News Article: Offer Sheets

[operasen]

http://www.tsn.ca/radio/montreal-690/yost-nhl-teams-should-be-using-dual-offer-sheets-1.316251

Yost gave an interesting interview on 690 yesterday talking about double offer sheets. The premise is to sign of guy to a sheet that would cost a 1st and 3rd and another to one that would cost a 2nd. While teams would likely match the one, they may not be able to match both.

Boston's Hamilton and Spooner were used as an example. They would match the Hamilton but could not easily afford Spooner, who would then cost someone a 2nd (good value).

He also used Ottawa (Zibanejad or Stone and Hoffman). With all the useless deadweight, we'd be in tough to match both and could lose a Hoffman for a 2nd.

Apparently within 30 minutes of posting his thoughts he was getting call from GMs asking for clarifications. His 690 interview was quite good (1200 was talking nonsense at the time, as usual) and bring out a potential ability to get a lower rated player for a bargain draft pick that would take years to develop to the same point as the guy just lost.

Click to read more...

 

[Nac Mac Feegle]

That would be a nifty move for a team that wants a quick turnaround like a Detroit, or a team like LA that really does need a bit more offensive punch. No idea of their current cap situations, though.

As sad as it is, an offer sheet on our kids will always be a possibility.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

In order to lose one of 3 like that... All three would need to have offersheets.
For a team to gain from issuing the offersheets (IE existing team doesn't match)
they woud need to offer all 3 in this case. The player has to sign the offer sheet as well.

IE Lets say a Team offers Zib 6 per , Stone 6 per, and Hoffman 4 per.
So the Sens match to keep Zib and Stone and lose Hoffman to the bidding team

If they only offer 2 Zib and Stone ... they would not necessarily lose Hoffman.

The Sens would have to Match all terms of the offer sheet, so that sucks too cuz the length of the contract is dictated by the other team. The offering team would have to have the cap space to pull it off. But its a safe gamble the Sens would match 2/3.

http://proicehockey.about.com/od/nhlfreeagents/a/Nhl-Restricted-Free-Agents.htm

Yost article: http://www.tsn.ca/dual-offer-sheets-the-way-to-land-rfa-talent-1.315613

 

[Lenny the Lynx]

In order to lose one of 3 like that... All three would need to have offersheets.
For a team to gain from issuing the offersheets (IE existing team doesn't match)
they woud need to offer all 3 in this case. The player has to sign the offer sheet as well.

IE Lets say a Team offers Zib 6 per , Stone 6 per, and Hoffman 4 per.
So the Sens match to keep Zib and Stone and lose Hoffman to the bidding team

If they only offer 2 Zib and Stone ... they would not necessarily lose Hoffman.

The Sens would have to Match all terms of the offer sheet, so that sucks too cuz the length of the contract is dictated by the other team. The offering team would have to have the cap space to pull it off. But its a safe gamble the Sens would match 2/3.

http://proicehockey.about.com/od/nhlfreeagents/a/Nhl-Restricted-Free-Agents.htm

Yost article: http://www.tsn.ca/dual-offer-sheets-the-way-to-land-rfa-talent-1.315613

Isn't a triple offer-sheet technically impossible (by the same team)?

You need to have all of your own picks in the next draft.

Compensation is:
-$1.2-$1.8 is a 3rd
-$1.8-$3.6 is a 2nd
-$3.6-$5.5 is a 1st+3rd
-$5.5-$7.3 is 1st, 2nd, 3rd.

I think the point of Yost's article is the only 2 you could combine are the bolded. You couldn't do a third one

 

[Holdurbreathe]

In order to lose one of 3 like that... All three would need to have offersheets.
For a team to gain from issuing the offersheets (IE existing team doesn't match)
they woud need to offer all 3 in this case. The player has to sign the offer sheet as well.

IE Lets say a Team offers Zib 6 per , Stone 6 per, and Hoffman 4 per.
So the Sens match to keep Zib and Stone and lose Hoffman to the bidding team

If they only offer 2 Zib and Stone ... they would not necessarily lose Hoffman.

The Sens would have to Match all terms of the offer sheet, so that sucks too cuz the length of the contract is dictated by the other team. The offering team would have to have the cap space to pull it off. But its a safe gamble the Sens would match 2/3.

http://proicehockey.about.com/od/nhlfreeagents/a/Nhl-Restricted-Free-Agents.htm

Yost article: http://www.tsn.ca/dual-offer-sheets-the-way-to-land-rfa-talent-1.315613

Teams can't offer sheet more than one player in any of the predefined categories, so for your scenario to work one of Hoffman, Zibanejad or Stone would have to be presented with an offer sheet of less than $1,205,377, which isn't going to happen.

IMO the three Senator players will likely all be offered contracts in the $1,826,328 - $3,652,659 range on short terms or in the $3,652,659 - $5,478,986 range with longer terms.

So while Yost's dual offer sheet concept is possible, the effectiveness of such a strategy is questionable when applied to teams with significant cap space.

The fact is the maximum additional cost for a team to match both offer sheets is ~$3.7M, not a number the Senators couldn't match even if it put them over the internal budget for a period of time.

 

[stempniaksen]

Isn't a triple offer-sheet technically impossible (by the same team)?

You need to have all of your own picks in the next draft.

Compensation is:
-$1.2-$1.8 is a 3rd
-$1.8-$3.6 is a 2nd
-$3.6-$5.5 is a 1st+3rd
-$5.5-$7.3 is 1st, 2nd, 3rd.

I think the point of Yost's article is the only 2 you could combine are the bolded. You couldn't do a third one

I don't see the Sens walking away from any of Hoffman, Stone or Zibanejad for $3.6 million or less, so you think we'd be safe in this scenario. That Spooner example seems logical though, as Boston is tight up against the cap as is, and need to use their available money to sign Hamilton.

 

[Holdurbreathe]

Isn't a triple offer-sheet technically impossible (by the same team)?

You need to have all of your own picks in the next draft.

Compensation is:
-$1.2-$1.8 is a 3rd
-$1.8-$3.6 is a 2nd
-$3.6-$5.5 is a 1st+3rd
-$5.5-$7.3 is 1st, 2nd, 3rd.

I think the point of Yost's article is the only 2 you could combine are the bolded. You couldn't do a third one

Three is possible, but one of the three would have to be under $1,205,377.

Yost's model works best for teams that are cap crunched, not really teams that have considerable cap space.

While it is possible a GM with an internal budget may take the picks, I really don't believe too many owners would let a young player walk for a second round pick when the maximum dollar differential can only be ~$1.8M.

 

[Kickabrat]

First and foremost teams with cap room are generally bad teams. Teams with little cap room are generally good teams. So a player would have to weigh the money vs winning.

Anyway back to the Sens. Double sheeting Zbad and Stone would not work. Which one gets the short end of the stick? Whoever it is the Sens happily match. The other guy to get $5.48 M AAV it would have to be long term 3+ years. Sens would happily match that as well. So the only combo would be Hoffman and Stone or ZBad. Hoffman at $2-$3M would be tough to match. However, Hoffman is arbitration eligible. If he or the Sens decide to go that route he becomes ineligible to receive an offer sheet. Same with Chiason but getting a 2nd for him from a bad team would not be the end of the world.

Long story short, the Sens are safe. If it does happen they would match the higher offer and likely take the 2nd rounder for Chiasson. Hoffman IMO is likely to elect arbitration and Sens will settle on something with him. If it's too high they will find a trade for him if they don't include him in the goalie trade to begin with. A Stone/Zbad combo can't work. Doubt any one of them would accept $2M AAV on a long term deal. A 1 year deal makes no sense either since they would still be an RFA after and it all starts over again.

BTW if a GM had to call to get clarification, they have no business being an NHL GM to begin with.

 

[Busboy]

BTW if a GM had to call for clarification, they have no business being an NHL GM to begin with.

Doubt this actually happened, and it wouldn't be the first time Yost has stretched the truth to gain cred or clicks.

But I disagree with your sentiment. The CBA is a long and complicated legal document. GMs who are bogged down in the minutiae of a long legal document are probably neglecting their primary responsibilities. They will have a staff and legal experts who they pay to understand these things better than they do. I would imagine if anyone was calling Yost it would be these people, not GMs during draft week.

 

[Kickabrat]

Doubt this actually happened, and it wouldn't be the first time Yost has stretched the truth to gain cred or clicks.

But I disagree with your sentiment. The CBA is a long and complicated legal document. GMs who are bogged down in the minutiae of a long legal document are probably neglecting their primary responsibilities. They will have a staff and legal experts who they pay to understand these things better than they do. I would imagine if anyone was calling Yost it would be these people, not GMs during draft week.

If any of those guys called for clarification then they have no business getting paid for their advice

 

[Caeldan]

If any of those guys called for clarification then they have no business getting paid for their advice

Wouldn't be the first time they screwed up.
See Pronger 35+ contract.
Also the ROR shenanigans.

That said, you could offer these players the money - but they'd still have to accept. Which means basically you're overpaying for two players (as if they're getting market value they'd likely just stick with the team they're with for 'loyalty' reasons...unless there's other problems and then a trade is usually in the works).

Plus there's always the arbitration option to block offersheets on guys who you'd expect to fall in that 1.6-3.8 range. Gives you time to negotiate without the threat of an offer sheet.

 

[danielpalfredsson]

The problem with a double offer sheet to Ottawa is that in order to do one player at a 1st+3rd and one at a 2nd, it probably ends in a scenario where Ottawa matches both and in turn is just hassled. It would have worked with a player like Pageau where if he was the 2M offer sheet next to Stone's 5M, Ottawa would probably think about taking the 2nd for Pageau.

Judging by Ottawa's talk about their RFAs thus far, they are looking to go the cheaper bridge route. With that in mind, the most dangerous offer sheets would be someone offering Hoff or Zbad the highest compensation possible that can be done using a 1 2 and 3.

Is that 7M?

Would Ottawa be able to match 3-5 years 5-7M on Hoffman? That would be the target right there.

 

[Caeldan]

The problem with a double offer sheet to Ottawa is that in order to do one player at a 1st+3rd and one at a 2nd, it probably ends in a scenario where Ottawa matches both and in turn is just hassled. It would have worked with a player like Pageau where if he was the 2M offer sheet next to Stone's 5M, Ottawa would probably think about taking the 2nd for Pageau.

Judging by Ottawa's talk about their RFAs thus far, they are looking to go the cheaper bridge route. With that in mind, the most dangerous offer sheets would be someone offering Hoff or Zbad the highest compensation possible that can be done using a 1 2 and 3.

Is that 7M?

Would Ottawa be able to match 3-5 years 5-7M on Hoffman? That would be the target right there.

Hoffman's not a 5M forward, so I think they'd take the 1,2 and 3 and say thank you very much.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

Hoffman's not a 5M forward, so I think they'd take the 1,2 and 3 and say thank you very much.

I agree, we wouldn't match. I have a hard time seeing a team fork over a 1st, 2nd & a 3rd for Hoff either way after only one nhl season.

I'm not worried at all about any offer sheets. Either it's ok value, we match and have one of our guys locked up or it's way too much and we get a nice package of picks.

Tone down the compensation and they will be more common but until that happens I just don't think it's going to happen much if at all.

 

[operasen]

I agree, we wouldn't match. I have a hard time seeing a team fork over a 1st, 2nd & a 3rd for Hoff either way after only one nhl season.

I'm not worried at all about any offer sheets. Either it's ok value, we match and have one of our guys locked up or it's way too much and we get a nice package of picks.

Tone down the compensation and they will be more common but until that happens I just don't think it's going to happen much if at all.

It was more a scenario around one of Stone or Zibanejad for the larger number and then Hoffman with the lower. If we were too tight to match, it could be difficult.

Moot point now with the signings today/yesterday.

Interesting to consider the Boston example though. They will match for Hamilton no matter what and they are quite tight if they do not clear with a trade. Spooner was the lower Sheet. Getting him for a 2nd would be a win.

 

[Kickabrat]

I agree, we wouldn't match. I have a hard time seeing a team fork over a 1st, 2nd & a 3rd for Hoff either way after only one nhl season.

I'm not worried at all about any offer sheets. Either it's ok value, we match and have one of our guys locked up or it's way too much and we get a nice package of picks.

Tone down the compensation and they will be more common but until that happens I just don't think it's going to happen much if at all.

The compensation was expressly designed to make it hard for teams to give offer sheets. And when the NHL make it clear that it had to be a teams own draft picks it made it even harder. It won't change because teams don't want to lose their young players.

 

[aragorn]

The compensation was expressly designed to make it hard for teams to give offer sheets. And when the NHL make it clear that it had to be a teams own draft picks it made it even harder. It won't change because teams don't want to lose their young players.

I don't understand why it exists at all, it seems to be a way to back stab another organization, dirty pool so to speak. Look how offended teams get when someone does do it, they should just take it out & not have offer sheets at all, I think it's a dirty move.

 

[HavlatMach9]

I don't understand why it exists at all, it seems to be a way to back stab another organization, dirty pool so to speak. Look how offended teams get when someone does do it, they should just take it out & not have offer sheets at all, I think it's a dirty move.

so the RFA's aren't lowballed to hell i think

 

[Kickabrat]

I don't understand why it exists at all, it seems to be a way to back stab another organization, dirty pool so to speak. Look how offended teams get when someone does do it, they should just take it out & not have offer sheets at all, I think it's a dirty move.

Keeps the PA happy. Even though they have tried to get better the NHL won't budge.