OEL on the move?

[Jakey53]

Already did - coaching.
Most here are no doubt disheartened over his lack of points, thing is and despite all his rhetoric RT does not incorporate the D in his system.
Some say he’s too soft, but the reality is he’s normally the one mixing it up and really should not be. Not too mentioned he’s been a target for years with no support from team mates.
The games I’ve seen in which he hasn’t thoroughly impressed me with some form of defense are few.

I agree. I think OEL has basically had enough with RT, and if RT is our coach next year, and it looks like he is, I expect OEL to waive his NMC. Let's see what happens in the next couple of weeks.

 

[Jakey53]

His slump predates Tocchet, although it seems to have been exacerbated by his relationship, or lack thereof, with Toc.



I used to be impressed on a nightly basis by OEL and both his defensive effort and his offensive brilliance. When he came up to the big league, he was a difference maker in virtually every contest.

I will give him plenty of leeway for what happened with his mom. But after Doan retired and everyone started looking to him to be the team's focal point, OEL has stopped being that difference maker, except in spurts. He will occasionally astound like he used to, but he also dives much more often, complains much more often, and disappears far too often. I remember OEL carrying an entire game on his shoulders five or six years ago. I rarely, if ever, see it now.

He's a nice guy. He has skill for days. What he's running short on is motivation. Neither you nor I know exactly why - we are both speculating. If Armstrong can fix that, great.

Look no farther than the coach.

 

[_Del_]

I will say as a founding member of The Trade Ollie Club that even with all the bullshit he's a top pairing defenseman. He's eating huge minutes and isn't a complete liability doing it. What he isn't is a good captain, performing consistently as a top threat, and engaged.

I completely understand we'll have to accommodate money/cap if we trade him, and that we aren't getting a franchise player back. But if the best offers involve taking a Neal-style contract and so-so prospects, I'd rather just watch Ollie on cruise control for seven seasons than take that return.

 

[The Feckless Puck]

I completely understand we'll have to accommodate money/cap if we trade him, and that we aren't getting a franchise player back. But if the best offers involve taking a Neal-style contract and so-so prospects, I'd rather just watch Ollie on cruise control for seven seasons than take that return.

Seems pretty clear that that's Armstrong's intent too, which is a good thing.

 

[Neighborhood Coyote]

His slump predates Tocchet, although it seems to have been exacerbated by his relationship, or lack thereof, with Toc.



I used to be impressed on a nightly basis by OEL and both his defensive effort and his offensive brilliance. When he came up to the big league, he was a difference maker in virtually every contest.

I will give him plenty of leeway for what happened with his mom. But after Doan retired and everyone started looking to him to be the team's focal point, OEL has stopped being that difference maker, except in spurts. He will occasionally astound like he used to, but he also dives much more often, complains much more often, and disappears far too often. I remember OEL carrying an entire game on his shoulders five or six years ago. I rarely, if ever, see it now.

He's a nice guy. He has skill for days. What he's running short on is motivation. Neither you nor I know exactly why - we are both speculating. If Armstrong can fix that, great.

He had one down season right before RT came here. 2016-17. The whole team sucked that year and had pretty much no centers to work with once Hanzal was gone. I don't think it's impossible that any player would have had bad stats that year. I don't think it could be said without a doubt that he specifically underperformed. He was second on the team in points that year anyways...

Could it have been him starting a slump? Maybe. But it's hard to say so definitively under those circumstances, imo.

The season before that was his best statistical season, for the record.

As for motivation... being forced to work under a manger who doesn't know how to use you properly or the rest of your team can definitely make a lot of employees lack motivation.

 

[Coyotedroppings]

You give too much credit to his early performance and while it was fairly fast, he was not an immediate difference maker. You also forget that Yandle was a big part of what success he did have offensively. Defensively he’s still extremely sound and often times it’s subtle, but amazing none the less.

 

[slv]

Hjalmarsson, GoGo and Demers are on expiring deals, and trading OEL we can end up with Chychrun as our best d-man. And three years in a row Chych is bad in mean games.
Maybe I am will be in minority but I think keeping OEL would not harm the rebuild as a whole process because you always need 1-2 good vets.

 

[PainForShane]

If Brian Armstrong has a 5-year plan... Oliver’s been in the league forever but he’s still only 29. 34 is not that old for a defenseman and imo he’ll still be at least a good top 4 at that time. Imo OEL’s game should age pretty well because it’s based on position rather than physicality, seeing open ice and then hitting skaters in stride etc.

We don’t NEED to trade him right now. Esp if his AAV during the time of Covid / flat cap is limiting the return we’d get for him

 

[rt]

If Brian Armstrong has a 5-year plan... Oliver’s been in the league forever but he’s still only 29. 34 is not that old for a defenseman and imo he’ll still be at least a good top 4 at that time. Imo OEL’s game should age pretty well because it’s based on position rather than physicality, seeing open ice and then hitting skaters in stride etc.

We don’t NEED to trade him right now. Esp if his AAV during the time of Covid / flat cap is limiting the return we’d get for him

You don’t HAVE to trade OEL or Kuemper. But no one else on the team over 25 has any trade value beyond maybe a future 2nd or 3rd.

If the plan is to “re-stock the cupboards” you literally cannot do that without trading OEL and Kuemper.

A choice has to be made as to whether to try to become a credible threat in the playoffs as soon as next season, or to take a step back in order to be a credible playoff threat a few years down the road. This is a crossroads.

If you want to compete now, you can’t trade OEL or Kuemper. If you want to compete later you must trade OEL and Kuemper.

 

[GhostofTommyBolin]

If Brian Armstrong has a 5-year plan... Oliver’s been in the league forever but he’s still only 29. 34 is not that old for a defenseman and imo he’ll still be at least a good top 4 at that time. Imo OEL’s game should age pretty well because it’s based on position rather than physicality, seeing open ice and then hitting skaters in stride etc.

We don’t NEED to trade him right now. Esp if his AAV during the time of Covid / flat cap is limiting the return we’d get for him

After three years, it's clear he and Tocchet can't see eye to eye. That relationship isn't going to improve. So there are really only a couple options:

1. Fire Tocchet and keep OEL, hoping he returns to the player he was when everyone sang his praises, but deal with the fact he's one of your only two tradeable assets that will fetch you a worthy return.
2. Keep Tocchet and trade OEL, and deal with the fact he's one of your only two tradeable assets that will fetch you a worthy return.

 

[PainForShane]

After three years, it's clear he and Tocchet can't see eye to eye. That relationship isn't going to improve. So there are really only a couple options:

1. Fire Tocchet and keep OEL, hoping he returns to the player he was when everyone sang his praises, but deal with the fact he's one of your only two tradeable assets that will fetch you a worthy return.
2. Keep Tocchet and trade OEL, and deal with the fact he's one of your only two tradeable assets that will fetch you a worthy return.

Yes please!

Seriously though as bad as Tocchet’s been at developing young players there’s no way he sticks around long term unless he somehow magically becomes a much, MUCH better coach (doubtful). I’d give Tocchet a year a most. Hopefully I’m right I guess we’ll all see together in real time.

Even if you don’t agree about whether Tocchet is a permanent part of our team, making franchise-altering personnel moves because of your below average NHL coach seems bush league. Of course it would depend on the return (Lindros and Duchene trades worked out well), but no need to offload these guys for nothing if the trade value’s not there. That’s my main point

 

[GhostofTommyBolin]

Yes please!

Seriously though as bad as Tocchet’s been at developing young players there’s no way he sticks around long term unless he somehow magically becomes a much, MUCH better coach (doubtful). I’d give Tocchet a year a most. Hopefully I’m right I guess we’ll all see together in real time.

Even if you don’t agree about whether Tocchet is a permanent part of our team, making franchise-altering personnel moves because of your below average NHL coach seems bush league. Of course it would depend on the return (Lindros and Duchene trades worked out well), but no need to offload these guys for nothing if the trade value’s not there. That’s my main point

I'd bounce Tocchet in half a second if I was GM and given the opportunity. I still think OEL has a lot left, but only under a different coach. I do agree that you can't just give him away for nothing, though.

 

[slv]

If you want to compete now, you can’t trade OEL or Kuemper. If you want to compete later you must trade OEL and Kuemper.

Getting rid of 4 out of 6 d-men in one year is more like purge than rebuild. Especially if we not getting a young promising d-man in return in OEL trade. For example I ok with Nurse, but not ok with Carlo, and so on.
I view rebuild as steady process, not just all purge. Getting a bad (but young and talented) team and collecting lottery picks year after year is not a rebuild in my eyes.

As for picks. We can flip some actives into 1-2-3 rounders, and if mister Armstrong will show good progress maybe NHL forgive us on verge of 2021 draft and give that 1st rounder back.

 

[slv]

Then again. We cant trade OEL if he does not want to be traded. And if he wants than something really wrong with this organization. Coyotes slapped Doan, now they want to trade OEL. Captain Coyote seems hardest position in the universe.

 

[Jagged Ice]

Captain Coyote seems hardest position in the universe.

It shouldn't have to be. Why would they ever give it to OEL in the first place? Because he's one of the best players? Has he ever struck you as much of a leader? There is no requirement that a team has to have a captain so why not wait until one emerges that is actually a leader. Or do what the great Jacques LeMaire used to do. Rotate the C to the most deserving/hardest working player at the time. Often times he'd name a new captain every month.

 

[Canis Latrans]

You don’t HAVE to trade OEL or Kuemper. But no one else on the team over 25 has any trade value beyond maybe a future 2nd or 3rd.

If the plan is to “re-stock the cupboards” you literally cannot do that without trading OEL and Kuemper.

A choice has to be made as to whether to try to become a credible threat in the playoffs as soon as next season, or to take a step back in order to be a credible playoff threat a few years down the road. This is a crossroads.

If you want to compete now, you can’t trade OEL or Kuemper. If you want to compete later you must trade OEL and Kuemper.

This is such a false alternative. I give zero credence to the idea that by not trading OEL the team is aiming to become a credible threat in the playoffs next season. If the market is poor for him, then whatever you acquire for him isn't going be a significant piece on the team once it becomes a credible threat down the road, and in all likelihood, OEL himself still would be providing more value to the team at that stage than whatever was acquired. Armstrong may very well see OEL as a piece that fits into the long-term plan.

 

[XX]

I'd trade OEL because the culture needs a reset and he's not captain material. You can't realistically take the C away and expect that relationship to continue.

That it aligns nicely with team needs is just gravy.

If they find a way to get good value then let him go be a $10.5m enigma somewhere else.

 

[lanky]

I think we all agree that he shouldn't be team captain. Can that be stripped without triggering another downgrade in his level of engagement? Thornton stuck around SJ after losing captaincy.

What's the minimum return we would need to let him go? 20 OA? 15 OA? I'm not talking about market value, just the bare minimum return to see him go. I don't think I'd accept 25 OA but I'd take 15 OA.

 

[rt]

This is such a false alternative. I give zero credence to the idea that by not trading OEL the team is aiming to become a credible threat in the playoffs next season. If the market is poor for him, then whatever you acquire for him isn't going be a significant piece on the team once it becomes a credible threat down the road, and in all likelihood, OEL himself still would be providing more value to the team at that stage than whatever was acquired. Armstrong may very well see OEL as a piece that fits into the long-term plan.

OEL and Kuemper are the only over 25 pieces with any trade value. What you’re suggesting is the worst of both worlds. Bad now AND bad in the future. Worst of all plans.

There is no “long-term plan” with zero draft capital.

 

[rt]

I think we all agree that he shouldn't be team captain. Can that be stripped without triggering another downgrade in his level of engagement? Thornton stuck around SJ after losing captaincy.

What's the minimum return we would need to let him go? 20 OA? 15 OA? I'm not talking about market value, just the bare minimum return to see him go. I don't think I'd accept 25 OA but I'd take 15 OA.

Armstrong isn’t going to have any interest in 2020 picks.

 

[XX]

What's the minimum return we would need to let him go? 20 OA? 15 OA? I'm not talking about market value, just the bare minimum return to see him go. I don't think I'd accept 25 OA but I'd take 15 OA.

Realistically I'd want a 1st + a young player with top6/top 4 upside at a minimum. If you can add useful sweeteners/dumps, even better. We've talked about those packages. Boston, Montreal, Edmonton, Calgary, St Louis can all get him.

Trading him frees up space, gets value that has more control and usefulness over the next 5-10 years, and resets the culture. There's very few reasons to keep him around. The reasons to trade him are more numerous.

 

[lanky]

Armstrong isn’t going to have any interest in 2020 picks.

I agree. I just think that's an easier way to communicate trade value.

 

[rt]

I agree. I just think that's an easier way to communicate trade value.

Russell+Samorukov+Lavoie+2021 1st (top 3 protected)?

 

[sundance74]

After three years, it's clear he and Tocchet can't see eye to eye. That relationship isn't going to improve. So there are really only a couple options:

1. Fire Tocchet and keep OEL, hoping he returns to the player he was when everyone sang his praises, but deal with the fact he's one of your only two tradeable assets that will fetch you a worthy return.
2. Keep Tocchet and trade OEL, and deal with the fact he's one of your only two tradeable assets that will fetch you a worthy return.

3. Give them both a boss who kicks their ***** to remind them to do their job

 

[Canis Latrans]

OEL and Kuemper are the only over 25 pieces with any trade value. What you’re suggesting is the worst of both worlds. Bad now AND bad in the future. Worst of all plans.

There is no “long-term plan” with zero draft capital.

You are unlikely to get a return for OEL that comes close to his actual value. It's likely a bad move now as his value is at one of its lowest points and his contract is unwieldly, both detracting from his return. It's a bad move in the future because in three to four years it's likely that his value is still higher than whatever the return that is being offered now becomes. It's a poor use of assets that can be revisited later when valuations change.

I didn't address trading Kuemper, but have no issue with moving him on as he fits the opposite profile to OEL, so sorry if it seemed that I implied not moving him either. Moving Kuemper is at least understandable because his value is higher than it's ever been.