Proposal: [NYR/VAN] Nils Lundkvist & Lias Andersson for Jake Virtanen, Olli Juolevi, 1st

[bernmeister]

Kudos the OP??? This was a terrible proposal, for both teams. We likely won't be able to afford Virtanen either. Yeah it makes a whole lot of sense to lose all of Kreider, Fast and Strome (all who are much better) just to keep Virtanen with our already limited cap space???

I believe I specified my praise was limited exclusively to recognizing there is some basis for these 2 teams to do biz, including, but not nec limited to, Lias to VAN.

I did not approve the actual deal.
I emphasized among other issues, we wanted to keep our prospect stud RD
Also completely ignoring VAN's perspective of the trade; trading a key player for them and a 1st in the same trade is such an idiotic backwards counterproductive idea it's not even funny.

 

[bandwagonesque]

How?

A middle 6 winger who averages at 0.36 points is better than a record breaking 19 year RHD with a high ceiling?

Sure

....but let me guess the responses?..."Virtanen is on pace for 40 plus points this year"

Well, yes. Virtanen has improved considerably every season and is currently on pace for 50 points. This is relevant to his value and you know it. I'd say a trade of him for Lundqvist is fairly even, insofar as that can be determined. Value is extremely difficult to calculate when proposing to trade an established player for a prospect, but you're not even really trying.

 

[QJL]

I’m not trading SHL record breaking prospect defenseman Nils Lundkvist for a decent role player, a bust, and an unknown/unavailable pick.

 

[haveandare]

It'd be a pretty big risk to trade Nils at this point. Unless the team knows something bad about him that nobody else does, it's too big a risk given his current ceiling.

 

[bandwagonesque]

It'd be a pretty big risk to trade Nils at this point. Unless the team knows something bad about him that nobody else does, it's too big a risk given his current ceiling.

This is completely reasonable. The timing and player age gap doesn't make sense here at all for either team.

 

[rotiman187]

Van says no.

 

[QJL]

Well, yes. Virtanen has improved considerably every season and is currently on pace for 50 points. This is relevant to his value and you know it. I'd say a trade of him for Lundqvist is fairly even, insofar as that can be determined. Value is extremely difficult to calculate when proposing to trade an established player for a prospect, but you're not even really trying.

He’s not on pace for 50 points. He has improved significantly, but he’s not close to Nils Lundkvist’s value right now.

Casual fans might not realize it, but Lundkvist is a two-way game manager who is about smash the record for points by a teenage D in the SHL. I’d argue his value his higher than any prospect in our organization not named Shesterkin. Lundkvist has passed Kravtsov and Miller for many fans. Virtanen and a 1st is not a good long term move for the Rangers and we know it.

 

[bandwagonesque]

He’s not on pace for 50 points. He has improved significantly, but he’s not close to Nils Lundkvist’s value right now.

Casual fans might not realize it, but Lundkvist is a two-way game manager who is about smash the record for points by a teenage D in the SHL. I’d argue his value his higher than any prospect in our organization not named Shesterkin. Lundkvist has passed Kravtsov and Miller for many fans. Virtanen and a 1st is not a good long term move for the Rangers and we know it.

He's on pace for 47.8 points and has 19 in his last 24. You actually checked the statistics, saw I'd rounded up from a difference that tiny, and thought it was worth mentioning?

 

[QJL]

He's on pace for 47.8 points and has 19 in his last 24. You actually checked the statistics, saw I'd rounded up from a difference that tiny, and thought it was worth mentioning?

Your math continues to be incorrect. 46.8 points.

I don’t like when people minimally exaggerate statistics to influence an argument.

 

[gianni]

How?

A middle 6 winger who averages at 0.36 points is better than a record breaking 19 year RHD with a high ceiling?

Sure

....but let me guess the responses?..."Virtanen is on pace for 40 plus points this year"

Kaapo Kakko averages 0.37ppg in the NHL. Are the Rangers willing to trade him for Aidan Mcdonough who's at 1ppg as a college Freshman?


....but let me guess the responses?..."Kaapo Kakko has room to improve"


If the Rangers don't want to trade Kakko b/c of his potential, why would the Canucks trade Jake Virtanen who is finally realizing his?

 

[bandwagonesque]

Your math continues to be incorrect. 46.8 points.

I don’t like when people minimally exaggerate statistics to influence an argument.

I don't either, it's annoying. Point taken. The Canucks have played one more game than I realized, but it's definitely 47.8 over an 82 game season.

 

[QJL]

I don't either, it's annoying. Point taken. The Canucks have played one more game than I realized, but it's definitely 47.8 over an 82 game season.

28/49 = .57142857

multiple that by 82?

46.8571429

 

[5cotland]

Kaapo Kakko averages 0.37ppg in the NHL. Are the Rangers willing to trade him for Aidan Mcdonough who's at 1ppg as a college Freshman?


....but let me guess the responses?..."Kaapo Kakko has room to improve"


If the Rangers don't want to trade Kakko b/c of his potential, why would the Canucks trade Jake Virtanen who is finally realizing his?

Oh dear lord!

 

[QJL]

Kaapo Kakko averages 0.37ppg in the NHL. Are the Rangers willing to trade him for Aidan Mcdonough who's at 1ppg as a college Freshman?


....but let me guess the responses?..."Kaapo Kakko has room to improve"


If the Rangers don't want to trade Kakko b/c of his potential, why would the Canucks trade Jake Virtanen who is finally realizing his?

If you think Kakko and Virtanen have similar potential, nobody can help you.

 

[bandwagonesque]

28/49 = .57142857

multiple that by 82?

46.8571429

To repeat myself, I know that. As I said, I hadn't realized Virtanen had played fewer games than the team. And "multiple" isn't a verb.

 

[bandwagonesque]

If you think Kakko and Virtanen have similar potential, nobody can help you.

Jesus Christ. That isn't what he's saying. He's making an analogy that depends on the implied knowledge that the two players aren't comparable.

 

[Kuznetsnow]

Come back in a few years and we will see.

When the gap between Virtanen + whoever is drafted with that 1st and Lundkvist is even greater?

Congrats on finding your own David Rundblad I guess

 

[elitepete]

How?

A middle 6 winger who averages at 0.36 points is better than a record breaking 19 year RHD with a high ceiling?

Sure

....but let me guess the responses?..."Virtanen is on pace for 40 plus points this year"

Virtanen will be a 50+ point winger with good defense, physicality (leads our team in hits), and elite skating. There are still areas where he can improve like going to the net more, but he is basically a top 6 winger at this point. You can’t just use his average ppg over the last few years because this year he is a lot better than any of those years, and isn’t just on a hot streak of 10-15 games which he has done in the past. He has been this good for almost the entire season.

Andersson > Juolevi and Lundkvist > Virtanen in terms of value.

The 1st was to make up the difference, otherwise the Rangers would never even consider it obviously.

Andersson is basically equal to Juolevi. If they’re not equal, they’re value is made equal by the fact that your guy has asked for a trade.

Lundkvist is not worth more than a 23 year old 2nd line winger with the attributes that Virtanen brings and still is likely to get better. If your prospect is so good why not keep him?

Even if you think he is better, the difference is not a 1st round pixk. Absolutely ridiculous.

Canucks fans would probably change their tune if Virtanen isn't having the season he is now.

Well no shit?

 

[elitepete]

Cool, add Hughes.

Hughes is worth more than anything in the Rangers organization. So I guess you could add Panarin 50% retained?

And before you say “AdD PeTtErSsOnNn”, not only is he significantly more valuable than anything the rangers have, he’s already better than Panarin.

 

[gianni]

Oh dear lord!

Be real. Your whole argument has been misleading and inconsistent.

If you think Kakko and Virtanen have similar potential, nobody can help you.

Take things out of context if you like, it doesn't help your argument:

"If the Rangers don't want to trade Kakko b/c of his potential, why would the Canucks trade Jake Virtanen who is finally realizing his?"

Kaapo Kakko = has potential.
Jake Virtanen = realizing his potential.

That's what that sentence meant. No ceiling comparison made to each other.

 

[Kaapo di tutti capi]

No interest in trading Nils Lundkvist.

 

[One Winged Angel]

Virtanen makes no sense for the Rangers right now and Juolevi wouldn’t maybe be the 5th best defensive prospect right now for the Rangers. Lundkvist is probably the #1 or #2 prospect in the organization at this second. With him smashing U20 SHL records, I doubt they move him unless it’s as part of a package for an elite young talent with team control.

Vancouver could get value for Virtanen, but I doubt you’re gonna find a team that’s going to give up a prospect the caliber of Lundkvist right now.

The deal is horrendous for the Rangers, who it simply doesn’t make sense for but it isn’t exactly good for Vancouver either.

 

[QJL]

To repeat myself, I know that. As I said, I hadn't realized Virtanen had played fewer games than the team. And "multiple" isn't a verb.

This makes no sense. If you thought Virtanen had played as many games as the team, it could only lead to his ppg being lower.

 

[Tempo]

Utter trash proposal for the Nucks.

Wouldn’t even consider this if the 1st was dropped.

 

[charliemurphy]

At least 2 of, if not all 3 of Kreider/Strome/Fast are gone after this season.

Someone is going to be a little surprised in a few weeks.