Observations XIX

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Pred303

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Oct 8, 2004
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What about Subban/Ellis and Josi/Ekholm? Subban and Josi can carry for both pairs and you have now aligned offense+defense with your pairings. Though I do believe Subban to be great at both.

the problem with that LC is you are putting our 2 LHD together and then our 2 RHD together. you force two guys to play their non natural position, something i would worry would effect the value of both pairings.
 
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Armourboy

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In my mind the only way you trade Subban is if you have a 1st/2nd line winger coming back + a top prospect/high #1 pick. Preferably that pick/prospect would be a Dman that could be ready to play pretty quickly and could compete for that #4 spot.

Really though a guy of Subban's caliber gives you room for some options, but no matter what you need a quality player coming back in that trade.
 

MrJoshua

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Mar 24, 2010
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Salomaki, Hartman, Emelin, Hartnell, Fisher, and Saros need new contracts now (if Poile wants to re-sign them all - I think at least Hartnell and Fisher probably don't come back, and Emelin may not either). I don't think any of them are going to be terribly expensive. You may also see extensions for Fiala, Sissons, Ellis, Bitetto, and Rinne signed this summer since they're entering the last season of their current deals.

Rinne will probably be signing a short contract worth much less than the $7m/season he's making now. Maybe that will cover Ellis' raise. Then the question mark is how much Fiala gets, but I think he'll probably be a bridge deal around $3.5-4m/season.

My point is, I'm not sure it makes much sense to trade Subban or any of the top 4 D if you're just looking for cap space. There should be enough cap space already to pick up someone in the $4-5m range to improve the second line scoring punch. Maybe even quite a bit more, depending on exactly what the cap ceiling does.
 

Armourboy

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Salomaki, Hartman, Emelin, Hartnell, Fisher, and Saros need new contracts now (if Poile wants to re-sign them all - I think at least Hartnell and Fisher probably don't come back, and Emelin may not either). I don't think any of them are going to be terribly expensive. You may also see extensions for Fiala, Sissons, Ellis, Bitetto, and Rinne signed this summer since they're entering the last season of their current deals.

Rinne will probably be signing a short contract worth much less than the $7m/season he's making now. Maybe that will cover Ellis' raise. Then the question mark is how much Fiala gets, but I think he'll probably be a bridge deal around $3.5-4m/season.

My point is, I'm not sure it makes much sense to trade Subban or any of the top 4 D if you're just looking for cap space. There should be enough cap space already to pick up someone in the $4-5m range to improve the second line scoring punch. Maybe even quite a bit more, depending on exactly what the cap ceiling does.
We already know Fisher, Hartnell, and Emelin won't be back. Fisher busted his knee and retired, and Poile has already stated that Emelin and Hartnell won't be back.

Subban's cap hit is only useful if you use it to get a player on or above his level, or to get his replacement and a big upgrade on the 2nd line wing.
 

NoNecksCurse

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So you would essentially trade a Norris finalist for a prospect, a d-man of some variety (that obviously wouldn't be as good as PK), and a 3rd line forward?

I don't even know where to begin. We're in prime "win now" mode. Do you just not like PK?
you're kind of selling everything i included short. i like PK but to free up 9 million plus get an adequate replacement for him ES would be okay. top 9 is vague but that could be an AA from detroit, hoffman from OTT, ect. a lot of options. I'm just looking at what I have seen these playoffs and cap wise.
 

PredsV82

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I really wouldn't be claiming that we won because we were too small .......... now would I ?

"Literally" and "no one else in the hockey world" ...... kind of BIG concepts, don't you think ? Maybe revisit the meanings of those words, lol.

Maybe you should cite a source... any source other than your own imagination, that claims the reason we lost in the playoffs was because of a lack of size.
 
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Maybe you should cite a source... any source other than your own imagination, that claims the reason we lost in the playoffs was because of a lack of size.
lol, it was your claim that "literally" nobody in the hockey world could agree with me or disagree with you. The onus is on you to explain or prove how such a silly claim could be true. I'm not here to prove a negative. Study up on logic and debate; come back sharp !
 
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i am accepting of all opinions and i know mine suck but there is just something to be said of someone that goes dormant for 2 (?) years and pops up like Buddha.

great post 303. i think we should move subban this off season personally and re sign ellis at 5 million.
So........ WHEN someone posts is indicative of them being right or wrong ? What a strange concept. Seems to be a lot of fairly bitter, unfocused, illogical need to shout down ideas, around here. It's OK, we're all human; won't hold it against you.
 
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there is something to be said about the lack of grit on this team on some of the lines against 'hard' teams. our second line is too much finesse, not enough grit. the forsberg-johansen line is certainly strong enough to cover for the lack of size/strength of arvidsson, but the second line doesn't have that. wish we had kept neal instead of jarnkrok to give that second line more toughness against strong teams. think it would have made a ton of difference honestly (and then one has to think of giving hornqvist up for neal, exactly the type of RW'er we most need). jarnkrok is an excellent 'utility' player able to fill multiple roles in the regular season, but it's no accident he becomes ineffective against hard teams in playoff intensity type games. my wish, is that we would add back a second line right winger with size/strength, and push smith down to 3rd line RW with Bonino and Tolvanen. Bonino plays a hard enough game to help Tolvanen. and then a 4th line of Sissons/Jarnkrok/Watson.

Personally i am ready to upgrade the forward corps at the expense of the defensive corps. Relying on your defense to produce offense causes a weakened defensive structure which we saw demonstrated all year, but especially in the playoffs. We were saved by the vezina caliber goaltending we saw in the regular season, but when the goaltending wasn't there in the playoffs it was exposed. Offensively our defense corps is the best in the league. but defensively we are middle of the pack honestly. offense slumps, but defense doesn't. and when your main contribution from your defense is offense, well sometimes that 'slump' just occurs at exactly the wrong time. add in that our goaltending isn't going to be as good as it was this past year (almost surely) and we need to tighten up defensive structure.

I see people saying we should pair subban/josi and then ekholm/ellis. but while that would work outstanding for the first pair i think, i don't think an ellis/ekholm pair has enough puck carrying ability to avoid disaster. all of them were basically bad even strength these playoffs (except ekholm), but at least subban was hot on the PP. so i could accept changes without panic.

i just would like to see more defense from defensemen and more offense from forwards.
Hey Old Friend - It's always good to hear from you, a voice of reason. Brave of you to even remotely agree with me lol, but your cache will allow it. I agree that we are asking too much of the D...... basically to be great D, great O, and to be whatever muscle we can muster in the crease. This became obvious when PK became our "enforcer" vs. Byfuglien, with only his "Octopus" routine to offer. Hartnell helped a little when he was invited to, but not much.

One of Ellis, PK, or Josi seems redundant. Eckholm is the most D responsible, setting him apart. Josi is the franchise. Ellis or PK for similar talent up front seems logical. Need a real sniper / end-to-end talent besides Forsberg; everybody else is an overachiever or gets beat up in between nice plays. A true power forward would be nice.

If you're down to only 3 'superstars' on D, maybe they each lead their own pairing, and we get partners for them who can contribute defensively and clearing the crease.

-Steve
 
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PredsV82

Rest easy, 303, and thank you.
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lol, it was your claim that "literally" nobody in the hockey world could agree with me or disagree with you. The onus is on you to explain or prove how such a silly claim could be true. I'm not here to prove a negative. Study up on logic and debate; come back sharp !

Oh dont you ever change Chic..

Anyone who has ever debated knows you cant prove a negative. The onus is on you to refute me with even a single citation. Just one. Go ahead, I'll wait.
 

glenngineer

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Jan 27, 2010
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We talk about lack of size up front yet some are wanting to trade Subban from the back end? We lose a lot of size and grit doing that. If we have trouble with our forwards being too small we'd certainly be hurting when Ekholm would be the only defenseman of worth with any size to him.

One way to fix the grit issue is go hard after Tavares. Everyone says pipe dream. I say we're a perfect fit. It drops Johanssen to the 2c spot where he can be flanked by Fiala and Smith, giving that line plenty of size. Tavares and Forsberg can handle themselves on the 1st line just fine. What you do after that is all gravy.

The biggest problem with Subban and Ellis is they're not the best skaters. Honestly, you could do away with Ellis a lot easier than Subban. Ekholm and Josi have good wheels so you're set there. I'd almost go to 3 pairing where you find a good fit to play with Subban, Ekholm and Josi on each pairing and when the games are close or tight, find a way to rotate the 3 of them to get more shifts with each other or the best of the other 3 defensemen you've got. Coach Q was a master of this when he still had Hjalmarsson to go along with Keith and Seabrook.

I don't think you need 4 amazing defensemen to go deep in the playoffs. It's a luxury, not a necessity. Having two elite defensemen like Subban and Josi with Ekholm there as well should be more than enough on the blueline to succeed.
 

Enoch

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Jul 2, 2003
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PK, Josi, and Ekholm are not redundant. They each have unique and elite skill sets in their own way. They are key cogs. Ellis is the one who is redundant, and by that I mean his offensive ability is replicated by PK/Josi who are both better defenders and faster (Josi significantly so). Ellis has probably the best shot, but he is not clearly better than either of the top two offensively and each have a deadly shot of their own.

My 2 cents.
 
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nomorekids

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Feb 28, 2003
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PK, Josi, and Ekholm are not redundant. They each have unique and elite skill sets in their own way. They are key cogs. Ellis is the one who is redundant, and by that I mean his offensive ability is replicated by PK/Josi who are both better defenders and faster (Josi significantly so). Ellis has probably the best shot, but he is not clearly better than either of the top two offensively and each have a deadly shot of their own.

My 2 cents.


Agreed. I think when people see the deal Ellis is going to get...rumored to be asking in the realm of 6-6.5 per...sticker shock is going to set in.

I think with that in mind, and knowing he has the leverage -- he makes the most sense to deal for forward help.
 
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predfan24

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Agreed. I think when people see the deal Ellis is going to get...rumored to be asking in the realm of 6-6.5 per...sticker shock is going to set in.

I think with that in mind, and knowing he has the leverage -- he makes the most sense to deal for forward help.


Could the Preds acquire more value in an Ellis trade if they allowed the sign and trade scenario ala the Turris trade? It's hard to imagine Ellis returning anything substantial with one year left.
 

NoNecksCurse

#164303
Oct 19, 2011
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Agreed. I think when people see the deal Ellis is going to get...rumored to be asking in the realm of 6-6.5 per...sticker shock is going to set in.

I think with that in mind, and knowing he has the leverage -- he makes the most sense to deal for forward help.
where are you hearing the rumors? if ellis is wanting 6-6.5 and won't come down, goodbye ellis.
 

LCPreds

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We're talking about retooling the Preds yet the odds still hold them in high regard. Interesting. Not surprising.
 

NoNecksCurse

#164303
Oct 19, 2011
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We're talking about retooling the Preds yet the odds still hold them in high regard. Interesting. Not surprising.
west is really weak besides us and winnipeg. and surprisingly vegas.

*not saying we are weak just in general the west is down with ANA, CHI looking mediocre at best and EDM continuing to suck even with McJesus
 
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