Official Calder Thread 2019-2020

[Bizzare]

So might even find it on the Norris a couple of times means they think he is likely going to win multiple Norrises? I think he’s saying it could happen but he’s not saying it’s likely.
I think both Hughes and Makar could if they hit their potential win a Norris. Its far from certain though as there are a lot of great D who never win it or only win once. Neither Makar or Hughes are there yet.
You have to take some of the hype you read on prospects and young players with a large grain of salt. Publications like to get hits. It’s like Pierre McGuire saying every prospect is going to be a monster. Let’s wait until they at least play a couple of years.

Yah agreed with what you said. His take was very vague as he doesn't seem confident.

 

[nucksflailtogether]

I think it's telling what Avs fans voted for versus fans of the East who probably haven't watched an Avs game all year. And of course Vancouver fans who try to downplay Makar

Like whom? I honestly haven't seen it once. Every van poster seems to respect Cale. And as I stated previously, our fanbase is usually notorious for being petty. The only fanbase acting up is yours. And I still fail to see how you can have everything and act this way. Its truly strange to see.

 

[flying v 604]

Or better yet maybe some people legitimately don’t see them as THAT close currently (anything could happen in the future, obviously), and posts like this sound like insecurity to those that think so

A lot of the arguments for Hughes sound like excuses or reasoning that ignore the entire context.

He’s only 3 points down? He’s also played almost 20% more games despite being down

The Avs are so much better than the Canucks? There is only a 4 point difference in standings currently

His possession advanced stats are better? Of course a player with a possession focused game has better possession stats than the player than emphasizes quick decision making and explosiveness

Makar has inflated shooting %? His shooting percentage has only really went down when he became less hesitant to take low percentage chance shots, and his production didn’t really falter.

Hughes has more TOI regularly? It’s like a minute difference AND the adv stats say Makar has higher quality of competition

Makar spends all his time with MacKinnon+ the Avs’ best scorers and Hughes does not with the Canuck’s best? Looking at the time played together, it’s actually only 5-10% swing between the two.

Any I’m forgetting?

You’re free to believe these are important points that make the difference much closer, but you really shouldn’t be surprised to see people think they’re not the same tier currently when every argument for same tier has a pretty well founded reason to not think much of. Or be surprised that people see it as insecurity to try so hard to say they are, either

Honestly the most humorous takes is when people try to rationalize this difference in opinion by declaring stuff like “living rent free”... since all they’re doing is trying to use the fact people don’t take their opinion seriously as “proof” of said opinion

There’s room for both opinions to be held with reasonable reasons

The points you bring up that Hughes supporters use are legit. You are basically saying if any of us point out an area that Hughes is better in were insecure? Makar supporters use his strengths to point out their reason as to why he is better the same way Hughes supporters do. Ava fans point out he has scored more goals and has more points in 8 less games, but they are also guilty of saying he would have gotten a ton of points in those 8 games which imo is a bit disingenuous IMO, he very well could have put up none. For you to say that factors like ice time and what line they spend majority of their time with isnt a valid point to use when assessing them, Or saying that we can't use a stat like possession because of the styles they play are different is not fair either. Quinn especially the last 15 games has been used more then any other LHD in shut down roles with the 2nd and 4th lines, and has excelled. I have zero issues saying Cale has been an offensive beast, stats don't lie but it can't be ignored that when Q is on the ice he's facing the other teams top lines and thriving. Nobody even us that were doing backflips when we picked him expected his D game to be as good as it is, this soon. I was shocked when I read an article on him and how he is outperforming Rasmus in most advanced stats on both end of the ice and is top 8 overall in the NHL. The fact that Tanev is having a career year and is healthy is directly related to Q.

At the end of the day both sides are pumping tires pretty hard. I think we should be thanking God both are teams lost the lottery in 2017 since we landed Petey and you guys landed Cale. Instead of our fanbases pissing on each other, lets just enjoy the fact that both teams are young, exciting, loaded with prospects and seem poised to become top teams in the west for the foreseeable future.

 

[flying v 604]

I’m an Avs fan and I don’t think Makar is generational but I think Matthews has the potential to be a generational goal scorer. The only active player with a higher goals/game is Ovechkin. Matthews is even ahead of Stamkos.

I think generational is used way to often nowadays. AM is a hell of a goal scorer but until he hits 50 or 60 multiple times not just be on pace for it, he can't be talked about in the same light as Ovie or Bure etc.

 

[avsfan09]

True. So how about juolevi, gaudette and myers for Cale? Quantity over quality every time.

I meant from my perspective

 

[Canucks1096]

There’s a good chance that Makar puts up more points in his rookie season, than Mackinnon did (63), as a defenceman. Mackinnon wasn’t on a bad team during his rookie season, so there’s no argument there.

Makar could be on the same level as Mackinnon, and certainly has the tools to do it.

Makar age 21 and Mack age 18.

 

[I am toxic]

Makar age 21 and Mack age 18.

That's just your opinion.

 

[Pierce Hawthorne]

Makar age 21 and Mack age 18.

Even higher chance that Makar puts up more points as a 21 year old than Mackinnon did as a 21 year old.



ARGUE THAT ONE

 

[Emell]

The points you bring up that Hughes supporters use are legit. You are basically saying if any of us point out an area that Hughes is better in were insecure? Makar supporters use his strengths to point out their reason as to why he is better the same way Hughes supporters do. Ava fans point out he has scored more goals and has more points in 8 less games, but they are also guilty of saying he would have gotten a ton of points in those 8 games which imo is a bit disingenuous IMO, he very well could have put up none. For you to say that factors like ice time and what line they spend majority of their time with isnt a valid point to use when assessing them, Or saying that we can't use a stat like possession because of the styles they play are different is not fair either. Quinn especially the last 15 games has been used more then any other LHD in shut down roles with the 2nd and 4th lines, and has excelled. I have zero issues saying Cale has been an offensive beast, stats don't lie but it can't be ignored that when Q is on the ice he's facing the other teams top lines and thriving. Nobody even us that were doing backflips when we picked him expected his D game to be as good as it is, this soon. I was shocked when I read an article on him and how he is outperforming Rasmus in most advanced stats on both end of the ice and is top 8 overall in the NHL. The fact that Tanev is having a career year and is healthy is directly related to Q.

At the end of the day both sides are pumping tires pretty hard. I think we should be thanking God both are teams lost the lottery in 2017 since we landed Petey and you guys landed Cale. Instead of our fanbases pissing on each other, lets just enjoy the fact that both teams are young, exciting, loaded with prospects and seem poised to become top teams in the west for the foreseeable future.

Sorry, I respect your right to an opinion, but these are NOT the defenses you want to use to counter my points

I never said he’d score in those 8 games. The things is that he wouldn’t even NEED to and still be ahead. That’s the point. He’s not playing catch up where we’d have to play speculative games.

The line combos and TOI play a factor. I never said they didn’t. But are extremely trivial at their level of separation in reality. Basically when Canucks fans bring them up, they tend to act like it’s a big difference when it’s actually small

Yes, saying possession play styles attribute to better possession adv stats is completely fair. Adv stats are not actual stats. They’re predictive and basically entirely driven by assumptions. If Hughes has actual better results in his play, then you may have an argument for his different approach being more effective. But nothing actually backs that. It’s not like it’s THAT far apart and it’s not like they play similar with Hughes doing it better. As of now, it’s just a difference in playstyle.

You’re now talking about his apparent shutdown role stuff. Now also recall those possession adv stats you cite and how they say Makar has a higher quality of competition. He’s no defensive slouch and isn’t anywhere near sheltered like your one dimensional take on him tries to imply

Yes. You’re insecure if you try so hard to ignore the parts of these points that make them much less persuasive than you want to act like.

At least, don’t be surprised when people see you that way.

 

[Martin Skoula]

I think generational is used way to often nowadays. AM is a hell of a goal scorer but until he hits 50 or 60 multiple times not just be on pace for it, he can't be talked about in the same light as Ovie or Bure etc.

So a guy who hits 49 in 50 10 years in a row wouldn't be generational or even in Bure's tier to you?

 

[flying v 604]

Sorry, I respect your right to an opinion, but these are NOT the defenses you want to use to counter my points

I never said he’d score in those 8 games. The things is that he wouldn’t even NEED to and still be ahead. That’s the point. He’s not playing catch up and we have play speculative games.

The line combos and TOI play a factor. I never said they didn’t. But are extremely trivial at their level of separation in reality.

Yes, saying possession play styles attribute to better possession adv stats is completely fair. Adv stats are not actual stats. They’re predictive and basically entirely driven by assumptions. If Hughes has actual better results in his play, then you may have an argument for his different approach being more effective. But nothing actually backs that. As of now, it’s just a difference in playstyle

You’re now talking about his apparent shutdown role stuff. Now also recall those possession adv stats you cite and how they say Makar has a higher quality of competition.

Yes. You’re insecure if you try so hard to ignore the parts of these points that make them much less persuasive than you want to act like.

At least, don’t be surprised when people see you that way.

I respect your opinion but why would I be insecure? Both are great players and the references I made about his strong play on the D side came from an article posted on CDC from an actual source. Like I said both sides will find reasons to pump their player but I never once took anything away from Cale. I simply pointed out some areas that Q is better in as well as what Cale is better in. An insecure post would be me belittling Cale just to make Quinn look good which I never did.

Not you but many Avs fans are the ones who seem insecure by mentioning he missed 8 games or say he better than Petey and he's a generational D etc.

I still think that ice time and who he's matched against is a valid point since Quinn lately has been deployed as the top minute's man even without being on the pk. To be 20 and logging around 23-mins lately against the Connors Ovie and AMs of the world and tilting the ice in the Nucks favour, is pretty good.

Like I said, I think both teams and fans are lucky to be witnessing this and hope Cale continues his excellent play. Cheers.

 

[flying v 604]

So a guy who hits 49 in 50 10 years in a row wouldn't be generational or even in Bure's tier to you?

No what I said was he hasn't scored 50 yet. I'm sure he will and he is a hell of a player, I just hate when players are crowned something based on what said player is on pace for. Guys like Bure and Ovie etc, have already accomplished it. That's all I meant.

 

[Martin Skoula]

No what I said was he hasn't scored 50 yet. I'm sure he will and he is a hell of a player, I just hate when players are crowned something based on what said player is on pace for. Guys like Bure and Ovie etc, have already accomplished it. That's all I meant.

Personally if someone leads the league in goals over a 3-5 year sample, that's more important than actually hitting 50 in a single year, but I understand where you're coming from.

 

[Emell]

I respect your opinion but why would I be insecure? Both are great players and the references I made about his strong play on the D side came from an article posted on CDC from an actual source. Like I said both sides will find reasons to pump their player but I never once took anything away from Cale. I simply pointed out some areas that Q is better in as well as what Cale is better in. An insecure post would be me belittling Cale just to make Quinn look good which I never did.

Not you but many Avs fans are the ones who seem insecure by mentioning he missed 8 games or say he better than Petey and he's a generational D etc.

I still think that ice time and who he's matched against is a valid point since Quinn lately has been deployed as the top minute's man even without being on the pk. To be 20 and logging around 23-mins lately against the Connors Ovie and AMs of the world and tilting the ice in the Nucks favour, is pretty good.

Like I said, I think both teams and fans are lucky to be witnessing this and hope Cale continues his excellent play. Cheers.

Sort of self explanatory why ignoring big parts of the facts to hype up a player would strike someone as acting insecure

And FYI, many Avs fans would say they’d take him over Pettersson and he has THE POTENTIAL to be a franchise D long before the Hughes comparisons became relevant

Missing 8 games is just a fact, too

Honestly in the end it just sounds to me like you hear what you want to hear.

Again, if you ignore half the facts (let’s note that includes the general assumptions about Cale’s defensive game to better hype Hughes, as well) then just parrot an article that told you how to feel, it’s hard to take you seriously

Sort of the beginning and end of that. It’s not like you actually did anything to counter my points. You just reaffirmed you’re going to believe what you want regardless

 

[Sergei Shirokov]

Quinn Hughes is winning over peers at his first all-star weekend - Sportsnet.ca

Quinn’s smoothness and evasiveness struck MacKinnon, who plays nightly with that other Calder Trophy–hunting defenceman, Cale Makar.

“I think they’re different, but amazing in their own way,” MacKinnon explains. “I don’t know Quinn a ton, but he maybe slows the game down a little bit and Cale kind of speeds it up. He’s always on the attack.”

Agree completely with Nate, I've been saying it for awhile. They are different players.

Makar is unique in that he plays a balanced 2-way game, but has exceptional explosiveness with his skating & shooting that most don't, can exploit space quickly.

Hughes on the other-hand slows the game down, uses his IQ & skating ability to control the play at both ends.

 

[Canucks1096]

Even higher chance that Makar puts up more points as a 21 year old than Mackinnon did as a 21 year old.

So base on this theory Hughes at 21 will be a better than Makar at 21 considering the fact Hughes from age 17 to age 20 was a better than D than Makar from age 17 to 20.

Thanks for confirming you Think Hughes will be better than Makar.



ARGUE THAT ONE

 

[AvsFan29]

I still think that ice time and who he's matched against is a valid point

Hughes plays like 40 seconds more per game, and against easier competition. Not my opinion, just the facts. Hughes also plays more time on the PP, where he’s scored a lot of his points.

 

[hooverdam]

“I don’t know Quinn a ton” is killing me for some reason. Like:

 

[The Merchant]

lol Cale is pacing to have the the 2nd-best rookie D season over 82 games in NHL history and people are saying he has no chance to be a generational player? Alright then

 

[AvsFan29]

lol Cale is pacing to have the the 2nd-best rookie D season over 82 games in NHL history and people are saying he has no chance to be a generational player? Alright then

He’ll just have to pick up the pace. Looking forward to it

 

[TruePowerSlave]

lol Cale is pacing to have the the 2nd-best rookie D season over 82 games in NHL history and people are saying he has no chance to be a generational player? Alright then

Are you really surprised?

Generational is a pretty big word. He would need to win a ton of Norris trophies and be right there as the best D to ever play the game, most likely this is not going to ever happen.

 

[notsocommonsense]

lol Cale is pacing to have the the 2nd-best rookie D season over 82 games in NHL history and people are saying he has no chance to be a generational player? Alright then

I don’t think there’s anything surprising about this given the vast difference in people’s defintions of the word generational

Some people throw it around at every elite player in their org while others reserve it for one or 2 players of a generation

 

[nucksflailtogether]

Hughes plays like 40 seconds more per game, and against easier competition. Not my opinion, just the facts. Hughes also plays more time on the PP, where he’s scored a lot of his points.

Easier competition? Hes been playing top lines. Who the heck is Makar matched against??

 

[Tempo]

Makar is the better player right not for sure, and there’s no argument. Is he a tier above Hughes? That depends on the definition of what’s considered a tier.

If the difference between A+ vs A or A vs A- is considered a tier, then sure, Makar is tier above Hughes.

If a tier difference is between A vs B, then no, Makar is not a tier better.

 

[Emell]

Easier competition? Hes been playing top lines. Who the heck is Makar matched against??

Fyi, Makar has a higher level of competition according to the same adv stats referencing Hughes’s better possession numbers. All posted in this thread

We going to start picking and choosing which adv stats count?