GuerinUp
Registered User
also basically an island due to the demilitarized zone. same with new zealand, etc. how has europe faired? they have actual curfews, still ravaged by covid.
OT: Official COVID-19 Thread
- Thread starter Wild11MN
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also basically an island due to the demilitarized zone. same with new zealand, etc. how has europe faired? they have actual curfews, still ravaged by covid.
HotDish
Win it for Hynes
why isn't UK doing better then? Travel is shut down so I hardly think that is the leading reason. I think Masks play into it a lot more than you are giving it credit. I fear our nation has too many people that don't believe in the experts or scientists anymore. The whole "I believe what I can see" leads to claims like the earth is flat. I see the horizon so it must be flat. Someone got covid so masks not work.
If you read into it. It isn't about the healthy person wearing the mask. It is the unhealthy person who is not. If I'm asymptomic and not wearing a mask you can catch it from me even if you are wearing one. If we both are wearing a mask that chances go way way down.
How masks protected dozens of clients of 2 hairdressers in Missouri from catching COVID-19
GuerinUp
Registered User
because england closed their borders to travel too late... thats how viruses work... as soon as you get a few in, they spread like hot cakes unless in fact you can isolate them initially from the general population. People in england can still leave the country for work. thats the exact reason the US has had such a problem is we kept our borders open too long.
englands self isolation policy:
You do not need to self-isolate if you’re travelling to England from one of the countries, territories or regions listed on this page. You must have spent the last 14 days in one of these places, or in the UK.
If you visited somewhere that is not on the list in the 14 days before your arrival in England, you will need to self-isolate. Visiting includes making a transit stop.
You will still need to complete the passenger locator form before you enter the UK.
- Anguilla
- Antigua and Barbuda
- Australia
- the Azores
- Bahrain (if you arrived in England from Bahrain before 4am 14 November you will need to self-isolate)
- Barbados
- Bermuda
- Bonaire/St Eustatius/Saba (will be added to the list 4am, Saturday 21 November)
- British Antarctic Territory
- British Indian Ocean Territory
- British Virgin Islands
- Brunei
- Cambodia (if you arrived in England from Cambodia before 4am 14 November you will need to self-isolate)
- the Canary Islands
- Cayman Islands
- the Channel Islands
- Chile (if you arrived in England from Chile before 4am 14 November you will need to self-isolate)
- Cuba
- Dominica
- Estonia
- Falkland Islands
- Faroe Islands
- Fiji
- Finland
- Gibraltar
- Greek islands: Corfu, Crete, Kos, Rhodes, Zakynthos
- Greenland
- Grenada
- Hong Kong
- Iceland (if you arrived in England from Iceland before 4am 14 November you will need to self-isolate)
- Ireland
- the Isle of Man
- Israel (will be added to the list 4am, Saturday 21 November)
- Japan
- Jerusalem (will be added to the list 4am, Saturday 21 November)
- Laos (if you arrived in England from Laos before 4am 14 November you will need to self-isolate)
- Latvia
- Macao (Macau)
- Madeira
- Malaysia
- Maldives
- Mauritius
- Montserrat
- Namibia (will be added to the list 4am, Saturday 21 November)
- New Caledonia
- New Zealand
- Northern Mariana Islands (will be added to the list 4am, Saturday 21 November)
- Norway
- Pitcairn, Henderson, Ducie and Oeno Islands
- Qatar (if you arrived in England from Qatar before 4am 14 November you will need to self-isolate)
- Rwanda (will be added to the list 4am, Saturday 21 November)
- Seychelles
- Singapore
- South Korea
- South Georgia and the South Sandwich Islands
- Sri Lanka (will be added to the list 4am, Saturday 21 November)
- St Barthélemy
- St Helena, Ascension and Tristan da Cunha
- St Kitts and Nevis
- St Lucia
- St Pierre and Miquelon
- St Vincent and the Grenadines
- Taiwan
- Thailand
- Turks and Caicos Islands (if you arrived in England from Turks and Caicos Islands before 4am 14 November you will need to self-isolate)
- United Arab Emirates (if you arrived in England from UAE before 4am 14 November you will need to self-isolate)
- Uruguay (will be added to the list 4am, Saturday 21 November)
- US Virgin Islands (will be added to the list 4am, Saturday 21 November)
- Vietnam
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ThatGuy22
Registered User
- Oct 11, 2011
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Japan (and South Korea/Taiwann) certainly is an outlier. But then you have to ask what makes them different than the dozens of other countries that have had strict mask mandates for months, and are seeing the same spikes we are.
I'm not sure if cross immunity is what you are referring to as "that crap", but it sure seems more likely than masks working solely in three countries extremely close to each other in location.
HotDish
Win it for Hynes
It wasn't cross immunity, however that may be the reason they used. What it boiled down to what a certain group of people claimed that Asians didn't get the virus and hence why nations like SK and Japan shouldn't be used as the barometer for America's ineptitude of handling the cirus.
They were right that Asian Americans were geting less infected that every other ethic group however, when you peel back the layers it had nothing to do with genes in their DNA. They found that asians communities were ahead of the curve when it came to preparing. Many Asian communities on the west coast stocked up on food and supplies before the big rush in America. Also many Asian owned business practiced masks and social distancing before mandates came in. Plus many have relatives in nations that were being hit before the US so they knew it was coming.
Now studies have come out that asians are 1.5 times more likely to catch Covid. Showing more evidence that washing your hand, social distancing, and wearing mask helps.
Couldn't it be argued that only having 55% of Americas saying they wear masks with 45% saying they refuse to is going to lead to more cases? There is a lot more data that shows masks help more than they hurt. It isn't a big deal. It is a piece of fabric. What's next? seatbelts are oppressing us?
I'm not saying this is your viewpoint, but I feel like it is for many Americans. We are living during the biggest pandemic in our lifetime and there are people wouldn't can't be bothered to do the bare minimum so grandma doesn't die.
This reminds me back in the spring when Doctors said you know we had the correct response when people look back and say "man we overreacted" IDK about but hell I look back and go damn we should've done more.
ER docs wear mask(s) and face shields, if not more specialized equipment. Haz Mat suits are clumsy to use for a full service ER and negative pressure rooms are in short supply. What if a patient presents with stroke symptoms AND tests positive for Covid, or has some sort of trauma(traffic accident) and Covid?
Masks help you to not only not breath in vapor, but are even more effective in not having you infect others. What has bothered me more than anything about this crisis is the lack of consideration and caring for others. Midwesterners used to be known for their sense of community, if nothing else, and now I am seeing society break down because of a selfish group that is incapable of a bit of self sacrifice, and, seemingly, rational thought. Just listened to Osterholm on WCCO. He is a calm, clinical individual, and was at pains to not be political, but you could tell he was biting his tongue.
It's very simple and obvious that wearing masks and keeping a distance from others will prevent the spread of Covid. It's not hard.
The scary thing is that Flu season hasn't started yet. Then you will have Covid, on top of Flu, on top of other problems, sometimes all in one person.
Oh, and BTW, there is starting to be a shortage in medical personnel.
Masks help you to not only not breath in vapor, but are even more effective in not having you infect others. What has bothered me more than anything about this crisis is the lack of consideration and caring for others. Midwesterners used to be known for their sense of community, if nothing else, and now I am seeing society break down because of a selfish group that is incapable of a bit of self sacrifice, and, seemingly, rational thought. Just listened to Osterholm on WCCO. He is a calm, clinical individual, and was at pains to not be political, but you could tell he was biting his tongue.
It's very simple and obvious that wearing masks and keeping a distance from others will prevent the spread of Covid. It's not hard.
The scary thing is that Flu season hasn't started yet. Then you will have Covid, on top of Flu, on top of other problems, sometimes all in one person.
Oh, and BTW, there is starting to be a shortage in medical personnel.
GuerinUp
Registered User
I wear a mask even though there is zero empirical evidence stating that masks other than n95s and vent suits work. why? so people dont mask shame me, and so i dont get in trouble with law enforcement even though they really cant do anything about it legally. i see your point that you want to save as many people as possible, and i dont differ on that view from you. But thats why i stay home other than for work or groceries. some of these countries have the ability to just tell their citizens to stay home, but we are a democracy with a constitution that protects certain liberties of individuals rights.
Look at the difference between Sweden, Denmark, Norway, and Finland. 4 neighboring countries with one outlier in terms of masks and social distancing, Sweden, but otherwise similar cultures.
deaths per 1m;
Sweden .....626
Denmark.....133
Finland....67
Norway.....56
One only has to look across the border to see what a country that hasn't politicized mask wearing. Having Health Ministers in charge who were around for the SARS outbreak in Toronto, and a public who remembered that time, incentivized them.
Canada.....297
USA.....776
Washington State/Seattle area was the first hit hard by Covid, with that awful situation in the nursing home where 20 or so elderly residents died. They since really clamped down, and have been successful in stopping the spread of Covid in comparison to other states, even though they were hit first.
deaths per 1m;
Sweden .....626
Denmark.....133
Finland....67
Norway.....56
One only has to look across the border to see what a country that hasn't politicized mask wearing. Having Health Ministers in charge who were around for the SARS outbreak in Toronto, and a public who remembered that time, incentivized them.
Canada.....297
USA.....776
Washington State/Seattle area was the first hit hard by Covid, with that awful situation in the nursing home where 20 or so elderly residents died. They since really clamped down, and have been successful in stopping the spread of Covid in comparison to other states, even though they were hit first.
GuerinUp
Registered User
i agree, but they are wearing N95's, N95's have carbon filters that actually do something. cloth masks do not.
Dr Jan Itor
Registered User
An abundance of caution in a place where people are already medically vulnerable. And because doctors think it’s the right thing to do. It really just ends there. I’ll trust economists with the economy, Generals and Admirals with the armed servies, and doctors with pandemics.
HotDish
Win it for Hynes
But they do! I just linked an article earlier where the COVID positive hairdressers wore cotton face masks or a surgical mask and they prevented the spread to over 100 people!
GuerinUp
Registered User
How does that differ from being in a hospital pre-covid? Still plenty of medically vulnerable people there that would die if they caught a cold or flu. patients still allowed visitors, with the exception of people that would have say tuberculosis, radioactivity, ebola, etc. Thats not the reason.
so youre telling me a person who was sick, went to work and helped 100 people while being positive for covid, and you think the issue is people arent wearing masks?
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HotDish
Win it for Hynes
ThatGuy22
Registered User
- Oct 11, 2011
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Interesting, i'd be interested in reading that if you have the link.
I hadn't heard any claims that in general, Asians (or was it Asian Americans) don't get covid as much. There is certainly evidence that Japan, Taiwan and South Korea aren't being impacted heavily by it, I recall reading at one point Japan's top doctors suspected it was a Cross Immunity from a previous coronavirus that spread through the region was the likely cause of why cases weren't skyrocketing there, and the cases they did have seemed less serious which goes to their minuscule death rate. That's logical to me, but I haven't seen if they've done any research to try prove/disprove that.
Like I said, i wear my mask despite there not being much evidence of their usefulness.
It all just get's back to my point of people shouting "The Science". The Science on mask wearing is not clear, my entire point.
There is anecdotal evidence (your hairdresser story, that admits it didn't look into the clients they had when they would have been most infectious), and some observational studies that suggest they may be helpful. The Randomized Control Trials, which are scientifically better than observational studies, have not found any evidence they are effective. CIDRAP article i posted is basically a survey of the last 50 years of studies on mask wearing, and they came up with zero evidence of it.
If they help, it's likely solely as a source control by containing droplets. Solving more or less the same problem Social Distancing does, as the 6 feet rule is because thats the limit droplets tend to go.
They don't prevent covid from escaping/entering as an aerosol, the primary way people get infected. The particals are just too small unless its an N95, KN95, P100 mask(which generally have valves that stop it working as a source control).
All the mask conversation does is provide an "Other" to blame using the backing of "The Science" without much science to back it up.
"If those people would just wear masks, this would all be over and we'd get to have thanksgiving, Wear a mask". send tweet...
GuerinUp
Registered User
Theres way too many variables to consider in this particular instance to warrant any credibility. Except 1, the fact if she went not only to work, but anywhere knowing she was positive for covid or even sick in general during a viral outbreak of this magnitude, that, that is the single underlying cause of the numbers rising like they have. and ive seen this first hand multiple times in the past 3 months. I actually just yelled at a coworker this week for being in the office when his son, whom he brought, got covid tested last week, and now hes sick as well and has been in the office for the last week.
Minnewildsota
He who laughs last thinks slowest
- Jun 7, 2010
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Just so we're on the same page. You're stating there's no empirical evidence that determines masks to be effective, but they may be effective.
You don't think people should be required to wear a mask because of the lack of empirical evidence? I'm trying to wrap my head around this one.
Clearly, what we've been doing as a whole society isn't working. People got lax and COVID shot up. Because of this, stricter measures are being put back into place. I don't understand what's so f***ing hard to understand about this.
Does it suck? Of course it does but f***ing nut up.
It's f***ing ridiculous we're even having this conversation.
You don't think people should be required to wear a mask because of the lack of empirical evidence? I'm trying to wrap my head around this one.
Clearly, what we've been doing as a whole society isn't working. People got lax and COVID shot up. Because of this, stricter measures are being put back into place. I don't understand what's so f***ing hard to understand about this.
Does it suck? Of course it does but f***ing nut up.
It's f***ing ridiculous we're even having this conversation.
GuerinUp
Registered User
No i dont think cloth masks are effective. n95s? yes. I dont think people should be required to wear anything life altering without empirical evidence, it goes against everything our democracy stands for, regardless that i wear a mask even though i know it wont do anything. While trying to stay as non political as possible, its borderline unconstitutional to have government shutdowns and mandates like this without hard evidence or actual laws in place.
Mask shaming? Poor baby...
Your rights arent being infringed by a mask request.
This argument is so stupid it hurts.
Masks are not 100% effective, even N95's. They are just way better than nothing. Vaccine's will not be even close to 100% effective. They are aiming for over 60%. If masks are only 50% effective then it is a huge deal, because the numbers comp0und really quickly, with infection numbers decreasing in the one case, or ballooning in the other.
One other thing. Some of the cotton masks being sold are quite heavy, and hard to breath through. The lighter, surgical masks(Motzko was wearing one tonight behind the bench) are relatively cheap, easy to get, and more comfortable.
One other thing. Some of the cotton masks being sold are quite heavy, and hard to breath through. The lighter, surgical masks(Motzko was wearing one tonight behind the bench) are relatively cheap, easy to get, and more comfortable.
GuerinUp
Registered User
ThatGuy22
Registered User
- Oct 11, 2011
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This is what i'm talking about with my statements yesterday. There is zero evidence for this bolded statement. At absolute best, there is evidence they are marginally better than nothing working as a source control for droplets, making socially distancing (which is used to combat the droplets as well) marginally more effective.
Let's just be honest about what they do/don't do.
Victorious Secret
2024 Lottery Winner
The thing I enjoy about this thread is, it really confirms who needs to be muted.
As an American living in Canada, there are definitely dum dums here (See Quebec/Manitoba/Alberta specifically). I just don't think they are allowed the similar gravitas behind advertising it.
As an American living in Canada, there are definitely dum dums here (See Quebec/Manitoba/Alberta specifically). I just don't think they are allowed the similar gravitas behind advertising it.
GuerinUp
Registered User
Sanford Health's Kelby Krabbenhoft on COVID-19 hospitalizations: 'There's not a crisis.'
No need for a mask mandate, from a health official.. weird.
No need for a mask mandate, from a health official.. weird.
HotDish
Win it for Hynes
Not everyone in health is actually intelligent.
Remember....somewhere in the world is the worst doctor.
If she doesn't think it's a crisis...I've got a bridge for her.
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