OHL - Realignment

DominicT

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Sep 6, 2009
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Took part in the media press conference with Dave Branch and company. Branch says that the issues with the Erie Otters and a possible move to Hamilton are non existent. Brampton has moved to North Bay, and there are no discussion or plans for expansion.

So realignment, whether a tweak or a major re-shape will take place for next season in most people's minds.

Here's my take http://ohlwriters.com/articles/ohl-a-look-at-possible-realignment

Thoughts?
 

nosl

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May 14, 2007
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Before I comment, I believe teams in the OHL have the best travel arrangements of the three major junior leagues (LHJMQ, WHL). Anyone who complains about having to travel North for a three game set this year, they can take the time to examine the other two leagues travel schedules.

While in theory I like the idea of a Northern division, in my opinion, I think this format penalizes Sudbury, North Bay, Barrie & Owen Sound.

This format takes away three very short divisional road trips (Guelph, Kitchener, London) away from Owen Sound and giving them back one (Barrie). This also takes away regular exposure of the league's smallest market in two of the markets with the highest fan support. I'm not certain how you sell this to the fans & the ownership of l'Attaque.

Sudbury & North Bay would be deprived relatively modest trips in Eastern Ontario in exchange for extremely long trips in Southwestern Ontario & in Michigan (which requires having to cross the border more often).

No matter the division, Sault-Ste-Marie will be isolated (relatively in perspective) from the rest of the OHL's markets (excluding Sudbury, Saginaw & North Bay to a degree).

In my opinion though, Barrie is by far penalized the worst in terms of travel costs associated with this proposed format. They would go from having a relatively close driving distances for road games in Mississauga, Niagara, Peterborough, Belleville, Guelph & Kitchener to having next to none under this format.

From my perspective, the league would be best to adopt this format:

  • Belleville
  • Kingston
  • Oshawa
  • Ottawa
  • Peterborough

  • Barrie
  • Mississauga
  • North Bay
  • Owen Sound
  • Sudbury

  • Erie
  • Guelph
  • Kitchener
  • London
  • Niagara

  • Plymouth
  • Saginaw
  • Sarnia
  • Sault-Ste-Marie
  • Windsor

Again though, how you would sell this to Owen Sound is beyond me...
 
Last edited:

DominicT

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Again though, how you would sell this to Owen Sound is beyond me...

I like your format. That said, there will always be at least one team that won't be happy with realignment and where they are "stuck". This will be interesting to see played out.

But as you said, they should sit back and look at how their cousins in the Dub or Q have to travel before complaining about a road trip in the O.
 

krazy kanuck

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Dec 24, 2008
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I'm not sure how either of the proposals documented here actually improves anything on the whole, it just shifts the pain. Right now, there isn't true divisional scheduling anyway (Barrie plays Owen Sound more than any Eastern Conference team) so I'm not sure the alignment matters all that much.

The nosl proposal seems more reasonable than the Dom one. I don't know how you sell that additional travel to Barrie, Owen Sound or SSM. Especially SSM and Owen Sound. It's a long bloody way from SSM to Owen Sound - much longer than to Windsor, Sarnia, or Saginaw or Plymouth. Also for SSM, it's on dodgier roads than the interstates. That may end up being the longest trip in the entire OHL. I think you would be dramatically increasing he overall league travel if you moved to your model.

Also, every major sports league in North America has moved from a divisional playoff structure to a conference playoff structure. It's been done to increase fairness in who has an opportunity to make the playoffs. Not sure why the OHL would want to move backwards.
 

krazy kanuck

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Dec 24, 2008
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I just checked it out, and SSM to Owen Sound is technically the fourth longest trip in the OHL. Realistically it's the second longest though (behind Ottawa - SSM) because both Plymouth-Ottawa and Saginaw-Ottawa on are much, much better roads (401/Interstates) than the Owen Sound-SSM trip. I don't see any way the league goes increases that trip.
 

EON

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I'm not sure how either of the proposals documented here actually improves anything on the whole, it just shifts the pain. Right now, there isn't true divisional scheduling anyway (Barrie plays Owen Sound more than any Eastern Conference team) so I'm not sure the alignment matters all that much.

The nosl proposal seems more reasonable than the Dom one. I don't know how you sell that additional travel to Barrie, Owen Sound or SSM. Especially SSM and Owen Sound. It's a long bloody way from SSM to Owen Sound - much longer than to Windsor, Sarnia, or Saginaw or Plymouth. Also for SSM, it's on dodgier roads than the interstates. That may end up being the longest trip in the entire OHL. I think you would be dramatically increasing he overall league travel if you moved to your model.

Also, every major sports league in North America has moved from a divisional playoff structure to a conference playoff structure. It's been done to increase fairness in who has an opportunity to make the playoffs. Not sure why the OHL would want to move backwards.

As the NHL moves to a divisional playoff structure......
 

EON

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Fair point, but the NHL are a bunch of @-- hats...that's why I'm a junior hockey fan.

I agree, the NHL is the greatest league in the world run by the dumbest people in the world. This new goalie pad decrease/shallower nets rules are so stupid, I really hope the OHL doesnt adopt them. I do hope the OHL sticks to conference playoffs, seems more fair to me. I'm not sure about realignment. Because of how far away SSM is from everyone its kinda tough to group them in anywhere. IMO we should leave it as it is.
 

nosl

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May 14, 2007
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Longest five trips in the OHL (on distance):
  • Sault-Ste-Marie to Erie (971 km)
  • Sault-Ste-Marie to Kingston (931 km)
  • Ottawa to Saginaw (895 km)
  • Sault-Ste-Marie to Belleville (855 km)
  • Ottawa to Plymouth (851 km)

Longest trip in la LHJMQ (on distance):
  • Rouyn-Noranda to Sydney (2066 km)

Longest trip in the WHL (on distance):
  • Brandon to Portland (2152 km)

The other thing that OHL teams, owners & fans have going for themselves is they never have to worry about crossing timezones unless they compete in the Memorial Cup.
 

NTDP

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Dec 20, 2010
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I think they should leave the league as is, with the same divisions/conferences, and the same playoff structure. I have a lot of respect for those kids in the Dub, the way they have to travel hours upon hours across the flat terrain of Alberta/Saskatchewan. I might be wrong, but it heard that the closest road game for the Prince George Cougars is 6 hours away. You can see examples of it in last years Road to the Memorial Cup series that followed the Blades throughout their season.
 

OMG67

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Sep 1, 2013
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I don't understand what the big issue is with the current alignment. Regardless of any potential alignment changes, you would have to think the east and West divisions would remain untouched. That leaves only the Mid-West and Central.

There is no balanced schedule now and there never will be. That unbalanced schedule allows for teams that are "seemingly" in the wrong division/conference to play additional games out of division/conference to help with travel issues. So, really, what is the big deal? Regardless of what they do with divisional alignments, there will always be significant concessions made in regards to geographical factors that would eliminate the true nature of divisions and conferences with respect to a balanced schedule. This alone makes the conversation virtually meaningless.

The outlying teams will always get the short end of the stick with the longer trips even within their divisions. These teams have accepted that. Why not just move on?
 

krazy kanuck

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Dec 24, 2008
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Longest five trips in the OHL (on distance):

I was speaking about the 5 longest trips based on time, not distance. That's really what's important when you're talking about kids missing school. Having said that, the SSM-Erie and SSM Belleville would still be longer, I missed those. The Erie trip would likely take less time in the winter though. The roads you take from SSM to Owen Sound are terrible in the winter (as opposed to the interstates).

The other thing that OHL teams, owners & fans have going for themselves is they never have to worry about crossing timezones unless they compete in the Memorial Cup.

Nobody is comparing the OHL travel to either the QMJHL or the WHL. Though both those leagues did it to themselves with expansion to other jurisdictions...they both had much easier travel before moving into the Atlantic Canada and the NW USA respectively.

P.S. - It is a benefit to having the most concentrated hockey playing population on the planet - concentrated population means less travel. It's also no coincidence that the vast majority of the best players in the world come from Ontario and Southern Quebec. I've noticed a real drop in talent now that I've moved West, watching the WHL compared to the OHL.
 

krazy kanuck

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I don't understand what the big issue is with the current alignment. Regardless of any potential alignment changes, you would have to think the east and West divisions would remain untouched. That leaves only the Mid-West and Central.

There is no balanced schedule now and there never will be. That unbalanced schedule allows for teams that are "seemingly" in the wrong division/conference to play additional games out of division/conference to help with travel issues. So, really, what is the big deal? Regardless of what they do with divisional alignments, there will always be significant concessions made in regards to geographical factors that would eliminate the true nature of divisions and conferences with respect to a balanced schedule. This alone makes the conversation virtually meaningless.

The outlying teams will always get the short end of the stick with the longer trips even within their divisions. These teams have accepted that. Why not just move on?

:handclap:
 

Whalers Fan

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Sep 24, 2012
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Moving the Soo out of the West makes little sense to me. Right now all their division rivals can be reached via Interstate roads, which makes for much easier travel in the winter. It's only five hours from the Soo to Plymouth, not including border crossing time and bad weather.

The current alignment and playoff structure works as well as anything else that could be put together. I see no reason to attempt to fix something that's not broken.
 

frontsfan2005

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Mar 26, 2006
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I'll take a shot at realignment:

Eastern Conference

East Division

Belleville
Kingston
Oshawa
Ottawa
Peterborough

* Remains exactly the same, the five most Eastern teams in the league

Central

Erie
Guelph
Kitchener
Mississauga
Niagara

*Erie should be with Niagara, I might be wrong but isn't St. Catharines the closest OHL city to Erie, yet they are currently in different conferences? Kitchener and Guelph will always be in the same division, they won't be split up, and Mississauga isn't too far away from those cities.

Western Conference

North

Barrie
North Bay
Owen Sound
Sault Ste. Marie
Sudbury

*Barrie and Owen Sound obviously not happy with this alignment, however, they are the five most Northern cities in the new Western Conference.

West

London
Plymouth
Saginaw
Sarnia
Windsor

*London and Windsor re-unite in the same division, all those cities are pretty close together.

I think the league will only do a minor tweak, it does seem that the Otters will stay in Erie, but don't the Steelheads have some sort of an out clause if attendance doesn't pick up by the end of next season? If they did move, where to? Cornwall? Hamilton? Buffalo? (I do think the league wants to be in NY State sooner rather than later...) A move to Hamilton or Buffalo would keep these proposed divisions the same, while a move to Cornwall would bump the Generals out of the East and into the Central.
 

HLLYWD99

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Mar 8, 2011
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Owen Sound is located in the southwestern part of the province and road trips to Sudbury, North Bay and the Sault would be brutally long and expensive, and highly doubt that the Attack ownership and fan base would accept leaving the best division in the entire CHL.

IF IT AIN'T BROKE DON'T FIX IT!
 

mouse 29

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Apr 11, 2013
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I agree no need to change it. However if a change is inevitable why not put NB in the east with Ottawa etc, and move Oshawa into the central with Barrie etc.
 

frontsfan2005

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Mar 26, 2006
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Owen Sound is located in the southwestern part of the province and road trips to Sudbury, North Bay and the Sault would be brutally long and expensive, and highly doubt that the Attack ownership and fan base would accept leaving the best division in the entire CHL.

IF IT AIN'T BROKE DON'T FIX IT!

Yes, Owen Sound is in the Southwestern part of the province, the problem is there is three Ontario cities, London, Sarnia and Windsor that are more "southwestern" than Owen Sound, plus two OHL cities west of Ontario, Plymouth and Saginaw in Michigan. I do agree that "if it ain't broke don't fix it", the problem is the current format is broken. What sense does it make to have Owen Sound in the same division as Erie, while Niagara is in a different conference? I do think the OHL will only do a minor tweak, possibly move Erie to the Central, and Barrie or Mississauga to the Midwest.

I agree no need to change it. However if a change is inevitable why not put NB in the east with Ottawa etc, and move Oshawa into the central with Barrie etc.

The OHL won't separate North Bay and Sudbury.
 

krazy kanuck

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Dec 24, 2008
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*Barrie and Owen Sound obviously not happy with this alignment, however, they are the five most Northern cities in the new Western Conference.

It can't just be about distance North, it has to be about distance to the other cities (i.e. Ottawa is further North than Barrie or Owen Sound). Saginaw and Plymouth are shorter drives to SSM than either Barrie or Owen Sound. Plus there are already established rivalries...not sure why anyone would want to change it.
 

Mightygoose

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Nov 5, 2012
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I don't see the need to realign either. The ony significant change that took place was Brampton moving to North Bay and staying in the Central makes sense.

Erie is the only team I can see would want this to be in the same division as Niagara for expample. Since Niagara has been in their location since 2007, not sure why this would come up now.
 

OMG67

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Sep 1, 2013
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A lot of people look at this topic from a bookends perspective as in how long is the longest division drive? Let's look at two of the teams that seem to cause a problem...Erie and SSM...

SSM closest team is Sudbury at 308km. Currently they are in opposing conferences. They play each other SIX times rather than the typical TWO.
North Bay 436km
Barrie 594km
Owen Sound 685km

How does their current division look?
Saginaw 400km
Sarnia 565km
Plymouth 549km
Windsor 568km

If we were to only look at the one way aspect of the distances, we would say that either of these proposals is fine because the relative distances between cities is fine. However, farther reaching OHL teams do not do one night road trips too often. If we look at SSM schedule this season we see only three games where they drive to one rink and then turn around and head home right after (Sudbury 2 and North Bay 1).

Brian Kilrea always said that he didn't care about how long it took to get somewhere. His only concern was the distance travelled between those rinks once he got there. This means that if he makes a trip to Windsor, he wants to hit Plymouth and London (for example) while he is there because those distances are relatively short. Once SSM hits Saginaw, it is only about 160km to each of the other teams. That is less than two hours. It is still a 3 hour drive from Sudbury to Barrie and close to 5 hours to Owen Sound. So under the proposed Northern Division, when SSM does a road trip (inter-division), they need to travel all over the place EVERY GAME!

Now, let's look at Erie. Their closest team is Niagara at 200km. Even though they are in opposing conferences, they play each other SIX times instead of the normal TWO. Their current division:
Owen Sound 459km
Guelph 305km
Kitchener 322km
London 385km
**Only six games with a single day turnaround.

Owen Sound may be a little far on a one way trip but once they get to Guelph, they are 32-130km away from each of the other teams. For a road trip, that is pretty easy.

North Bay's furthest current division rival is Niagara at 441km. That isn't all that far when you consider Ottawa has to travel 400km to Oshawa. They are only 350km to Mississauga which can be used as a travel hub for road trips. If they were to go to a Northern Division, Barrie and Sudbury remain unchanged but...
SSM 436km
Owen Sound 353km
...neither being any better than what they already face and then also consider the remote locations of both of those teams with proximity to other teams for road trips and it becomes way worse as an option.

I think this whole concept of realignment is hogwash. Erie and SSM already play their closest rival SIX times even though they are outside conference. It would only add the potential of two additional games if they were inter-division. North Bay doesn't have a better division option than they already have. So, really, what is the conversation really about?
 

frontsfan2005

Registered User
Mar 26, 2006
789
260
Ontario, Canada
A lot of people look at this topic from a bookends perspective as in how long is the longest division drive? Let's look at two of the teams that seem to cause a problem...Erie and SSM...

SSM closest team is Sudbury at 308km. Currently they are in opposing conferences. They play each other SIX times rather than the typical TWO.
North Bay 436km
Barrie 594km
Owen Sound 685km

How does their current division look?
Saginaw 400km
Sarnia 565km
Plymouth 549km
Windsor 568km

If we were to only look at the one way aspect of the distances, we would say that either of these proposals is fine because the relative distances between cities is fine. However, farther reaching OHL teams do not do one night road trips too often. If we look at SSM schedule this season we see only three games where they drive to one rink and then turn around and head home right after (Sudbury 2 and North Bay 1).

Brian Kilrea always said that he didn't care about how long it took to get somewhere. His only concern was the distance travelled between those rinks once he got there. This means that if he makes a trip to Windsor, he wants to hit Plymouth and London (for example) while he is there because those distances are relatively short. Once SSM hits Saginaw, it is only about 160km to each of the other teams. That is less than two hours. It is still a 3 hour drive from Sudbury to Barrie and close to 5 hours to Owen Sound. So under the proposed Northern Division, when SSM does a road trip (inter-division), they need to travel all over the place EVERY GAME!

Now, let's look at Erie. Their closest team is Niagara at 200km. Even though they are in opposing conferences, they play each other SIX times instead of the normal TWO. Their current division:
Owen Sound 459km
Guelph 305km
Kitchener 322km
London 385km
**Only six games with a single day turnaround.

Owen Sound may be a little far on a one way trip but once they get to Guelph, they are 32-130km away from each of the other teams. For a road trip, that is pretty easy.

North Bay's furthest current division rival is Niagara at 441km. That isn't all that far when you consider Ottawa has to travel 400km to Oshawa. They are only 350km to Mississauga which can be used as a travel hub for road trips. If they were to go to a Northern Division, Barrie and Sudbury remain unchanged but...
SSM 436km
Owen Sound 353km
...neither being any better than what they already face and then also consider the remote locations of both of those teams with proximity to other teams for road trips and it becomes way worse as an option.

I think this whole concept of realignment is hogwash. Erie and SSM already play their closest rival SIX times even though they are outside conference. It would only add the potential of two additional games if they were inter-division. North Bay doesn't have a better division option than they already have. So, really, what is the conversation really about?

Don't you think it's pretty stupid that Erie and Niagara play six times a year yet are in different conferences? The OHL could solve this by placing them together in the Central, and move the Colts/Steelheads to the Midwest. I think the reason they didn't push this before is the Otters future looked uncertain in Erie until recently. Why realign when the team was rumoured to be going to North Bay, Cornwall or Hamilton, then have to do another realignment?
 

OMG67

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Sep 1, 2013
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Don't you think it's pretty stupid that Erie and Niagara play six times a year yet are in different conferences? The OHL could solve this by placing them together in the Central, and move the Colts/Steelheads to the Midwest. I think the reason they didn't push this before is the Otters future looked uncertain in Erie until recently. Why realign when the team was rumoured to be going to North Bay, Cornwall or Hamilton, then have to do another realignment?

Why have SSM and Sudbury play 6 times in opposing conferences? That has been the case for many years.

The Colts going Mid-West is sort of dumb since they are the midway team for North Bay and Sudbury. I could understand Missy moving but then Erie would have to play against Sudbury and North Bay only for the purpose of justifying the 6 games out of conference they play against Niagara? For real? That isn't too bright either.

There is no combination of realignments that make sense. Every time you try to match up two teams that are seemingly close together, they end up playing the other games against teams so much further away for the rest of their division/conference....the net effect is less than zero.
 

mouse 29

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Apr 11, 2013
778
2
Barrie
Barrie plays Owen Sound 6 times a year, a point that was discussed last year when we only played Belleville twice. Also if I am not mistaken SSM plays Sudbury 6 times. Not sure if any other teams play inter conference play this many times
 

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