[Official] Fire/Tolerate Travis Green Thread

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tantalum

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You have to be on a whole different level of bad to be out of a realistic chance out of a playoff spot at this point in the season.

The Torts disaster season team was still in a playoff spot in either February or March that season.

The same people who feel it's realistic that the canucks will win the division as they are only 7 points back of the Oilers with a game in hand seem to ignore that the Kings are 6 points back of the canucks with a game in hand...

Edmonton, Arizona and San Jose are increasingly putting distance between them and the canucks so it's rapidly getting to the point where you are watching the wild card spots...and in particular the last wild card spot as the Stars and the top 3 in the Central also are putting distance between them and the canucks. Vancouver, Vegas, Calgary with 30 points. Nashville, Minnesota with 28. Anaheim with 26. It's becoming more and more likely that only one of those teams is going to make the playoffs.

I'm going with Vegas who have managed to stay in the race despite some poor goaltending. I think Fleury will get it together once he returns to the team and has time to get his head right after his father's death.

It will come down to which team catches fire over the next 15 games (like Dallas, San Jose and Arizona did) because one of them likely will.
 
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Dr Good Vibes

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You have to be on a whole different level of bad to be out of a realistic chance out of a playoff spot at this point in the season.

The Torts disaster season team was still in a playoff spot in either February or March that season.
Fair enough and good point. I don’t agree with everything Green does, I just wasn’t sure why we are calling him arrogant.
 

CherryToke

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I see a team Everyone thought was going to be in the race for a lottery not in a lottery spot. Is the team good then? Are they underperforming? You must think they’re a well constructed roster. When you make a claim, you need to support it with evidence. The “I’m not going to explain because it’s obvious” line is weak. Especially when it’s not obvious.

I wouldn't say that the roster is well constructed but it looks good enough to battle for a wildcard spot this year. Unfortunately I see a team that has no structure to their game and is heading for a cliff. I see a coach that makes terrible lineup/roster decisions and in game coaching decisions every night.
 
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Dr Good Vibes

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I wouldn't say that the roster is well constructed but it looks good enough to battle for a wildcard spot this year. Unfortunately I see a team that has no structure to their game and is heading for a cliff. I see a coach that makes terrible lineup/roster decisions and in game coaching decisions every night.
Well, these are certainly concrete criticisms. I agree he doesn’t make the best lineup decisions and there’s some weird PP choices. What in game decisions of his do you disagree with?
 

Hyzer

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There's just so much wrong with Travis Green that it's honestly pretty tiring.

1. He cannot line match. See yesterday. We got destroyed at home. He sees that Benn gets ventilated, then has last change and line matches him against McJesus

2. Passive system that encourages dump ins and low percentage chances instead of properly well controlled zone entries as well as the system protecting the tie to go to overtime and rely on PP's.

3. PP's have been better as of late, but will return to the mean of being genuinely awful, thanks to Newell Brown and his god awful personnel choices. Here some exciting stats from Newell Browns last few seasons where has run the E L I T E power play:

This season: 26.4 percent PP success, 4th in nhl (2 months in)
Last year: 17.1 for 22nd place in NHL
17-18: 21.4 percent for 9th best place
16-17 Coyotes: 16.2 percent for 26th place in NHL
15-16 Coyotes: 17.7 percent for 20th place in NHL

We will eventually go back to the mean and will continue to get ventilated because we cannot reliably generate 5v5 ES chances, because once the PP scoring wears off then we're truly doomed.

4. Absolutely dreadful 5v5 play. Did you know that our 5v5 ES corsi is actually the same as under Willie? Actually, Willie had the highest Corsi for for 5v5 even strength at 49.5 percent back in 2014-2015 (we are actually at this Corsi right now but I'm sure we'll continue to slide).

5. Pretty bad personnel choices and load management. Playing Edler 26min a night? Dressing Loui? Come on now, these should be pretty easy decisions.

I really have no idea why everyone loves to defend Green. He's really not all that good of a coach. Furthermore, firing your coach is actually beneficial if you want to win. It has been proven that new coaches usually win more. https://blogs.oracle.com/datascience/the-data-science-of-firing-your-hockey-coach

Is there really any reason to not fire Green? We should be a better team by leaps and bounds and it really doesn't look like it all. Why not make an easy change that most likely will have a positive impact? Seems like an obvious no brainer.
 
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Hit the post

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Is there really any reason to not fire Green? We should be a better team by leaps and bounds and it really doesn't look like it all. Why not make an easy change that most likely will have a positive impact? Seems like an obvious no brainer.
He'd be the 2nd head coach he's hired for the Canucks. NHL GM's rarely (if ever) get to make two mistakes (without some kind of tangible win on the ice - ie., regular season/post-season record).

If he fires Green, the clock starts ticking on Benning immediately. I don't think he takes that risk at this moment.

At least, that's how I look at it.
 

Javaman

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He'd be the 2nd head coach he's hired for the Canucks. NHL GM's rarely (if ever) get to make two mistakes (without some kind of tangible win on the ice - ie., regular season/post-season record).

If he fires Green, the clock starts ticking on Benning immediately. I don't think he takes that risk at this moment.

At least, that's how I look at it.

That's the real problem. It doesn't actually matter how good or bad Green is. Benning can't fire a second coach without it immediately becoming glaringly apparent that he's a grossly imcompetent GM to even his most ardent supporters.

A relatively healthy Benning-constructed roster is barely clinging to a WC spot in year 6 of his regime. With 5 top ten picks to boot. Hiding places are rapidly disappearing.
 

VanJack

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Name me one organization in the entire NHL, I mean a single one, where they'd re-up a GM who's team hasn't made the playoffs in the six seasons, or a head coach who could miss the playoffs for a third consecutive year?

It's the NHL equivalent of the miracle of the "fishes and loaves" that these guys are still employed. But the owner seems sanguine about it. Unfathomable.
 

I am toxic

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That's the real problem. It doesn't actually matter how good or bad Green is. Benning can't fire a second coach without it immediately becoming glaringly apparent that he's a grossly imcompetent GM to even his most ardent supporters.

A relatively healthy Benning-constructed roster is barely clinging to a WC spot in year 6 of his regime. With 5 top ten picks to boot. Hiding places are rapidly disappearing.


homer-simpson-bush-gif.gif
 

F A N

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A relatively healthy Benning-constructed roster is barely clinging to a WC spot in year 6 of his regime. With 5 top ten picks to boot. Hiding places are rapidly disappearing.

There are literally 1-2 teams that aren't "barely clinging" to a playoff spot in the Western Conference.
 

Javaman

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There are literally 1-2 teams that aren't "barely clinging" to a playoff spot in the Western Conference.

It's more than just one or two teams, technically, but I get what you mean.

And I agree. But that just means it wouldn't take much for the Canucks to sink to the bottom of the conference standings.
 

Motte and Bailey

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Just because our injuries hit the players that you don’t respect because you’re oh so intellectual and know everything better than the experts it doesn’t mean the team is healthy.
 

F A N

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It's more than just one or two teams, technically, but I get what you mean.

And I agree. But that just means it wouldn't take much for the Canucks to sink to the bottom of the conference standings.

The Canucks are among a cluster of teams fighting for a playoff spot. There's a ton of parity in this league. So saying the Canucks are clinging onto a playoff spot with the intent of dissing the Canucks and current management makes you look foolish. You can diss management and think the Canucks are actually true playoff contenders.
 

Javaman

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The Canucks are among a cluster of teams fighting for a playoff spot. There's a ton of parity in this league. So saying the Canucks are clinging onto a playoff spot with the intent of dissing the Canucks and current management makes you look foolish. You can diss management and think the Canucks are actually true playoff contenders.

Ughh. It's hard to take you seriously sometimes.

Compartmentalization has it's limitations.
 

VanJack

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I see the Canucks Army projection has the Canucks as one of the highest-scoring teams in the Western Conference, but still falling short of a playoff berth. This seems consistent with the evolution of young, talented teams. They score goals in bunches, but don't have the 200-foot game or a consistent defensive system to get into the post-season, much less do anything once they get there.

Not sure what another playoff miss would mean for Green and the likelihood of a new contract. But the precedent wouldn't be good.
 

brock hughes007

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I see the Canucks Army projection has the Canucks as one of the highest-scoring teams in the Western Conference, but still falling short of a playoff berth. This seems consistent with the evolution of young, talented teams. They score goals in bunches, but don't have the 200-foot game or a consistent defensive system to get into the post-season, much less do anything once they get there.

Not sure what another playoff miss would mean for Green and the likelihood of a new contract. But the precedent wouldn't be good.
I was reading this also.Im not a Green fan by any means but I think if they made a change in the defensive coach dept,for some one better then Nolan Baumgartner things might be a little different?Who know,s.
 

F A N

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Edmonton, Arizona and San Jose are increasingly putting distance between them and the canucks so it's rapidly getting to the point where you are watching the wild card spots...and in particular the last wild card spot as the Stars and the top 3 in the Central also are putting distance between them and the canucks. Vancouver, Vegas, Calgary with 30 points. Nashville, Minnesota with 28. Anaheim with 26. It's becoming more and more likely that only one of those teams is going to make the playoffs.

I'm going with Vegas who have managed to stay in the race despite some poor goaltending. I think Fleury will get it together once he returns to the team and has time to get his head right after his father's death.

It will come down to which team catches fire over the next 15 games (like Dallas, San Jose and Arizona did) because one of them likely will.

There are still a lot of games to be played. I know you wrote this a few days ago, but that "distance" you said that San Jose is increasing putting between them and the Canucks? Well they are 1 point back of the Canucks. Dallas is one point ahead of the Canucks. Vegas is 2 points ahead of the Canucks but Canucks have a game in hand.
 

tantalum

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There are still a lot of games to be played. I know you wrote this a few days ago, but that "distance" you said that San Jose is increasing putting between them and the Canucks? Well they are 1 point back of the Canucks. Dallas is one point ahead of the Canucks. Vegas is 2 points ahead of the Canucks but Canucks have a game in hand.

I worded poorly or didn’t explain my thinking fully. The distance is in recent records and how that has led to those teams catching and passing the Canucks. That difference is significant. I feel that both Vegas and the Sharks are better teams and expect the record discrepancy to continue moving forward. Today the Canucks stand 8th in point percentage. A couple days ago they were 10th..that’s what happens with a single win right now. But the point is the same...there is a log jam and I just don’t see the Canucks coming out on top.

Perhaps I’m jaded but I still awful team defense and someone important is going to get hurt up front so that they really start to lose the scoring chance share. That said, the last couple of spots will likely go to whatever couple of teams go on a run the next 10-15 games. Maybe that’s the Canucks. If they want to make it it will likely have to be, because I think there are several teams that have found their game that I don’t see slowing down.

edit: and the wild have caught and passed them.
 
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Didalee Hed

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I see the Canucks Army projection has the Canucks as one of the highest-scoring teams in the Western Conference, but still falling short of a playoff berth. This seems consistent with the evolution of young, talented teams. They score goals in bunches, but don't have the 200-foot game or a consistent defensive system to get into the post-season, much less do anything once they get there.

Not sure what another playoff miss would mean for Green and the likelihood of a new contract. But the precedent wouldn't be good.
Would the precedent not already be how benning has been extended multiple times despite historic futility?
 

F A N

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I worded poorly or didn’t explain my thinking fully. The distance is in recent records and how that has led to those teams catching and passing the Canucks. That difference is significant. I feel that both Vegas and the Sharks are better teams and expect the record discrepancy to continue moving forward. Today the Canucks stand 8th in point percentage. A couple days ago they were 10th..that’s what happens with a single win right now. But the point is the same...there is a log jam and I just don’t see the Canucks coming out on top.

Perhaps I’m jaded but I still awful team defense and someone important is going to get hurt up front so that they really start to lose the scoring chance share. That said, the last couple of spots will likely go to whatever couple of teams go on a run the next 10-15 games. Maybe that’s the Canucks. If they want to make it it will likely have to be, because I think there are several teams that have found their game that I don’t see slowing down.

edit: and the wild have caught and passed them.

There is a logjam for sure. But for this reason, I disagreed with your point about certain teams increasingly putting distance between themselves and the Canucks. I don't think recent records are all that meaningful at this point in the season. Teams are bound to have good stretches and bad. At this point in time, how meaningful is it to think that Calgary, San Jose, and Nashville would turn things around due to past history when Calgary and San Jose have are -12 and -13, respectively, in goal differential? The Wild have won 6 straight but what did they do to improve their team over the summer besides firing their GM? Besides Zucker, the Wild's next top 3 scorers are Staal, Parise, and Suter. I'm not saying that can't make the playoffs. The Canucks made the playoffs in 2014-2015 where their top 3 scorers were 33 year olds.

I am jaded too and I agree with your assessment of team defense. With that said, I think the Canucks have a well rounded team through my homer lenses. I see the Oilers as a one line team, the Jets are propped up by elite goaltending and have a crappy D corps, San Jose has awful goaltending, Wild's old guys can't keep it up and right now their #1 goalie is Stalock. Dallas is hard to predict. Their top scorer is Seguin with 23 points in 30 games. Benn and Radulov have 15 in 30 games. In comparison, Pearson has 18 points and has the same amount of goals as Radulov.
 

hcg

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The same people who feel it's realistic that the canucks will win the division as they are only 7 points back of the Oilers with a game in hand seem to ignore that the Kings are 6 points back of the canucks with a game in hand...

Edmonton, Arizona and San Jose are increasingly putting distance between them and the canucks so it's rapidly getting to the point where you are watching the wild card spots...and in particular the last wild card spot as the Stars and the top 3 in the Central also are putting distance between them and the canucks. Vancouver, Vegas, Calgary with 30 points. Nashville, Minnesota with 28. Anaheim with 26. It's becoming more and more likely that only one of those teams is going to make the playoffs.

I'm going with Vegas who have managed to stay in the race despite some poor goaltending. I think Fleury will get it together once he returns to the team and has time to get his head right after his father's death.

It will come down to which team catches fire over the next 15 games (like Dallas, San Jose and Arizona did) because one of them likely will.
Yeah, they pretty much wrecked the season already.

Might managed to make it to a meaningful game in January. Maybe.
 

Motte and Bailey

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Yeah, they pretty much wrecked the season already.

Might managed to make it to a meaningful game in January. Maybe.

:laugh:

*Canucks are a top team at the end of October*

HF: they had an easy schedule it doesn’t count!

*Canucks hold onto a playoff spot despite the most brutal month of the season schedule by far*

HF: see? they suck!

Never change HF :laugh:
 
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