News Article: Oilers part ways with VP of Player Personnel Duane Sutter

[harpoon]

Ok, somebody post the Ken Holland McMahon backwards strut gif. That's if Howson is indeed staying.

I know you must realize this on some level ... but everyone whose head has ever gone on that gif has let us down. Is there a point where it becomes a jinx?

 

[MettleMcOiler]

I know you must realize this on some level ... but everyone whose head has ever gone on that gif has let us down. Is there a point where it becomes a jinx?

I think the difference is that in the past those GMs were undermined by the obc.
Can't be undermined if you start removing them.
Besides if Holland is a Legit GM compared to all the fakers that came before, then it doesn't matter what we paste his mug on.
He'll get the job done.

 

[Tobias Kahun]

Not at all. But like... How can you say a Dman is say a number 4 defender when you've literally never watched half the league play ever? In the very least every scout should have an idea of what every player is on every team. Does that mean watching all the games? No. We ofcourse should have at least one person watching any given game, but that doesn't need to be the same person. But all of those people should be able to tell you the depth chart of the entire league roughly.

That is extremely unrealistic.

 

[Oscar Acosta]

That is extremely unrealistic.

It is.

But at the same time there has to be a system in place, not by any one scout that can extrapolate data from NHL down to AJHL hockey that can project a player's future performance. You may not need to see every game, but you need to be able to analyze every player's statistical trend.

Hockey is in a hilariously dark age with this.

 

[Daryls Friend]

It is.

But at the same time there has to be a system in place, not by any one scout that can extrapolate data from NHL down to AJHL hockey that can project a player's future performance. You may not need to see every game, but you need to be able to analyze every player's statistical trend.

Hockey is in a hilariously dark age with this.

You have zero idea what data NHL teams look at. Or whats relevant for that matter

 

[Louis Cypher]

The pro scouting has been junk for years. Most of the trades/signings we've made have been mediocre at best and disastrous at worst.

Again fans living in denial that Edmonton is a great destination. Reality is we have only been picking from the scraps in most cases. Keep believing that every player dreams of playing for the Oilers if that makes your day.

 

[KeithIsActuallyBad]

Again fans living in denial that Edmonton is a great destination. Reality is we have only been picking from the scraps in most cases. Keep believing that every player dreams of playing for the Oilers if that makes your day.

I don't believe that.

That doesn't excuse the horrawful trades and the terrible pro scouting. Drake Cagguila for BRANDON MANNING? Eberle for Strome? Who thought these were good ideas?

 

[iCanada]

That is extremely unrealistic.

Is it? You're just a casual fan and I bet you know the NHL depth chart for like half the teams in the league.

How on earth can you possibly say that a guys talents will make him successful in a league if you dont even have a grasp on the talent level of the league? Why even bother scouting at that point? Thats like determining how much salary you're going to make when you have no idea the cost of living; doesn't matter if you see a job where you make 800k a year if you need to spend 850K to live. Doesn't matter if you have a guy who can skate ok-ish if everyone else in the league you want him to skate with skates faster.

 

[McDNicks17]

Having only one set of eyes on each team seems like a recipe for disaster especially when you've got dinosaurs like the scouts in Moneyball doing the watching.

 

[McFlash97]

Sutter was utter horsetrash. Useless POS.

 

[ThePhoenixx]

That is extremely unrealistic.

It really isn't. Watch a team three times and you have a pretty good idea what you are observing.

30 teams times 3 = 90 divide by two = 45.

Go to 45 games and you have a good idea what is going on.

So a scout grabs three games a week and he's seen every team three times in 15 weeks.

3-4 months in the season and it's done.

If he really bears down and goes to four games a week...

 

[Tobias Kahun]

It really isn't. Watch a team three times and you have a pretty good idea what you are observing.

30 teams times 3 = 90 divide by two = 45.

Go to 45 games and you have a good idea what is going on.

So a scout grabs three games a week and he's seen every team three times in 15 weeks.

3-4 months in the season and it's done.

If he really bears down and goes to four games a week...

To have a general idea of every player? Not unrealistic, to have any idea if they're a good fit or actually good? Unrealistic.

 

[ThePhoenixx]

To have a general idea of every player? Not unrealistic, to have any idea if they're a good fit or actually good? Unrealistic.

The point is that you have six scouts all doing the same thing. Then they get together in January, go over their notes and then go out and do it again. Then they have seen teams six times by the end off the season. Thinking of trading for someone? Send a few scouts for a number of games.

Then they all do it the next year and next year, etc.

That's why its important to have stability. After a few years your scouts really know their shit.

 

[Tobias Kahun]

The point is that you have six scouts all doing the same thing. Then they get together in January, go over their notes and then go out and do it again. Then they have seen teams six times by the end off the season. Thinking of trading for someone? Send a few scouts for a number of games.

Then they all do it the next year and next year, etc.

That's why its important to have stability. After a few years your scouts really know their ****.

Properly run scouting systems are alot more complex than what you're implying.

 

[ThePhoenixx]

Properly run scouting systems are alot more complex than what you're implying.

You need boots on the ground to go along with everything else.

 

[CycloneSweep]

You need boots on the ground to go along with everything else.

Scouting is usually team or player specific. I don't think any team in the league really scouts every single team. They target teams due to a variety of factors and put the boots on the ground based on that

 

[Louis Cypher]

I don't believe that.

That doesn't excuse the horrawful trades and the terrible pro scouting. Drake Cagguila for BRANDON MANNING? Eberle for Strome? Who thought these were good ideas?

Strome trade I liked. Ebs can GTF out. Manning was a FU to the organization as was Spooner.

 

[KeithIsActuallyBad]

Strome trade I liked. Ebs can GTF out. Manning was a FU to the organization as was Spooner.

Lol it was a stupid trade that turned into stupider trades.

Point is someone is scouting these awful players. Has nothing to do with Edmonton's undesirability as a city.

 

[iCanada]

Scouting is usually team or player specific. I don't think any team in the league really scouts every single team. They target teams due to a variety of factors and put the boots on the ground based on that

We ought to. In my mind scouting the whole League and fabricating ea sports style ratings on the entire league from a statistical and an eye test consideration from a large enough sample would be a huge advantage both in terms of player and asset management but also in terms of game prep.

We ought to have a scout at each NHL game. No salary cap on scouting, and you bet your ass you'd be able to find scouts willing to watch 82 games and do a write-up on each player. At a high level it doesn't need to be that accurate, you can hone in on things and have your trusted guys making the big bucks confirm things you're interested in. Shit, I bet this forum alone has hundreds of guys who'd jump to do a job like that for 50 to 60k a year. I'm sure you could find guys in any major Junior rink with experience and success scouting at that level to do a game a day for double that.

I think not scouting everyone you can is unnecessarily hampering yourself. Shouldn't have any reason not to have a guy at every game.

 

[CycloneSweep]

We ought to. In my mind scouting the whole League and fabricating ea sports style ratings on the entire league from a statistical and an eye test consideration from a large enough sample would be a huge advantage both in terms of player and asset management but also in terms of game prep.

We ought to have a scout at each NHL game. No salary cap on scouting, and you bet your ass you'd be able to find scouts willing to watch 82 games and do a write-up on each player. At a high level it doesn't need to be that accurate, you can hone in on things and have your trusted guys making the big bucks confirm things you're interested in. ****, I bet this forum alone has hundreds of guys who'd jump to do a job like that for 50 to 60k a year. I'm sure you could find guys in any major Junior rink with experience and success scouting at that level to do a game a day for double that.

I think not scouting everyone you can is unnecessarily hampering yourself. Shouldn't have any reason not to have a guy at every game.

Not a single NHL team does that or has the money to do that. The absolute cost of doing that is astronomical.

The good teams use advanced stats to pinpoint teams and players deserving of a look and scout based on that. No org has the money to do that. 50-60k a year wouldn't be worth the exhaustion the job would entail.

Wake up, fly to city, watch game, stay up late writing notes and scouting report to send in, sleep, fly, game.

You want good scouts not just lots of them

 

[iCanada]

Not a single NHL team does that or has the money to do that. The absolute cost of doing that is astronomical.

The good teams use advanced stats to pinpoint teams and players deserving of a look and scout based on that. No org has the money to do that. 50-60k a year wouldn't be worth the exhaustion the job would entail.

Wake up, fly to city, watch game, stay up late writing notes and scouting report to send in, sleep, fly, game.

You want good scouts not just lots of them

How is that astronomical in costs? Lol.

Pay fifteen guys 200k and if each one catches 82 games that's every game and you're only paying half of lucics salary. Double it for travel room and board at worst.

 

[CycloneSweep]

How is that astronomical in costs? Lol.

Pay fifteen guys 200k and if each one catches 82 games that's every game and you're only paying half of lucics salary. Double it for travel room and board at worst.

That's 6 million in scouts, you then need someone to comb thru scouting reports to make sense of them. You then need a few guys to go take closer looks. Then you need junior scouts. You are quickly approaching 10+ mill on scouting.

If a SINGLE NHL team did it, I would see use in it. Bit the fact that not a single team even employs that many pro scouts is a sign.

 

[Louis Cypher]

Lol it was a stupid trade that turned into stupider trades.

Point is someone is scouting these awful players. Has nothing to do with Edmonton's undesirability as a city.

Still rather Strome than Ebs or Gagner.

 

[ThePhoenixx]

How is that astronomical in costs? Lol.

Pay fifteen guys 200k and if each one catches 82 games that's every game and you're only paying half of lucics salary. Double it for travel room and board at worst.

I'd do it for a lot less than 200k!

 

[iCanada]

That's 6 million in scouts, you then need someone to comb thru scouting reports to make sense of them. You then need a few guys to go take closer looks. Then you need junior scouts. You are quickly approaching 10+ mill on scouting.

If a SINGLE NHL team did it, I would see use in it. Bit the fact that not a single team even employs that many pro scouts is a sign.

You're right. Better to have 6 million in Lucic.