Offensive Defensemen

[Canadiens1958]

Informal look at offensive defensemen.Not a comparison or rankings thread. Concerned with basic skills and styles.

Rushing defenseman.Before the forward pass became unlimited, defensemen rushed the puck, end to end scoring attempts since a back pass would slow down and negate any open ice or odd man advantage.Not shooters.

Passing defensemen. Once forward passing became unlimited the ability to make a forward pass or generate deflections became a factor BUT a powerful point shot was not part of the game.

Looking at Eddie Shore's stats illustrates the distinction. Starting with the 1929-30 season when the forward pass became an integral part of the game, Eddie Shore's assist numbers regularly surpassed his goal totals,previously the opposite was true.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/players/s/shoreed01.html

Quarterback defensemen. The arrival of Bill Gadsby,Red Kelly, Doug Harvey during the 1946-48 window followed by defensemen like Tim Horton, Pierre Pilote started a trend towards defensemen who would take some of the responsibilities away from the center on offense. Controlling the flow of the game, setting - up the power play from the point, much greater use of the outlet or breakaway pass after the red line was introduced. Paved the way for Bobby Orr
whose skills and style fully integrated and perfected all the offensive skills into the defenseman position.

All purpose defenseman. Defined by Bobby Orr, the tradition followed well into the 1990's thru Raymond Bourque via Brad Park, Denis Potvin, Larry Robinson, pre injury Serge Savard, Paul Coffey and others who generated offense.

The support defenseman. Present day defensemen who have superior skills BUT who support the offensive side of the game. Unlike the Orr thru Bourque style where offensive strategies were generated by certain defenseman, today's game requires that the defenseman simply support the offense even though they may be able to offer much more.

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[Pear Juice]

Informal look at offensive defensemen.Not a comparison or rankings thread. Concerned with basic skills and styles.

Rushing defenseman.Before the forward pass became unlimited, defensemen rushed the puck, end to end scoring attempts since a back pass would slow down and negate any open ice or odd man advantage.Not shooters.

Passing defensemen. Once forward passing became unlimited the ability to make a forward pass or generate deflections became a factor BUT a powerful point shot was not part of the game.

Looking at Eddie Shore's stats illustrates the distinction. Starting with the 1929-30 season when the forward pass became an integral part of the game, Eddie Shore's assist numbers regularly surpassed his goal totals,previously the opposite was true.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/players/s/shoreed01.html

Quarterback defensemen. The arrival of Bill Gadsby,Red Kelly, Doug Harvey during the 1946-48 window followed by defensemen like Tim Horton, Pierre Pilote started a trend towards defensemen who would take some of the responsibilities away from the center on offense. Controlling the flow of the game, setting - up the power play from the point, much greater use of the outlet or breakaway pass after the red line was introduced. Paved the way for Bobby Orr
whose skills and style fully integrated and perfected all the offensive skills into the defenseman position.

All purpose defenseman. Defined by Bobby Orr, the tradition followed well into the 1990's thru Raymond Bourque via Brad Park, Denis Potvin, Larry Robinson, pre injury Serge Savard, Paul Coffey and others who generated offense.

The support defenseman. Present day defensemen who have superior skills BUT who support the offensive side of the game. Unlike the Orr thru Bourque style where offensive strategies were generated by certain defenseman, today's game requires that the defenseman simply support the offense even though they may be able to offer much more.

Nice statistical proof there of Shore's change in gamestyle at the introduction of the forward pass.

On the topic of defensemen being less dominant today, I believe this can be contributed alot to the faster pace of the game. It is simply a lot more dangerous to join the rush as a defenseman these days when there's a quick counterattack coming back at you if you lose the puck. Bobby did skate back and catch them if he lost the puck, but with todays speed I hardly think that's possible.

Make no mistake though, they still can rush if asked for it. You just gotta set them loose. I see glimpses of Paul Coffey each time I see Mike Green rush up the ice. We saw in the playoffs how integral he was to the Caps success. And with the success he had during regular season, I'd be surprised if we don't see more young defensemen rushing in the near future.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Perceptions

Nice statistical proof there of Shore's change in gamestyle at the introduction of the forward pass.

On the topic of defensemen being less dominant today, I believe this can be contributed alot to the faster pace of the game. It is simply a lot more dangerous to join the rush as a defenseman these days when there's a quick counterattack coming back at you if you lose the puck. Bobby did skate back and catch them if he lost the puck, but with todays speed I hardly think that's possible.

Make no mistake though, they still can rush if asked for it. You just gotta set them loose. I see glimpses of Paul Coffey each time I see Mike Green rush up the ice. We saw in the playoffs how integral he was to the Caps success. And with the success he had during regular season, I'd be surprised if we don't see more young defensemen rushing in the near future.

Certain perceptions have to be adjusted.

It has always been true that a pass travels faster than even the fastest skater, regardless of era, rules or skills. Players simply do not hold on to the puck as long but the defenseman is not as implicated in the give and go or cycling offensive strategy.

There is a misconception that Bobby Orr was such a great skater that he could recover from errors in the offensive zone and correct them in the defensive zone. Game 2, 1971 Playoffs Canadiens vs Boston, late second period Bruins up 5 - 1. An aging Henri Richard strips the puck from a young Bobby Orr at the Canadiens blue line and goes in on a breakaway to score starting a comeback that produces a 7 - 5 Canadiens win. Bobby Orr did not come close to catching Henri Richard.Also other players in other games had breakaways against the Bruins with Bobby Orr caught up the ice.So let's put that perception to rest.

Todays faster pace is caused by the movement of the puck(passing). The rushing defenseman has to be balanced against the responsible defensive forward who could drop back and cover for him or impede him on the opposing side.

The Mike Green analogy is interesting and raises other issues. Will be interesting to see how his game evolves and how upcoming defensemen like P.K. Subban and others adapt to the NHL.Will their game be encouraged or like in the case of Doug Harvey will an old school coach like Dick Irvin hold them back.

 

[NHLHammerbound*]

Canadiens1958

There is a misconception that Bobby Orr was such a great skater that he could recover from errors in the offensive zone and correct them in the defensive zone. Game 2, 1971 Playoffs Canadiens vs Boston, late second period Bruins up 5 - 1. An aging Henri Richard strips the puck from a young Bobby Orr at the Canadiens blue line and goes in on a breakaway to score starting a comeback that produces a 7 - 5 Canadiens win. Bobby Orr did not come close to catching Henri Richard.Also other players in other games had breakaways against the Bruins with Bobby Orr caught up the ice.So let's put that perception to rest.

Bobby Orr famously chased down and took the puck off Yvan Cournoyer ( which for the benefit of younger hockey fans was nicknamed ' the Roadrunner' = Easily one of the fastest skaters of that era ) so the thing ur implying was a myth...was NO MYTH AT ALL...

Orr, caught way up ice, often got back in the play, when for other Dman it woulda been impossible...

***

P.S.: I'm an oldtimer just like u

CHEERS

 

[lextune]

Of course Bobby chased down forwards when he lost the puck. It's no myth.

Did he successfully do it every time? Of course not. But please....

 

[Dark Shadows]

Of course Bobby chased down forwards when he lost the puck. It's no myth.

Did he successfully do it every time? Of course not. But please....

Yep. Pointing fingers at the few times he did not do it is............

 

[Stonefly]

Well I'm one of the bigger Orr supporters on here but I can assure you he would not always get back in time. If he was holding the offensive blue line like he so often did by challenging the player coming out and didn't succeed (which was rare, absolutely the most confident defenceman in that situation I have ever seen) he would always catch that player. However when doing one of his famous rushes to the net, puck is turned over and passed up ice at 60mph he nor anyone else is going to get back into that play. But his team was designed around him and they all knew that someone else was to drop back when he was working his offensive wonders.

 

[NHLHammerbound*]

Well I'm one of the bigger Orr supporters on here but I can assure you he would not always get back in time. If he was holding the offensive blue line like he so often did by challenging the player coming out and didn't succeed (which was rare, absolutely the most confident defenceman in that situation I have ever seen) he would always catch that player. However when doing one of his famous rushes to the net, puck is turned over and passed up ice at 60mph he nor anyone else is going to get back into that play. But his team was designed around him and they all knew that someone else was to drop back when he was working his offensive wonders.

If memory serves , Orr had the highest +/- on record , one year. So its clear that his Defense was every bit as good as Offense. BOTH were peerless. ENDOSTOREY !

 

[85highlander]

Canadiens1958

Bobby Orr famously chased down and took the puck off Yvan Cournoyer ( which for the benefit of younger hockey fans was nicknamed ' the Roadrunner' = Easily one of the fastest skaters of that era ) so the thing ur implying was a myth...was NO MYTH AT ALL...

Orr, caught way up ice, often got back in the play, when for other Dman it woulda been impossible...

***

P.S.: I'm an oldtimer just like u

CHEERS

For those who are too young to remember, or for those who have never witnessed it, this is the sort of transitional play Orr often originated:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWRd2UBXyZY&feature=#t=4m20s

 

[Stonefly]

If memory serves , Orr had the highest +/- on record , one year. So its clear that his Defense was every bit as good as Offense. BOTH were peerless. ENDOSTOREY !

And I never said otherwise.

 

[Steve Kournianos]

Since the thread says "offensive defensemen", I won't try to focus too much on whether or not a guy could get back to the defensive zone. Highly skilled d-men with offensive instincts usually had buffer partners anyway, so to me, it's a non-issue.

To me, the most importance aspect of an offensive d-man's game was timing. When, where and how to make that split-second decision to change the flow of a shift, period or game is paramount to everything, IMO.

So that being said, there were only a few d-men in recent memory who had the ability to make that switch in the bat of an eye. The best, of course, was Orr, who had no peer, although Brad Park did put together some dominant seasons playing in Orr's shadow. Potvin and Robinson were great generals with impeccable timing and offensive instincts, but their offense output was more the result of kick starting plays from their own blue line rather than the neutral or offensive zone.

In the 1980's, the decade belonged to Coffey, who in my opinion was a lot more than just a skater. His timing was impeccable, his passing and vision was world class, and he had one of the most accurate shots of any player of his generation -- forward or defensemen. I think he gest punished too much for playing on powerhouse teams, but it is no coincidence that he anchored three defenses to the SCF. Honorable mention later in the decade goes to Housley, who also gets beat up around here too much. The guy entered the league as a teen and did a tremedous job using his skating and passing abilities on a tiny ice surface in Buffalo. He shot was also lethally accurate, and we was actually better at even strength than others who piled up points on the PP. I think it's safe to say that had Housely played on Edmonton or Pittsburgh or Calgary (in the 80's), he would have been a perrennial 85-point scorer. Larry Murphy and Al Macinnis also had great closes to the decade, but I don't think either owned the complete offensive package the other two had. MacInnis, god bless him, was a methodical skater and an above-average passer who only brought you out of your seat with his shot. Murphy was a textbook, tape-to-tape passer with amazing patience with the puck, but he also got too methodical with the puck, especially when he got traded to the Stars. Murphy was a great PP QB, as was MacInnis. Both also had outstanding offensive partners in Stevens and Hatcher, as Suter, respectively. Bourque compiled a lot of points by being a world-class passer and hammering 350-400 shots on goals a year. He had great instincts with the puck outside the zone, but once he stationed himself at the point, he just hammered the puck and asked questions later. He was by far and away the shots on goal leader of the NHL for the better part of 12 years, and a lot of points came by virtue of those shots.

The 1990's proved to be the zenith of the purely offensive defenseman, IMO. Coffey and Housely, as they got older, gave way to Hatcher, Ozolinsh, Niedermayer and Leetch. There was a period where Hatcher couldn't be stopped by anybody, and he became more and more like a forward after Stevns and Murphy were traded. His decline was puzzling. Ozolinsh was a pefect fit for Colorado and was excellent anticipating plays, which was done mainly because of the guys behind him.

Niedermayer, the poor soul, was stuck in Lemaire's system. To think the Leafs basically traded this kid for Tom Kurvers (speaking of one-trick ponies). Niedermayer, IMO, was a better, more powerful skater than either Coffey or Housely, and was more reminiscent of the classical end-to-end rushers of the 1970's. The Devils had a ton of firepower in the early to mid-1990's and Lemaire just didnt want to utilize it.
Had Niedermayer been allowed to dominate a game the way he could have, I think he could have finished his career as one of the 10 best overall, especially after he proved he can play both sides of the ice at an elite level.

Leetch was the complete package on offense except his shot was very weak from the blue line. However, his ice vision, timing, the precision of his passes, and his skating were at one point second to none. If you ask me, Leetch and Coffey are the only ones who possibly equalled Orr in terms of changing gears, creating their own open space and surveying the open ice in front of them for purely offensive purposes. I may be biased, but his 1994 playoffs were arguably the most dominant performance by a defensman in the history of the SCF.

Since 2000, the breed is dying. Mike Green is trumpeted way too much, but he has tremendous accuracy and ice vision, and he does make you pay for mistakes. He was abysmal in the playoffs this year, and he cleary acquiesced to OV and Backstrom in puck carrying duties. He needs to start taking over games on a nightly basis, not bi-annually.

 

[Canadiens1958]

On Ice Awareness

Since the thread says "offensive defensemen", I won't try to focus too much on whether or not a guy could get back to the defensive zone. Highly skilled d-men with offensive instincts usually had buffer partners anyway, so to me, it's a non-issue.

To me, the most importance aspect of an offensive d-man's game was timing. When, where and how to make that split-second decision to change the flow of a shift, period or game is paramount to everything, IMO.

Excellent post with details. Timing is part of the "On Ice Awareness" attributes which include the geometry of the game,having and using the data bank with the strengths and weaknesses of teammates and opponents, recognition of changing situations, anticipations and knowing your own capabilities.

 

[Steve Kournianos]

Excellent post with details. Timing is part of the "On Ice Awareness" attributes which include the geometry of the game,having and using the data bank with the strengths and weaknesses of teammates and opponents, recognition of changing situations, anticipations and knowing your own capabilities.

Another key is trust. Bourque, Leetch, Coffey and MacInnis all had good buffers -- Leetch had Beukeboom, Bourque had a myriad of good defensive forwards (I thought Don Sweeney was a terrible partner in the later years), Coffey had huddy/gregg/lowe etc and MacInnis had McCrimmon and Macoun.

That is why we saw a decline in purely offensive d-men. Not only has expansion watered down talent, but the defensive nature of the game made GM's opt for "steady" guys rather than "electric" ones. I am sure the training programs at USA Hockey and Hockey Canada also impacted the way defensemen see the ice, or lack thereof, from an offensive standpoint.

I'm really curious to see how Ryan Ellis or PK Subban adapt to the NHL. They have the tools to run the ice from the back end, but I dont think they'll be able to pull it off the way Leetch, Housely and Hatcher did.

 

[NHLHammerbound*]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1fMcTq8Esk

 

[Dark Shadows]

Since the thread says "offensive defensemen", I won't try to focus too much on whether or not a guy could get back to the defensive zone. Highly skilled d-men with offensive instincts usually had buffer partners anyway, so to me, it's a non-issue.

To me, the most importance aspect of an offensive d-man's game was timing. When, where and how to make that split-second decision to change the flow of a shift, period or game is paramount to everything, IMO.

So that being said, there were only a few d-men in recent memory who had the ability to make that switch in the bat of an eye. The best, of course, was Orr, who had no peer, although Brad Park did put together some dominant seasons playing in Orr's shadow. Potvin and Robinson were great generals with impeccable timing and offensive instincts, but their offense output was more the result of kick starting plays from their own blue line rather than the neutral or offensive zone.

In the 1980's, the decade belonged to Coffey, who in my opinion was a lot more than just a skater. His timing was impeccable, his passing and vision was world class, and he had one of the most accurate shots of any player of his generation -- forward or defensemen. I think he gest punished too much for playing on powerhouse teams, but it is no coincidence that he anchored three defenses to the SCF. Honorable mention later in the decade goes to Housley, who also gets beat up around here too much. The guy entered the league as a teen and did a tremedous job using his skating and passing abilities on a tiny ice surface in Buffalo. He shot was also lethally accurate, and we was actually better at even strength than others who piled up points on the PP. I think it's safe to say that had Housely played on Edmonton or Pittsburgh or Calgary (in the 80's), he would have been a perrennial 85-point scorer. Larry Murphy and Al Macinnis also had great closes to the decade, but I don't think either owned the complete offensive package the other two had. MacInnis, god bless him, was a methodical skater and an above-average passer who only brought you out of your seat with his shot. Murphy was a textbook, tape-to-tape passer with amazing patience with the puck, but he also got too methodical with the puck, especially when he got traded to the Stars. Murphy was a great PP QB, as was MacInnis. Both also had outstanding offensive partners in Stevens and Hatcher, as Suter, respectively. Bourque compiled a lot of points by being a world-class passer and hammering 350-400 shots on goals a year. He had great instincts with the puck outside the zone, but once he stationed himself at the point, he just hammered the puck and asked questions later. He was by far and away the shots on goal leader of the NHL for the better part of 12 years, and a lot of points came by virtue of those shots.

The 1990's proved to be the zenith of the purely offensive defenseman, IMO. Coffey and Housely, as they got older, gave way to Hatcher, Ozolinsh, Niedermayer and Leetch. There was a period where Hatcher couldn't be stopped by anybody, and he became more and more like a forward after Stevns and Murphy were traded. His decline was puzzling. Ozolinsh was a pefect fit for Colorado and was excellent anticipating plays, which was done mainly because of the guys behind him.

Niedermayer, the poor soul, was stuck in Lemaire's system. To think the Leafs basically traded this kid for Tom Kurvers (speaking of one-trick ponies). Niedermayer, IMO, was a better, more powerful skater than either Coffey or Housely, and was more reminiscent of the classical end-to-end rushers of the 1970's. The Devils had a ton of firepower in the early to mid-1990's and Lemaire just didnt want to utilize it.
Had Niedermayer been allowed to dominate a game the way he could have, I think he could have finished his career as one of the 10 best overall, especially after he proved he can play both sides of the ice at an elite level.

Leetch was the complete package on offense except his shot was very weak from the blue line. However, his ice vision, timing, the precision of his passes, and his skating were at one point second to none. If you ask me, Leetch and Coffey are the only ones who possibly equalled Orr in terms of changing gears, creating their own open space and surveying the open ice in front of them for purely offensive purposes. I may be biased, but his 1994 playoffs were arguably the most dominant performance by a defensman in the history of the SCF.

Since 2000, the breed is dying. Mike Green is trumpeted way too much, but he has tremendous accuracy and ice vision, and he does make you pay for mistakes. He was abysmal in the playoffs this year, and he cleary acquiesced to OV and Backstrom in puck carrying duties. He needs to start taking over games on a nightly basis, not bi-annually.

Bourque understood at the time, like most of the other top scorers of the time, when and how to put the puck on net. Particularly since much of Boston's system was designed in that manner. Shots on net create goals. A concept all of the very best implement. Gretzky was often above Bourque during those years in shots on Goal, as well as others like Lemieux, Dionne, Hawerchuk, Coffey.....Generally all of the top talent. Yzerman in his 155 point year was the league leader in shots on goal. Brett hull during his peak 5 year run was the shot on goal leader.

Alex Ovechkin today is generally always in Art Ross races and is generally the shots on goal leader. The guys who know when to put shots on goal are often the most successful over the guys who wait for the perfect play.

 

[Nalyd Psycho]

Bourque understood at the time, like most of the other top scorers of the time, when and how to put the puck on net. Particularly since much of Boston's system was designed in that manner. Shots on net create goals. A concept all of the very best implement. Gretzky was often above Bourque during those years in shots on Goal, as well as others like Lemieux, Dionne, Hawerchuk, Coffey.....Generally all of the top talent. Yzerman in his 155 point year was the league leader in shots on goal. Brett hull during his peak 5 year run was the shot on goal leader.

Alex Ovechkin today is generally always in Art Ross races and is generally the shots on goal leader. The guys who know when to put shots on goal are often the most successful over the guys who wait for the perfect play.

Not just that. But I'm sure if such a stat existed, the marquee players would have the most shots per shot attempt. It's one thing to miss or be blocked, and another thing to get the puck on net.

 

[NOTENOUGHJTCGOALS]

Also as Bourque got older and his offensive game declined, he still was a great offensive provider by just making smart quick wrist shots from the point where rebounds or deflections would be available. Not so evident in his later Bruins days but on the Avs you could see how effective it was in creating offense when he had some good forwards batting in those rebounds or tipping the shots.

 

[Dark Shadows]

His other not yet mentioned strength was the fact that he had one of the strongest transition games of any player of all time.

 

[Oilers1*]

I've always thought the decline of the true rushing defenseman (in the Orr/Coffey mold) was an underrated factor in the decline of offense into the 'dead puck era'.

I know there are many other factors at play, but look at how offense balloned when Bobby Orr arrived and continued to expand when the first generation of Orr-imitators (Coffey, Bourque, Leetch, etc) played in the 80s/early 90s and then dramatically declined as they were replaced my more supportive/point-men-type offensive blueliners like Lidstrom and Pronger.

I think we may be about to witness the rebirth of the rushing defensemen, though, with Green playing with Ovechkin and Letang playing with Crosby and Malkin. Those two are poised for success that, hopefully, allows guys like Ryan Ellis to really play ot their strengths when they make the bigs.