News Article: Oilers part ways with VP of Player Personnel Duane Sutter

[KeithIsActuallyBad]

This kind of statements are so bizarre. So they dont watch all the teams?

Not to mention that some of these peoples job description isnt even a pro scout. Is the organization just too cheap to hire more professional and amateur scouts?

Judging from some of the recent trades (Manning, Petrovic etc), I really doubt these guys watched those players. Its seems like they based their opinion on the player a couple years ago (especially Petrovic) rather than the current version of the player.

The pro scouting has been junk for years. Most of the trades/signings we've made have been mediocre at best and disastrous at worst.

 

[herestohoping]

Well there’s 2500 games in a season. Seasons are 190 days long or so. So you want a guy watching 13 nhl games a day on average? Just rough math.

Teams play each other, so it'd be half that. That's still a hell of alot of hockey to watch.

 

[Tobias Kahun]

Teams play each other, so it'd be half that. That's still a hell of alot of hockey to watch.

This still 1271 "hours" if the game never paused and they never re watched any plays.

Not to mention it's better to scout in person where you can actually focus on a player or set of players.

 

[joestevens29]

13 x 60 at minimum a day just watching hockey games? Pretty unrealistic especially when they get a much better view watching them live.

Some people are just completely unrealistic.

What should be realistic is when your GM is looking to acquire a player from Team X, that you should be re-routing scouts to scout Player X.

Doesn't seem to far fetched that before you are making a decent size trade that we should've had numerous scouts looking at a Ryan Spooner.

 

[Tobias Kahun]

What should be realistic is when your GM is looking to acquire a player from Team X, that you should be re-routing scouts to scout Player X.

Doesn't seem to far fetched that before you are making a decent size trade that we should've had numerous scouts looking at a Ryan Spooner.

100%.

You would think if we were thinking about trading for even spooner, should of had all 2 of our pro scouts watching him. Not that I trust their eyes to scout properly, but that's what should happen IMO.

 

[joestevens29]

100%.

You would think if we were thinking about trading for even spooner, should of had all 2 of our pro scouts watching him. Not that I trust their eyes to scout properly, but that's what should happen IMO.

I do however think that like Manning, PC was going to trade for Spooner regardless of what people told him.

Which is fine in a deal like the Gagner one, where we weren't giving anything up of substance and were taking a shot on a guy rebounding. Just not when you are giving up something that actually brought something to your team.

 

[Aceboogie]

Well there’s 2500 games in a season. Seasons are 190 days long or so. So you want a guy watching 13 nhl games a day on average? Just rough math.

Not to mention, if your only watching the games once in real time, you are likely missing 60% of the plays (plays off the puck). So to get a true scouting report, youd need to rewatch alot of those games. So youd have to watch hockey pretty much all day, every day to achieve the level of scouting people on HF think actually happens.

I know full well every NHL pro scouting staff is not watching hockey nearly as much as people think they do

Which is again why teams investing in strong analytics departments will have a major competitive advantage. They fill in their blind spots

 

[CycloneSweep]

Not to mention, if your only watching the games once in real time, you are likely missing 60% of the plays (plays off the puck). So to get a true scouting report, youd need to rewatch alot of those games. So youd have to watch hockey pretty much all day, every day to achieve the level of scouting people on HF think actually happens.

I know full well every NHL pro scouting staff is not watching hockey nearly as much as people think they do

Which is again why teams investing in strong analytics departments will have a major competitive advantage. They fill in their blind spots

Scouts go where the GM or head of scouting has decided there are players of interest.

 

[Aceboogie]

Scouts go where the GM or head of scouting has decided there are players of interest.

Sure, and then watch one game in person, shoot the shit with other scouts, head back to the hotel- maybe watch some highlights and call it a night

Again, NHL teams probably legitimately evaluate 10% of all of the available events throughout an NHL season. Not only do they not watch every game, of the games they watch, they miss a ton of off puck plays (10 players on ice at a given time, no way a human can watch everything at one time). And even of the plays they watch and judge, if you have an inept/biased scout evaluating the play, their opinion is likely skewed

I could go into all of the issues with pro scouting (specifically with the Oilers) for a long time, but in summary format, I think the Oilers scouting is completely broken. The owner/POHO/GM all have similar biases about the game, they all think in similar ways. So they hire/keep on scouts that think also the same way. So Chiarelli/Tambo/Lowe would identify the wrong players to go scout, the scouts would then go and likely come away with positive reviews of that flawed player because they have the same train of thought as the GM. It is/was a massive echo chamber and thats why the Oilers have been horrendous at pro scouting

 

[CycloneSweep]

Sure, and then watch one game in person, shoot the **** with other scouts, head back to the hotel- maybe watch some highlights and call it a night

Again, NHL teams probably legitimately evaluate 10% of all of the available events throughout an NHL season. Not only do they not watch every game, of the games they watch, they miss a ton of off puck plays (10 players on ice at a given time, no way a human can watch everything at one time). And even of the plays they watch and judge, if you have an inept/biased scout evaluating the play, their opinion is likely skewed

I could go into all of the issues with pro scouting (specifically with the Oilers) for a long time, but in summary format, I think the Oilers scouting is completely broken. The owner/POHO/GM all have similar biases about the game, they all think in similar ways. So they hire/keep on scouts that think also the same way. So Chiarelli/Tambo/Lowe would identify the wrong players to go scout, the scouts would then go and likely come away with positive reviews of that flawed player because they have the same train of thought as the GM. It is/was a massive echo chamber and thats why the Oilers have been horrendous at pro scouting

Most good scouting departments tend to spend lots of times on teams with UFAs and RFAs that have expiring contracts. They look for guys that may be on the outs to keep the guys needing new contracts.

Like this past year Toronto, Tampa, Winnipeg should of all been heavily scouted. Then when Anaheim started going to shit they should of been a scouting target as well.

 

[edmoil3]

Scouts go where the GM or head of scouting has decided there are players of interest.

I’m very interested on how holland shapes his hockey ops. I think he will have more boots on the ground for sure

 

[Aceboogie]

I would personally like to look at having a hockey ops team that is stationed in Edmonton and has a control room where they have multiple games going and can rewind/isolate multiple games at once

I know old school scouts love watching hockey in person to get a feel for the speed of the game. But you have to think this is the worst way to watch hockey. I mean, once you miss a play- its over, you missed the chance the evaluate it. Watching hockey on TV is next best as atleast there is replays. But the best would have to be having on demand games where you can pause/rewind/get different angles

Personally, if I watch an Oiler game live, then go home and watch the recap on the Oilers website and rewatch all the plays and isolate in on different players- I come away with a totally different sense for the game. Players I thought were gliding/out of position from my live view were actually in good position when a different angle is shown. Or passes that should have been made but werent can be easily seen in replays, hard to see in real time though

I am sure scouts rewatch games/highlights. But Id rather have a team of them just based in one central spot. And they could actually then challenge eachother on different perceptions of players

 

[Kranix]

They should be hiring more Sutters not firing them!!!

 

[FlameChampion]

Sure, and then watch one game in person, shoot the **** with other scouts, head back to the hotel- maybe watch some highlights and call it a night

Again, NHL teams probably legitimately evaluate 10% of all of the available events throughout an NHL season. Not only do they not watch every game, of the games they watch, they miss a ton of off puck plays (10 players on ice at a given time, no way a human can watch everything at one time). And even of the plays they watch and judge, if you have an inept/biased scout evaluating the play, their opinion is likely skewed

I could go into all of the issues with pro scouting (specifically with the Oilers) for a long time, but in summary format, I think the Oilers scouting is completely broken. The owner/POHO/GM all have similar biases about the game, they all think in similar ways. So they hire/keep on scouts that think also the same way. So Chiarelli/Tambo/Lowe would identify the wrong players to go scout, the scouts would then go and likely come away with positive reviews of that flawed player because they have the same train of thought as the GM. It is/was a massive echo chamber and thats why the Oilers have been horrendous at pro scouting

I honestly think this happens alot. Some teams more than others, with ours obviously on the low end. I am sure there are lots of people putting in a lot of hours, but I honestly dont think they are working all that hard or working objectively. Combined with no analytics department, not enough actual scouts, and staff not really working all that hard and treating it more like a social event, its not going to amount to much success.

 

[edmoil3]

I would personally like to look at having a hockey ops team that is stationed in Edmonton and has a control room where they have multiple games going and can rewind/isolate multiple games at once

I know old school scouts love watching hockey in person to get a feel for the speed of the game. But you have to think this is the worst way to watch hockey. I mean, once you miss a play- its over, you missed the chance the evaluate it. Watching hockey on TV is next best as atleast there is replays. But the best would have to be having on demand games where you can pause/rewind/get different angles

Personally, if I watch an Oiler game live, then go home and watch the recap on the Oilers website and rewatch all the plays and isolate in on different players- I come away with a totally different sense for the game. Players I thought were gliding/out of position from my live view were actually in good position when a different angle is shown. Or passes that should have been made but werent can be easily seen in replays, hard to see in real time though

I am sure scouts rewatch games/highlights. But Id rather have a team of them just based in one central spot. And they could actually then challenge eachother on different perceptions of players

They all have iPads pros and laptops with games at their disposal

 

[5 Mins 4 Ftg]

I would personally like to look at having a hockey ops team that is stationed in Edmonton and has a control room where they have multiple games going and can rewind/isolate multiple games at once

I know old school scouts love watching hockey in person to get a feel for the speed of the game. But you have to think this is the worst way to watch hockey. I mean, once you miss a play- its over, you missed the chance the evaluate it. Watching hockey on TV is next best as atleast there is replays. But the best would have to be having on demand games where you can pause/rewind/get different angles

Personally, if I watch an Oiler game live, then go home and watch the recap on the Oilers website and rewatch all the plays and isolate in on different players- I come away with a totally different sense for the game. Players I thought were gliding/out of position from my live view were actually in good position when a different angle is shown. Or passes that should have been made but werent can be easily seen in replays, hard to see in real time though

I am sure scouts rewatch games/highlights. But Id rather have a team of them just based in one central spot. And they could actually then challenge eachother on different perceptions of players

Arizona does this and I think Carolina and Ottawa do a lot of this as a cost savings measure.

But nothing beats watching a game live. You get a much better sense of gap control, pace, skating, plus there are things you don't see on camera. Scouting departments also watch a shit ton of tape on players.

 

[CycloneSweep]

They should be hiring more Sutters not firing them!!!

The Sutter we had did a terrible job...so nah...fire his ass.

 

[Tobias Kahun]

I have been in business for over 30 years and in that time I have seen endless re-organizations and sweeping changes. Is it a matter of just appeasing some fans. Under the OEG umbrella what is the most important thing? Oilers winning and realizing that they need a new image--me thinks so.

Oilers as a business are successful though, so I don't know if your analogy works.

 

[KeithIsActuallyBad]

Oilers as a business are successful though, so I don't know if your analogy works.

What exactly are you basing this on?

 

[Tobias Kahun]

What exactly are you basing this on?

The fact they're making money? The fact they got an arena built.

There's a difference between being a successful business and being a successful hockey team.

 

[KeithIsActuallyBad]

The fact they're making money? The fact they got an arena built.

There's a difference between being a successful business and being a successful hockey team.

A successful business would see playoff revenue, not empty seats.

Connor McDavid makes them a "successful" business. And sometimes even that isn't enough.

 

[KenLinsemanFanClub]

They should be hiring more Sutters not firing them!!!

Is that you ManDog?

 

[joestevens29]

The fact they're making money? The fact they got an arena built.

There's a difference between being a successful business and being a successful hockey team.

Pretty much this. As long as we are making money the team is successful from a business standpoint.

 

[CycloneSweep]

Pretty much this. As long as we are making money the team is successful from a business standpoint.

The Oilers bring in 21m a year more than they spend. 25 teams turn a profit, and 12 teams make more profit than the Oilers.

Now of course making the playoffs would boost revenue but we are a successful business.

The Panthers are actually the worst off. They bring in 21 mill less than they spend

 

[iCanada]

Are you really expecting every pro scout to literally watch every hockey game?

Do you know how many hours are in a day?

Talk about unrealistic

Not at all. But like... How can you say a Dman is say a number 4 defender when you've literally never watched half the league play ever? In the very least every scout should have an idea of what every player is on every team. Does that mean watching all the games? No. We ofcourse should have at least one person watching any given game, but that doesn't need to be the same person. But all of those people should be able to tell you the depth chart of the entire league roughly.