OT: Official Scoring problems thread and solutions

Jimson Hogarth*

Registered User
Nov 21, 2013
12,858
3
No, never JJ. He's terribad.

People get on Edler right now, but there would be a pitchfork mob out for JJ in VAN.

Maybe, but I think that some people suffer from the same mentality that led to this management team undervaluing Ehrhoff. People underestimated what Ehrhoff brought to the teams break out and transition games because he had some defensive warts and wasn't physical. There are very few offensive PMD's that are flawless players at every facet of the game.

I'd be willing to make the coaching staff work hard at match ups if it means bringing in elite offensive talent on the back end.

Edit: Maybe JJ isn't the guy, but I think we should be careful not to fall into a trap where we dismiss certain players because they don't bring a perfectly well rounded game. Remember, we have 5 twins on the blue line that all play that wonderful well rounded game.
 

Wetcoaster

Guest
Remember what Tortorella had to say about offence when he was hired?

"The Sedins, when you watch them on tape, there is nothing going on and bang, there's a goal. They make something out of nothing. I think we have some quality offensive people, but the thing that stuck out to me is I just don't think they're a hard enough team to play against. And I'm not trying to criticize because the organization has been successful. They have been and they've got some really good people here, I can see that, but for you to sustain over an 82-game schedule and try to get to where you want to be in the playoffs and go where everybody wants to go, it just can't be passing plays and off the rush.

"Everybody is talking about creating offense. Everybody wants more offense and these tic-tac-toe plays. Yeah, that's great to get a few of those here and there, but it just doesn't happen that often. That's where I see a little bit of a weakness in this club as far as sustaining their straight-up forecheck, holding onto pucks and the grind of the game.​
http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=682765
 

y2kcanucks

Le Sex God
Aug 3, 2006
71,229
10,319
Surrey, BC
There are rumours that Jack Johnson might be available. He has his warts but I wonder if on a defence as "deep" as the Canucks the coaching staff would be able to hide him a bit against tougher match ups.

Jack Johnson is absolutely horrible. Quite possibly the worst defenseman in his own zone in the entire NHL.
 

vector209

Registered User
Jan 7, 2012
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0
Los Angeles, CA
Why would anyone want Jack Johnson here? People realize the problem is offense, right? And if it wasn't then be prepared to have more goals scored against as a result of that liability in the D zone.
 

vadim sharifijanov

Registered User
Oct 10, 2007
28,585
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sure jack johnson is terrible defensively, and also not a standout offensively, but i say let's do it. brian burke would be so jealous.
 

Bleach Clean

Registered User
Aug 9, 2006
26,997
6,572
Maybe, but I think that some people suffer from the same mentality that led to this management team undervaluing Ehrhoff. People underestimated what Ehrhoff brought to the teams break out and transition games because he had some defensive warts and wasn't physical. There are very few offensive PMD's that are flawless players at every facet of the game.

I'd be willing to make the coaching staff work hard at match ups if it means bringing in elite offensive talent on the back end.

Edit: Maybe JJ isn't the guy, but I think we should be careful not to fall into a trap where we dismiss certain players because they don't bring a perfectly well rounded game. Remember, we have 5 twins on the blue line that all play that wonderful well rounded game.



I'm dismissing him because he's a terrible PMD. There are good PMDs and bad ones, and everything in between. He's on the lower end on the scale.

Ehrhoff was/is a smart PMD. Smarter than most in his own zone. He's just a complete wuss IMO, and gives up too much in the corners. JJ is a dumb PMD. Reacting more impulse than reasoning. Totally different animal.
 

Jimson Hogarth*

Registered User
Nov 21, 2013
12,858
3
I'm dismissing him because he's a terrible PMD. There are good PMDs and bad ones, and everything in between. He's on the lower end on the scale.

Ehrhoff was/is a smart PMD. Smarter than most in his own zone. He's just a complete wuss IMO, and gives up too much in the corners. JJ is a dumb PMD. Reacting more impulse than reasoning. Totally different animal.

Ok, clearly people are less than enamoured with JJ, which is more than fair. But like I said, I think people fall into the type of thinking that landed the Canucks 5 "well rounded" twins on the blue line...

If people truly want more offence and a better PP then it may just be that we have to accept some flawed players. Its up to the coaching staff to get those kinds of players against the right competition.
 

Wetcoaster

Guest
I think scoring problems have morphed into a scoring black hole.

Henrik Sedin (goalless in 15 games before sustaining a rib injury last week), Daniel Sedin (no goals in 11 games), Ryan Kesler (one in eight games), Alex Burrows (none in 20), Chris Higgins (one in seven), Jannik Hansen (none in 11) and Booth (no goals in 13 games).

Here is what Jannik Hansen had to say about the lack of scoring:

“We don’t need one or two chances to score a goal; we need five or six or seven and that’s what’s hurting us,†Hansen said Thursday night.

“It’s the same core group that has been here for a long time, and we did not have trouble scoring goals two, three, four years ago, so we don’t know what it is that has crept in.

“But somehow it’s getting harder to get those goals. We can’t blame post-and-out (bad luck) when it’s years in the making. It’s not a freak couple of weeks; it has been a while now and it’s something we have to work on.â€​
http://www.vancouversun.com/sports/...tyre+Clamour+Prospal+shows/9428469/story.html
 

BobbyJazzLegs

Sorry 4 Acting Werd
Oct 15, 2013
3,393
4
I still think that once Burrows gets going, things will start to fall into place a bit. Although I do think we could still use scoring on top of that, I do think we'll see a shift upwards in the production.

I do think Tortorella needs to allow the Sedins to go with who they are most comfortable and produce the most with... without a doubt that's Burrows.

Kesler and Kassian seem to be making up a decent second line with Higgins.

Add in a slight improvement from the powerplay also, and we're probably talking a little less about this. Right now everything that could be going wrong is. There really isn't one player that is performing very well, except for maybe Higgins... Kassian has improved a bit as well.

I think once one of those three things (Burrows starts scoring, Sedin Line starts clicking, PP improves slightly), you'll see the other 2 start to improve as well and this will help our overall output of goals.


..... or it keeps going the way it is for the rest of the season. I can't help but begin to think that with everyone on a downward trend that it has a lot to do with Tortorella's system.

I like what you're saying, but you have to wonder why we were scoring earlier in the year.
 

David71

Registered User
Dec 27, 2008
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vancouver
Is this a process??

Jeff Paterson ‏@patersonjeff
#Canucks Gillis on low-scoring games in #NHL: 'we haven't adapted to this methodology of scoring goals as well as we should have.'

wtf?:shakehead UMM hello gillis. you're the problem. team hasnt been good at scoring for 3 years now.. sedins are clearly old, not alot of 1 shot scorers on this team. NOBODY on the nucks can dangle and snipe.
 

Bleach Clean

Registered User
Aug 9, 2006
26,997
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Ok, clearly people are less than enamoured with JJ, which is more than fair. But like I said, I think people fall into the type of thinking that landed the Canucks 5 "well rounded" twins on the blue line...

If people truly want more offence and a better PP then it may just be that we have to accept some flawed players. Its up to the coaching staff to get those kinds of players against the right competition.



Flawed players is fine. Atrocious players are not. Just speaking for myself, I'm not accepting the atrocious player. Del Zotto, for instance, is a fine PMD that is flawed defensively. He'd have made for a good gamble, prior history with Torts as well.

Personally, I don't think having 5 well rounded Dmen is a trap. It's not ideal, but it could be far, far worse. That said, when getting that last complimentary PMD, at the expense of perhaps one of those Dmen, means that this PMD better be really good. Beyond that, it's just about picking the right one. Not just anyone will do...
 

vanuck

Now with 100% less Benning!
Dec 28, 2009
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I'm going to go ahead and quote what I said in another thread about the Sedins' numbers:

The simplest explanation I have is that there are a combination of factors contributing to their current numbers. PP being only one of them.

To put that in a little more detail, basically the level of competition they're facing now at 5on5 - compared to when the Twins were putting up 90-100 points - is not the same.

So to me there's more to it than simply what's going on at the surface by looking at point totals.

To expand on that just a bit more, the Twins were facing some pretty darn soft competition in 2009-10 and 2010-11 (for both years they were 9th and 10th in Corsi_Rel QoC among regular forwards who played here for most of the year). The 1st year was when Kesler took on the toughest matchups, and in the 2nd it was - as we all know - Manny who did that.

And opendoor has brought this up before: in terms of raw numbers the last couple of seasons have seen the highest Corsi_Rel QoC steadily go up as teams in the West are getting stronger. What Malhotra faced in 10/11 (0.615, which led the team) would have ranked 3rd amongst Canucks' forwards a year later, and 5th the year after that. This year it would only be 7th. :help:

Of course, this is not to say the PP hasn't been a problem either because it has (in terms of conversion, at least). But 5on5 roles have changed and that's because the Canucks no longer have a 3rd line center who can either:
A) take on and saw off those hard matchups which frees up the Sedins/Kesler, or​
B) actually take advantage of the relatively softer competition they'd have been facing.​

Right now Richardson does neither in the spot he's played in, and I think most people will agree that he's not an ideal 3C despite what some thought at the beginning of the season. IMO that's why they're actively going after a top 9 C which I agree with. This is made even more crucial by Henrik's rib injury and the fact that Santorelli is expected to be out "a long time".

To me the story remains the same as it ever has: forward depth - particularly at center - has been and still is an issue, though it's too bad we haven't gotten to see how they'd do when everyone's healthy. It's the one constant that has showed to be the most glaring issue in the past 2 playoffs, despite what some here would have you think.
 

Addison Rae

Registered User
Jun 2, 2009
58,532
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Vancouver
The Sedins production has fallen off a cliff since they signed their monster contracts. Our offense was weak as it is, but now that the Sedins are showing us their playoff form we're getting our playoff offensive results in the regular season.

Over the last 5 playoffs the Sedins have scored at a near PPG pace, what are you talking about?

Good post Vanuck I agree wholeheartedly, to also elaborate on your point they've started nearly 15% fewer shifts in the offensive zone. Yes their production has gone down, but they're much better two-way players now.
 

vanuck

Now with 100% less Benning!
Dec 28, 2009
16,797
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Good post Vanuck I agree wholeheartedly, to also elaborate on your point they've started nearly 15% fewer shifts in the offensive zone. Yes their production has gone down, but they're much better two-way players now.

Yep, they absolutely killed it in terms of possession last season when asked to go up against No. 1 lines because Kesler was out and neither one of Schroeder or Lapierre was appropriate for the role.

Which is why I actually don't mind if they repeat that this year. In fact, I'd almost prefer it... But for such a strategy to work, our top line - Trois Kronor :D - has to be in the lineup together for more than just 20 games or whatever it was. And the 3rd and 4th lines have to be able to beat their equivalent competition on the other team.
 

Jimson Hogarth*

Registered User
Nov 21, 2013
12,858
3
I'm going to go ahead and quote what I said in another thread about the Sedins' numbers:



To expand on that just a bit more, the Twins were facing some pretty darn soft competition in 2009-10 and 2010-11 (for both years they were 9th and 10th in Corsi_Rel QoC among regular forwards who played here for most of the year). The 1st year was when Kesler took on the toughest matchups, and in the 2nd it was - as we all know - Manny who did that.

And opendoor has brought this up before: in terms of raw numbers the last couple of seasons have seen the highest Corsi_Rel QoC steadily go up as teams in the West are getting stronger. What Malhotra faced in 10/11 (0.615, which led the team) would have ranked 3rd amongst Canucks' forwards a year later, and 5th the year after that. This year it would only be 7th. :help:

Of course, this is not to say the PP hasn't been a problem either because it has (in terms of conversion, at least). But 5on5 roles have changed and that's because the Canucks no longer have a 3rd line center who can either:
A) take on and saw off those hard matchups which frees up the Sedins/Kesler, or​
B) actually take advantage of the relatively softer competition they'd have been facing.​

Right now Richardson does neither in the spot he's played in, and I think most people will agree that he's not an ideal 3C despite what some thought at the beginning of the season. IMO that's why they're actively going after a top 9 C which I agree with. This is made even more crucial by Henrik's rib injury and the fact that Santorelli is expected to be out "a long time".

To me the story remains the same as it ever has: forward depth - particularly at center - has been and still is an issue, though it's too bad we haven't gotten to see how they'd do when everyone's healthy. It's the one constant that has showed to be the most glaring issue in the past 2 playoffs, despite what some here would have you think.

I completely agree with your analysis and conclusion. That is why it was so hard for me to understand when this board was in an uproar over someone in management saying they were looking at upgrading the 3rd line C spot. Its the obvious position to improve in order to push zone starts and try to get Kesler and the Sedins out against weaker competition.
 

luongo321

Registered User
Apr 12, 2011
12,247
33
I just think the majority of these players overachieved at the exact same time a few years back. It was a magical run that they went on in 10-11, but they just had everything going for them and an insane power play. Sure, it's easy to look back and say that, but how many times has this team run into scoring trouble in the playoffs? Hell, we even had trouble scoring a few vs. Nashville in 10/11. What really sucks the most is the goal-scoring decline from Dan Sedin. How many times has this team made backups look like all-stars? They just have crummy shots.

We don't really have any players that can beat someone one-on-one with dangling and sniping. The Hawks are just loaded with high-end offensive skill. The Canucks do not have that. Even the Sedins success is based off of amazing passing and vision. I think that's why the Sedins get exposed so much in the shootout. Losing Ehrhoff really killed this team as well. Some people may not want to admit it, but he had great offensive skills and fit this team like a glove. Edler has fallen off the face of the earth too. Henrik Sedin is supposed to be the playmaker and Dan Sedin and Bur are supposed to score the goals. I dont know if Burr is just in some humongous goal slump, but this team is done if dan and burrows don't start scoring.

How to fix it? Probably through trades. Edler+ is the only thing I think that could bring us back a decent player, but I'm not sure how much I trust MG's trading ability after the Schneider trade.
 

Bleach Clean

Registered User
Aug 9, 2006
26,997
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I completely agree with your analysis and conclusion. That is why it was so hard for me to understand when this board was in an uproar over someone in management saying they were looking at upgrading the 3rd line C spot. Its the obvious position to improve in order to push zone starts and try to get Kesler and the Sedins out against weaker competition.


It's the difference between wanting a team that 'overwhelms' with its style to one that has all the right compliments IMO. Two schools of thought leading to the same end: A better team. The first school looks to push the team's agenda no matter what line is out there, the second looks to maximize a given line's output, while the agenda/style is a secondary concern.

If you think the team is strong, in its general style an effectiveness, and just cannot finish, you want the sniper. Regardless of this player pushing the agenda of the team. Why would he need to? The team is strong enough to do it regardless, with or without him. However, if you think the team is not strong enough _and_ it doesn't have finish, which becomes the priority? Adding the finishing touch, or making the team stronger at the base?

3C has been a problem for a long time. They've tried to address for 2 deadlines now, but to no avail. Santorelli has the right tools to create a 3rd scoring line, but they need a strong checking option to take the heat off Kesler defensively. Allowing him more opportunity to create offense.

In a way, they got lucky that Santorelli has provided them with most of what Derek Roy could have. Now they need an option to provide them with most of what Malhotra/Pahlsson could have done. ROR would be these two needs combined.

@Vanuck: Great Post. Agree with everything you have said.
 

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