sense as it does pure physical ability or form

I remember that play...it was impressive.
Its too bad the players that were with him on that sequence didnt provide much of an option for Bouchard.

Regarding your last point....speed without smarts isnt very useful. Thankfully Bouchard is smart.
I am looking forward to seeing how he does in the last few games of Pre season and once the regular season starts. Seeing how his skating looks against NHL players and how his passing/vision/defensive reads translate when players are playing a more structured game.

 

[Fourier]

I read the Spector article. Contrary to what people might think I do full on researches on players. I know what Lowetide states, what coaches state, Woodcroft, his team mates etc. I've poured through it because Benson is a player of interest within the org. We need him to round out to be a useful NHL player.

Full on competitor? He got beat to the puck more times than I could count yesterday. He was guilty watching the play on several Flames rushes and not working hard to get back in the play.

I didn't see appreciable speed from him. I didn't see the two step acceleration people say he has to separate from opposition.

I do thank you for the reply. We'll see what happens. AT this level. What occurs at the AHL level is not a barometer for what occurs at this level.

Much of Bensons assists in the AHL, from what I gauge from highlights are due to having space out there. Much more time and space available in AHL than NHL. Yama has a lot of difficulty with this as well here. You just get closed down at this level without top speed and strength.

I see replays of Marody, Gambardelli beating people one on one, getting to the net after winning a key battle, and creating. Not seeing a lot of those big one on one plays with Benson. I'm seeing plays where the coverage is not so great and he connects a pass that is open.

Gamba for instance made a terrific play completely destroying his checker on the boards and coming to the net and scoring. Those plays, where you absolute own one on one, I lean to those.

I've seen the Benson "saucer pass" from last season most are raving about. Topsix players at this level can make that pass a lot of the time, just saying.

The knocks on Benson are substandard NHL speed, with scouts saying that.

By Bensons own account he has a whole lot to work on. Tick tick.

Being critical of how he played in these two games is your prerogative. But your description of the player is about 180 degrees opposite of what the people who are paid to judge him say about him continuously.

One aspect of your assessment I would take particular exception to is that he requires time and space to make plays. This is explicitly addressed in the article and is in fact the opposite of what he is known for.

 

[Drivesaitl]

He had 66 points in 68 games as a 20 year old.

Go check how often a 20 year old player is able to produce at that rate in the AHL. It doesnt happen that often at all and it seems to be a very good marker on how the player will be able to transition to the NHL.

10 AHL rookies produced at that rate or greater last season. Well technically. Albeit about 5 of them with appreciable games played. But that's part of the thing too. The AHL is a feeder league so there's a lot of players that impress so much, and so quickly that they don't stay down there long, or for even complete seasons. Because the cream rises to the top (NHL)
A lot of the rookie players that are not far off Bensons pace are also much better goal scorers. To wit Benson was only 24th in rookie goal scoring last season. just to say.

Which is why seasonal comparisons with AHL players should be taken with grain of salt appreciation on how man players have already transitioned to the show.

How many players in Bensons draft class already made the show?
Actually the answer is around 50. That already have NHL GP. Around 30-40 of the players are well onto their way to having NHL careers.

But unfortunately there are several clearly better players than Benson we left on the table when we picked him, which happens. But how could a Debrincat not be immediately evident?

 

[Fourier]

He had 66 points in 68 games as a 20 year old.

Go check how often a 20 year old player is able to produce at that rate in the AHL. It doesnt happen that often at all and it seems to be a very good marker on how the player will be able to transition to the NHL.

Ignoring games played he is tied for 25th all time in points by a 20 year old. He played a lot fewer games than most of the people ahead of him and 15 of 24 better totals happened before the turn of the century. Only Anisimov had more in the last decade.

This does not guarantee NHL success but it is important to put context to what he did.

 

[Raab]

Benson is the definition of meh prospect. I don’t get the hype. He’s most likely a guy who’s a 2nd/3rd line tweener. There’s very few top flight offensive talents that come out of the WHL because they don’t focus on individual skill as much as the OHL and QMJHL.

 

[guymez]

Ignoring games played he is tied for 25th all time in points by a 20 year old. He played a lot fewer games than most of the people ahead of him and 15 of 24 better totals happened before the turn of the century. Only Anisimov had more in the last decade.

This does not guarantee NHL success but it is important to put context to what he did.

Bensons AHL accomplishment is even more impressive than I thought.
Thanks for that.

 

[Drivesaitl]

Being critical of how he played in these two games is your prerogative. But your description of the player is about 180 degrees opposite of what the people who are paid to judge him say about him continuously.

One aspect of your assessment I would take particular exception to is that he requires time and space to make plays. This is explicitly addressed in the article and is in fact the opposite of what he is known for.

My barometer would lean more to shown, than known for. The comments about Benson in the article are of course opinions, not knowns in anycase. The opinions are not even fleshed out, or expanded on in the article.

His proving ground is all here. He's not doing the things he needs to do here, and has not yet in his career. I'll continue to watch and key on him. Hopefully one of these games he comes to play.

Even in the playoffs last season in the AHL Benson had half the games where he was shutout of the score sheet. He had one goal. Outside of a 3pt game he wasn't tilting things a whole lot even at the AHL level playoffs, against hard opponents.

 

[CornKicker]

Well I've had several people on this board tell me Benson is a better prospect than Gagner. How would anybody reconcile that view?

Gagner is a known commodity. Somebody that can some stuff on 2nd unit PP, handle some topsix minutes, bottomsix minutes, and be creative out there AT this level. Gagner can make plays and score goals at this level.

Theres no mystery in what I'm saying. Gagner IS a supporting offense player in the NHL. A guy that had 50pts in a recent season in spot use.

But I've seen 100 posts pencilling in Benson, automatically, on our topsix although its unclear why any NHL team would pencil him in there or people assume he could fit there. I'm not seeing it.

i think the difference is that Gagner has also proven to have defensive liabilities and while he does have the ability to supply secondary scoring he isnt someone you can play vs the other teams top lines. In my mind i have benson who has the potential to develop into a bonafide top 6 player and is smart enough and offensive enough to play in the top 6 (maybe not but should be given the chance if earned). but overall im putting both in my lineup over haas or nygard .

 

[Drivesaitl]

i think the difference is that Gagner has also proven to have defensive liabilities and while he does have the ability to supply secondary scoring he isnt someone you can play vs the other teams top lines. In my mind i have benson who has the potential to develop into a bonafide top 6 player and is smart enough and offensive enough to play in the top 6 (maybe not but should be given the chance if earned). but overall im putting both in my lineup over haas or nygard .

Its fair comment but Vet Gagner is stronger on his skates now and is 200lbs, better able to fight and protect the puck now. Gagner was in the league before his body was adequate size. Last 4seasons Gagner GA has been down from what it was and he's -10 collectively over that club and playing mostly on bad clubs. Indeed bad clubs contribute to a lot of Gagners bad +/- historically.

As early as still playing with the Oilers around 2012 Gagner had made improvements in all zone play.

 

[CornKicker]

Its fair comment but Vet Gagner is stronger on his skates now and is 200lbs, better able to fight and protect the puck now. Gagner was in the league before his body was adequate size. Last 4seasons Gagner GA has been down from what it was and he's -10 collectively over that club and playing mostly on bad clubs. Indeed bad clubs contribute to a lot of Gagners bad +/- historically.

As early as still playing with the Oilers around 2012 Gagner had made improvements in all zone play.

ok fair but where would you put gagner in the top 6? if you have presumably Neal/Kassian/Chiasson on the right side then you are asking gagner to play his off side because he isnt going to be playing C. I think benson is the best bet to take that LW spot and we are better off to have gagner either play C or RW on the bottom 2 lines. I also still firmly believe that we need to have gagner in the line up because he is valuable for any game that goes to a shootout.....i mean assuming drai and CMD dont rip 3v3 open already.

 

[Drivesaitl]

ok fair but where would you put gagner in the top 6? if you have presumably Neal/Kassian/Chiasson on the right side then you are asking gagner to play his off side because he isnt going to be playing C. I think benson is the best bet to take that LW spot and we are better off to have gagner either play C or RW on the bottom 2 lines. I also still firmly believe that we need to have gagner in the line up because he is valuable for any game that goes to a shootout.....i mean assuming drai and CMD dont rip 3v3 open already.

With the Oilers roster lines are not static as we don't have a bunch of wingers that can handle constant topsix. So you move them in and out. Gagner had near perfect usage by Torts (underrated coach) who used him in PP, and on topsix and bottomsix and who felt out where Gagner was in different games. When Gagner was really on, and he's streaky like a lot of players, Torts was seeing that and elevating him.

In anycase this not being unlike how the Oilers have utilized wingers like Maroon, Chiasson, etc. you rotate guys in and out. If Neal doesn't bounce back its pretty open as far as topsix wingers. I would be surprised if Chiasson is as good this season. Its pretty wide open on the wing. But its also why I expect a lot more enthusiasm in players battling for the spots. Should be fun to see.

 

[Senor Catface]

Well I've had several people on this board tell me Benson is a better prospect than Gagner. How would anybody reconcile that view?

Gagner is a known commodity. Somebody that can some stuff on 2nd unit PP, handle some topsix minutes, bottomsix minutes, and be creative out there AT this level. Gagner can make plays and score goals at this level.

Theres no mystery in what I'm saying. Gagner IS a supporting offense player in the NHL. A guy that had 50pts in a recent season in spot use.

But I've seen 100 posts pencilling in Benson, automatically, on our topsix although its unclear why any NHL team would pencil him in there or people assume he could fit there. I'm not seeing it.

Hey, it's anyone's prerogative to not like or enjoy any player. But as long as it's due to his play and not because a lot of posters are penciling him into the lineup at the expense of Sam Gagner. That's not a reasonable reason to dislike a player.