OT: Official HFCaps STAR WARS Episode 7 Discussion (Warning: may contain E7 spoilers)

[g00n]

I'll say this about that...

We can believe in a "force" that is capable of responding to thoughts, giving the power of telepathy, moving solid objects, commanding energy, and even killing people....but there's no way anyone evolved enough to be capable of (or chosen and granted) that power could intuit what to do with it.

I hope this is intentional. Like I speculated before, maybe Rey becomes influenced by the dark side, which seems more prone to emotion and spontaneous release. In that pressure situation, maybe she was able to tap into it and it becomes like an addiction or habit. Previous movies seem to follow this line of reasoning. Luke never seemed to exhibit any natural tendencies to use the force without training, and even with guidance there was concern that he'd give into the "untutored", emotional side of it.

If we are noticing then there's a good chance the people making the next film will notice.

 

[NobodyBeatsTheWiz]

Yeah, I thought it was pretty good when I saw it today, although I agree that Kylo Ren having trouble against two people who had barely ever used a lightSabre was a little questionable.

It seems very unlikely that Kylo Ren has ever used the LightSabre in combat beyond his training with Luke. Rey was a skilled fighter with her staff prior to the showdown and it seems reasonable than Finn had some non-blaster weapons training as a Stormtrooper. With a wounded Kylo Ren, it didn't seem particularly questionable to me. We also don't know anything about Rey's background yet.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

Seems unlikely that he's used his sabre in combat? He's one of the top bad guys in a fanatical group who will attack anyone, anyplace. We see him lead a party to storm a planet. Seems very LIKELY to me that he's used his sabre in combat....a LOT. Now against another Jedi, i agree unlikely. Against two novices with no training? It's almost comical.

 

[NobodyBeatsTheWiz]

Seems unlikely that he's used his sabre in combat? He's one of the top bad guys in a fanatical group who will attack anyone, anyplace. We see him lead a party to storm a planet. Seems very LIKELY to me that he's used his sabre in combat....a LOT. Now against another Jedi, i agree unlikely. Against two novices with no training? It's almost comical.

Sorry, meant that it's unlikely he's used his lightsaber in saber-to-saber combat. For slashing rebels with blasters? Sure. But that's a whole different ball game.

Finn would have received combat training for most of his life. And again, we don't know Rey's background, but she's obviously significantly stronger in the Force than Kylo Ren.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

Ahh ok, makes more sense.

OK, on Finn, it's slightly plausible given we saw a Stormtrooper with his baton thingy looking badass. It's either one vs a trained Dark-side Jedi I have a problem swallowing. Asking us to swallow that she just suddenly knows how to fight at an elite level with a sabre and do Jedi mind tricks is where I start to sputter. If she IS stronger with zero training, than your main badass Dark Jedi, that's a serious plot issue IMO. Otherwise, what, we're just waiting for her to get more powerful and beat everyone who is evil? There HAS to be more to this. If not they better get writing to cover for it.

 

[Hivemind]

It seems very unlikely that Kylo Ren has ever used the LightSabre in combat beyond his training with Luke. Rey was a skilled fighter with her staff prior to the showdown and it seems reasonable than Finn had some non-blaster weapons training as a Stormtrooper. With a wounded Kylo Ren, it didn't seem particularly questionable to me. We also don't know anything about Rey's background yet.

Kylo Ren (along with the other Knights of Ren) used his lightSabre to slaughter a number of Jedi padawans, at the very least. That is both verbally and visually alluded to in the movie. I'd expect at least a few of them were capable of attempting to defend themselves.

The more reasonable explanation is that Kylo was shot with Chewie's bowcaster, which they spent half the movie demonstrating how powerful it was and half the fight scene demonstrating how injured Kylo was.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

Kylo Ren (along with the other Knights of Ren) used his lightSabre to slaughter a number of Jedi padawans, at the very least. That is both verbally and visually alluded to in the movie. I'd expect at least a few of them were capable of attempting to defend themselves.

The more reasonable explanation is that Kylo was shot with Chewie's bowcaster, which they spent half the movie demonstrating how powerful it was and half the fight scene demonstrating how injured Kylo was.

Hmm...you might be right on that one.

 

[LegendaryNumber5]

Sorry, meant that it's unlikely he's used his lightSabre in Sabre-to-Sabre combat. For slashing rebels with blasters? Sure. But that's a whole different ball game.

Finn would have received combat training for most of his life. And again, we don't know Rey's background, but she's obviously significantly stronger in the Force than Kylo Ren.

Which is crazy because in the beginning of the movie we saw Kylo freeze a shot from a blaster in mid air... Can only imagine the crazy stuff she will be able to do.

 

[LegendaryNumber5]

Ahh ok, makes more sense.

OK, on Finn, it's slightly plausible given we saw a Stormtrooper with his baton thingy looking badass. It's either one vs a trained Dark-side Jedi I have a problem swallowing. Asking us to swallow that she just suddenly knows how to fight at an elite level with a sabre and do Jedi mind tricks is where I start to sputter. If she IS stronger with zero training, than your main badass Dark Jedi, that's a serious plot issue IMO. Otherwise, what, we're just waiting for her to get more powerful and beat everyone who is evil? There HAS to be more to this. If not they better get writing to cover for it.

There is a theory that she was one of the young jedi receiving training before she was dropped off in the desert. Popular opinions are that Luke wiped her memory and then either he or Leia dropped her off.

 

[NobodyBeatsTheWiz]

Kylo Ren (along with the other Knights of Ren) used his lightSabre to slaughter a number of Jedi padawans, at the very least. That is both verbally and visually alluded to in the movie. I'd expect at least a few of them were capable of attempting to defend themselves.

The more reasonable explanation is that Kylo was shot with Chewie's bowcaster, which they spent half the movie demonstrating how powerful it was and half the fight scene demonstrating how injured Kylo was.

Padawans didn't get lightsabers until they went through the Gathering and built their own.

By the looks of his lightsaber, Kylo Ren likely didn't reach that point, since his looks like an amateur job. If he were the oldest/most advanced of Luke's padawans, then they probably wouldn't have been likely to mount a serious defense, especially with him having his "Knights".

You do have a point about the bowcaster injury, though.

 

[Caps Circle]

Just watched it. Overall, much better than the prequels, but only because the original characters are back imo.

I feel like the plot of this trilogy will be fine, as will the original characters. But the new characters just seem really weak. Boyega was terrible, Ridley was OK (probably better with a fleshed-out backstory), and I hated Driver. If he's really trying to be the next coming of Vader, he's going to fail. He has not been consumed of anger like Vader was. For all of the complaints about the prequels, Haydn Christensen at least did a great job of showing Anakin's eventual turn to the dark side. So far, Kylo Ren just doesn't have the same venom, and hasn't really worked as the villain so far.

 

[HTFN]

Just watched it. Overall, much better than the prequels, but only because the original characters are back imo.

I feel like the plot of this trilogy will be fine, as will the original characters. But the new characters just seem really weak. Boyega was terrible, Ridley was OK (probably better with a fleshed-out backstory), and I hated Driver. If he's really trying to be the next coming of Vader, he's going to fail. He has not been consumed of anger like Vader was. For all of the complaints about the prequels, Haydn Christensen at least did a great job of showing Anakin's eventual turn to the dark side. So far, Kylo Ren just doesn't have the same venom, and hasn't really worked as the villain so far.

I can totally agree with that. Those aspects of the prequels seemed to be so drawn out, and maybe they were, but at least they took the time to show what the psychological effects of them would be, and why they would shape someone into an "evil" character that it would take 20+ years to redeem. I spent a long time watching the movie going "okay, but like, why?"

Kylo Ren is just as petulant as Anakin was, but with practically none of the follow up as to why. Anakin you could understand, between his terrible upbringing and love arc. Maybe you wanted him to handle it differently, but whatever. This? Far as I can tell, his parents don't even "split" until he forces them to grieve, which means he just flipped the switch to "outrageous ******". Villains you can empathize with are always significantly more powerful from a narrative standpoint, so to have the only lightSabre wielding foe be an anus for no discernible reason makes it incredibly hard to take him seriously.



EDIT: This is my first post anywhere after seeing the movie, so I'm still kind of processing some of it, but I think it's interesting to see people say that Kylo Ren is beyond redemption because he killed Han Solo, even though the original Star Wars redemption story involves killing Ben Kenobi in the first movie, whooping the **** out of everything in the second movie, and then coming to terms with what is important by the third. With every other trope that they're recycling in Star Wars, redeeming the main bad guy doesn't seem so outrageously far fetched.

Unless the reason Kylo Ren's history so closely mimic's Vader's is because he knows Vader's story, and is attempting to quite literally follow those footsteps (the Padawan slaughter comes to mind) without knowing why, or what was actually important about them, failing to recognize that it wasn't just adolescent rage or lust for pure power. If the story is to poke at how often history repeats itself, then he'll probably have a redemption moment. If the idea is that he wants history to repeat itself, then he's boned.

 

[strungout]

Just watched it. Overall, much better than the prequels, but only because the original characters are back imo.

I feel like the plot of this trilogy will be fine, as will the original characters. But the new characters just seem really weak. Boyega was terrible, Ridley was OK (probably better with a fleshed-out backstory), and I hated Driver. If he's really trying to be the next coming of Vader, he's going to fail. He has not been consumed of anger like Vader was. For all of the complaints about the prequels, Haydn Christensen at least did a great job of showing Anakin's eventual turn to the dark side. So far, Kylo Ren just doesn't have the same venom, and hasn't really worked as the villain so far.

Isn't that the point of his character?

I don't think the audience is supposed to expect him to be as bad as Vader....but more along the lines of he's working his way there and killing his Dad is pointing him in more of that direction. (More so than Anakin who couldnt do his kinda dad/brother.) There is way more to that story to come out in the next one thats either going to put him deeper into the Darkside....or keep tugging him to the Light.

I think his petulance and wanna be attitude plays well...but I also dont see him as the big baddie. That's Snoke.

 

[sycamore]

Isn't that the point of his character?

I don't think the audience is supposed to expect him to be as bad as Vader....but more along the lines of he's working his way there and killing his Dad is pointing him in more of that direction. (More so than Anakin who couldnt do his kinda dad/brother.) There is way more to that story to come out in the next one thats either going to put him deeper into the Darkside....or keep tugging him to the Light.

I think his petulance and wanna be attitude plays well...but I also dont see him as the big baddie. That's Snoke.

If Snoke IS actually Plagueis, I wonder if we'll see a more ruthless Plagueis in the upcoming epsiodes. The Sith Lord as portrayed in the novel "Darth Plagueis" was the picture of restraint. "We are not butchers" was something he famously said when he first recruited Palpatine as his apprentice on the planet Taboo. Plagueis believed in working behind the scenes, slowly and patiently, to achieve his ends, not openly and ruthlessly like Sidious and Vader. But it was exactly that restraint (which Sidious interepreted as weakness) that got Plagueis killed by his apprentice in the end.

I really do hope it is Plagueis. He was an interesting Sith Lord, far more subtle and complex than some of his predecessors.

 

[Zoidberg Jesus]

So I've seen the movie twice now. The main thing thats been on my mind... does Rey - the quadrilingual expert gymnast/climber, spaceship engineering prodigy, ace pilot, deadeye marksman, and strongest force user in the galaxy - have any flaws? I like having a strong female protagonist, but christ. She's just not a well constructed character. And it's not like her comic relief sidekick or the angsty teenagers cosplaying as Darth Vader and Grand Moff Tarkin are much better. Po Dameron is the only decent new character in this movie that speaks english, and I wonder if that's mostly because the writers didn't give him enough screen time to ruin him.

I just feel like this movie is surviving off of nostalgia, previously established characters, cool visuals, and BB-8. The awful character design and plot glibly copied from episode IV seem like something from a high schooler's fan fiction, and I think it's really going to handicap the next two movies.

 

[g00n]

So I've seen the movie twice now. The main thing thats been on my mind... does Rey - the quadrilingual expert gymnast/climber, spaceship engineering prodigy, ace pilot, deadeye marksman, and strongest force user in the galaxy - have any flaws? I like having a strong female protagonist, but christ. She's just not a well constructed character. And it's not like her comic relief sidekick or the angsty teenagers cosplaying as Darth Vader and Grand Moff Tarkin are much better. Po Dameron is the only decent new character in this movie that speaks english, and I wonder if that's mostly because the writers didn't give him enough screen time to ruin him.

I just feel like this movie is surviving off of nostalgia, previously established characters, cool visuals, and BB-8. The awful character design and plot glibly copied from episode IV seem like something from a high schooler's fan fiction, and I think it's really going to handicap the next two movies.

You aren't the only one who noticed, and there's actually a name for it:

http://www.vox.com/2015/12/28/10672628/star-wars-force-awakens-rey-mary-sue

 

[HTFN]

You aren't the only one who noticed, and there's actually a name for it:

http://www.vox.com/2015/12/28/10672628/star-wars-force-awakens-rey-mary-sue

I found that a lot of her abilities seemed pretty organic for someone who had to scavenge to live. A lot of her mechanical know-how can be chalked up to the fact that poring over spaceship parts was literally how she kept herself alive, and I suppose I'd argue that her ability to fly is derived from the same, as she admits to not having done it, but relies on her technical knowledge of spacecrafts to get it done in a pinch, albeit very well.

Her lightsaber ability is kind of clunky, she does a lot of heavy lunges and other moves that aren't exactly the elegant swordplay of movies past, but do correspond well to her use of her staff on Jakku, implying that this isn't even close to the first time she's had to defend herself.

All things considered, I think her abilities are a little more reasonable than Luke's at this point in their narratives, to be honest.

 

[g00n]

I found that a lot of her abilities seemed pretty organic for someone who had to scavenge to live. A lot of her mechanical know-how can be chalked up to the fact that poring over spaceship parts was literally how she kept herself alive, and I suppose I'd argue that her ability to fly is derived from the same, as she admits to not having done it, but relies on her technical knowledge of spacecrafts to get it done in a pinch, albeit very well.

Her lightSabre ability is kind of clunky, she does a lot of heavy lunges and other moves that aren't exactly the elegant swordplay of movies past, but do correspond well to her use of her staff on Jakku, implying that this isn't even close to the first time she's had to defend herself.

All things considered, I think her abilities are a little more reasonable than Luke's at this point in their narratives, to be honest.

Right, but only because some mildly plausible explanation was written in as you describe. A "Mary Sue" character can still have this kind of heaped-on background that allows for the character to become a bit too perfect, too quickly.

I still hope it isn't clunky writing but rather a clever setup for some dark side plot twists.

 

[Dr John Carlson]

Also, I have to say that Kylo Ren looks a lot like a younger Severus Snape.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

120 IMAX, round two, begin!

 

[HTFN]

Right, but only because some mildly plausible explanation was written in as you describe. A "Mary Sue" character can still have this kind of heaped-on background that allows for the character to become a bit too perfect, too quickly.

I still hope it isn't clunky writing but rather a clever setup for some dark side plot twists.

I think that implies that what we saw was perfect. It got the job done, but compared to other characters in the series there are times where you can see just how roughshod this was, particularly the lightSabre scenes. I don't see her acclimating at a rate too different from Luke's (and I wasn't too clear on how Luke got to be such a good pilot either. Because his dad was and he owned a land speeder? What about Rey's fudgepop?), for the sake of the narrative.

Having skill doesn't make you a perfect character, and I'm not sure that she is. I'm pretty sure that the big inspirational moment where she taps into the Force at the end was an intro to the Dark Side, because she fights angrily and to kill.

This is kind of a unique film for the Star Wars franchise in that it has no "prime" force user. Everyone is either old as hell, living in isolation, or young and raw. You know there'd be complaints if there were no good duel, but to me it was very raw and clunky. Absolutely not some barometer of "skill" the way some people interpret it. Additionally, because there's no prime Jedi in this new trilogy, it makes it hard for us to know where the goalposts are. Vader was prime, he showed you the sheer combat potential of a force user. The prequels had like 10 Jedi in their prime. We don't really know what a fully competent Jedi will be able to accomplish in what basically amounts to a reboot (although can we talk for a second about the physics of Kylo Ren catching a blaster bolt, but then having it resume its acceleration after he stops the hold? Did he locally freeze time, or physically catch the object and then decide to throw it fast again? What?)

I personally assume that combat won't reach the absurd levels of Attack of the Clones, but it won't be the pinata party that A New Hope was. To have an injured villain that needs to complete his training against a raw force user already complicates the issue, but since we don't really know what "good" looks like, it's hard to say that what happened there was anything special. If they start whipping those Sabres around like Ewan McGregor in III, then we look back at this and go "haha, what garbage".

 

[usiel]

Finally caught the movie tonight. Somehow managed to avoid all spoilers on twitter and the dark incubus's here tempting viewing this thread.

Saw in pure natural sugary free 2d as all powerful zeus intended. For all those 3d proponents I hope I have blissful dreams of you getting eaten horrifically by komodo dragons but in the light of day, living quality lives, and passing along your seed/egg to the next generation.

That said with assigned seating I was dead center (AMC Tysons) row H. One row back and would have had the perfect eye level with horizontal 50 yard line of the screen which is ideal...no head up or down strain.

A fellow scraggly bearded guy wearing a likewise beanie AND wearing glasses (sans tattoos) sat down to my right. He was stoked and told me as much and clear he was properly lubricated for this movie. This was much better than the older couple to my left who spent some time deliberating obvious sitting numbers and the husband finally deciding the better part of valor was having is wife sit next to me. Needless to say there was no arm rest encroachment on that side.

So Shawn, the fellow to my right, was very very excited. I mentioned that I was as well but after The Phantom Menace was a little cautious. That was quickly agreed to but soon after was informed just how excited he was. And that he might lightly punch me in the right arm at certain points of the movie. I told him that was ok as he gave me fair warning. I mean not a bad thing to have someone next to you this frakking stoked for a movie. That said he never did except for one high five.

That said he became a member of my Armageddon list after he leaned forward for several minutes a few times in the movies. Sorry I've been to enough Capitals games that all leaners will experience judge dredd justice in the wastelands.

Ok onto the movie. From spoiler free review the safe word was bandied about. I would agree with that a bit. Also seemed a bit of wiping the prequels off the table and a semi reboot. Another bigger death star just felt lazy. But hey they are working off the nostalgia of the oldz (those who saw IV-V1 in the theater or in the next few years) or the millennials (you know those jar jar binks fans, I KEED! ).

Ok so Keira Knightly was awesome as Rey...I kid but man resemblance was uncanny. Ok Rey the character I really liked. Love her in the first two thirds of the film. I mean whats not to like about a gear head desert ranger that can not only fly but can fight. I was down with the interrogation scene but the the light sabre battle was seriously stretching it. I just wish there was a scene earlier that could have potentially explained it. I kept having the feeling the movie was missing some sections that would have placed things. Of course this could happen in the next one.

I didn't have as much a problem with Kylo Ren. When he destroyed that first console it was pretty clear he wasn't even an emo Darth Maul and the lack of Jedi hasn't helped the dark side that much.

Well that leads to too much having to 'meta' the gremlins in the force awakens. BUT I still enjoyed it. I'm not a nostalgic person generally. I did tear up in the first trailer but did not feel any of that in the movie though still enjoyed it.

Random: loved that first millenium falcon flight. Light sabre dues are still one all time best things in scifi movies. That rolling robot. I'm down with him. But I still wonder, in true jack handy deep thoughts style if, we are anthropomorph'ising. Something to ponder but c-3po, r2d2, and bb-8 are second class citizens, so to speak, but seem truly invested in organic life success and are cool with their subservient class. /me having quad damage flash backs. Long live .Md.

Ok so Finn. Still feel like we were missing some stuff. Like is antiquated holding Rey's hand and later knowing he was taken as a youngling and so did his training include some antiquated aspects. The comedy aspect were good but they just seemed rushed and not earned. Timing just felt off. Ok to meta a moment Kylo did single him out early on so there could be more to him.

Like Poe in the first section with him. That last flight combat thing sort of validating what we were already told seemed a little like redundant.

Last thing.. I don't normally like 'safe' but this was a good gateway franchise movie (I hope...and hopefully the marvel peeps rub off). I was sort of like 'ok this one was safe and out of the way so lets explode and see whats next'.

Snoke sounds like something from the Harry Potter series. Which is funny because Snoke actually looked like a bloated form of Lord Voldemort.

Da hell is that name.... Even Teen Wolf on MTV has better bad guy names (Deucalion). Yes I've watched that show.

When I first that frakking giant shriveled half corpse I was like. Yo man...

So I've seen the movie twice now. The main thing thats been on my mind... does Rey - the quadrilingual expert gymnast/climber, spaceship engineering prodigy, ace pilot, deadeye marksman, and strongest force user in the galaxy - have any flaws? I like having a strong female protagonist, but christ. She's just not a well constructed character. And it's not like her comic relief sidekick or the angsty teenagers cosplaying as Darth Vader and Grand Moff Tarkin are much better. Po Dameron is the only decent new character in this movie that speaks english, and I wonder if that's mostly because the writers didn't give him enough screen time to ruin him.

I just feel like this movie is surviving off of nostalgia, previously established characters, cool visuals, and BB-8. The awful character design and plot glibly copied from episode IV seem like something from a high schooler's fan fiction, and I think it's really going to handicap the next two movies.

Yep bolded this but in a way that is just like 'hey remember just how great a mcdonalds quarter pounder with cheese tastes?! Oh yeah this tastes great in my mouth but five seconds later when it hits my tummy I feel the dark side of the force swell within'. I just hope they spread their wings with the following movies.

 

[John Price]

At least two references to "You like that" or "You see that" early on during the movie which had me cracking up. Spoiler Kirk Cousins stole that phrase from Star wars

Also lot of CONCERN about Rey's abilities, well she isn't going to have any she's been a Scavanger for years. She's very raw. Once she gets training and becomes elite in the minor leagues she can use her skill effectively. She is like a raw prospect with potential, 4.0 B

 

[Caps Circle]

I feel like my main problem with the movie was that the developmental stages were very lazy and rushed so that the action scenes could be prolonged. Ren's internal conflict comes out of nowhere and disappears just as quickly.

And how the hell does he, a supposedly powerful Sith apprentice, lose to somebody who's holding a lightsabre for the FIRST ****ING TIME?

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

Interesting on Ren's saber. Reading it was constructed with a cracked Kyber crystal. The crossguards are plasma vents to relieve stress on the weapon housing.