Proposal: NYR / Tor

[TGWL]

the underlying stats at the NHL level are really concerning, but that could be a result of sample size and the Rangers mailing it in when he was playing could skew some things

but stylistically it doesn't sound like the right fit for the Leafs even if he turns out, we have lots of offense from the back end and need more of a prime Marc Staal type. I don't think Pionk has the upside to be the guy that "fixes" the Leafs back end, we really need a top pairing RHD to take our defense from bottom half to solid, so if we're looking at bandaid type players I'd rather go for someone who is a good shot suppressor and can play against good competition - Tanev, Petry etc



value in this one seems slanted to the Rangers imo. Everyone wants to judge Kapanen on his small NHL body of work and only want to look at box scores without context (less than 12 mins a night, very defensive usage with primarily 4th line linemates) but are turning a blind eye to all of the other value indicators on him: draft pedigree, hugely positive indicators for offense when given scoring line time in the AHL, extremely high floor because of elite wheels and willingness to play defense. His brain may never keep up to his legs and hands, but even if that happens he's probably Grabner with Hagelin type defense - he can create odd man rushes and breakaways at anomalous rates with his legs, and he's got the shot and hands to finish those at a reasonable clip, Grabner's made a good career on that

Pionk has a high chance of not being an NHL'er at all, DeAngelo is a decent player but his off ice/attitude stuff makes him less desirable to acquire

He won't be a prime Marc Staal, which I'm assuming you're referring to as being very solid in his own end and used against top players consistently. He won't be a prime Girardi either. But I do think there's a place for mobile defensemen today regardless of having a few already. If you're looking for somebody to develop into the guy who leads your backend, or somebody that you toss out there to eat minutes up and shut down other teams top players, he's probably not turning into that guy. He'll block shots, look to make outlet passes and get involved in the play, but shot suppression probably ain't his thing.

 

[Randy Randerson]

He won't be a prime Marc Staal, which I'm assuming you're referring to as being very solid in his own end and used against top players consistently. He won't be a prime Girardi either. But I do think there's a place for mobile defensemen today regardless of having a few already. If you're looking for somebody to develop into the guy who leads your backend, or somebody that you toss out there to eat minutes up and shut down other teams top players, he's probably not turning into that guy. He'll block shots, look to make outlet passes and get involved in the play, but shot suppression probably ain't his thing.

oh ya, didn't mean that he wouldn't be a fit for the league if he turns out, just that the Leafs have a lot of that and not enough guys who do well at shot suppression. Our defense is very high-event both for and against, it would be nice to reduce the puck traffic that Andersen has to face. I think Petry/Tanev are better fits for what we need, and really we need a top pairing defender to play with Rielly to shift everyone into an appropriate role - right now the Leafs D corps is thought of as being terrible because almost everyone is asked to play over their head, one legitimate top pairing defender would change that imo

 

[Danny1237]

I think Calgary could use a backup, but goalies just aren't worth a whole lot via trade. The good news is Calgary would likely be open to adding a top 9 winger, and have prospect depth on D, albeit less so now that they traded Fox.

If I were the Leafs I would target Rasmus Andersson, as he is likely NHL ready, plays the right side, and definitely has top 4 upside. He likely has a hard time getting into Calgary's top 4 anytime too soon, and there are higher prospects on their depth chart still, so may be able to afford to move him.

If Calgary wants Pickard & Leivo/Kapanen, and is willing to give up Andersson both sides should be able to flesh out a deal around some combination of those players as principles.

 

[Danny1237]

Yea, the Leafs would like to improve their RHD. But actually it's solid with Zaitsev (he better return to his first year form with that contract) and Hainsey. It's the other spot....with Carrick, Holl and Ozhignokov that is the question mark. Leafs are crossing their figures one these guys can do the job. Or the option is having Dermot moving to the right side and Borgman/Rosen plays the left side.
But I am amazed at so many of these trades where the Leafs HAVE to take another teams 6th/7th/8th Dman and folks think it's an improvement on what the Leafs already have.
Leafs might be interested in trading for a guaranteed competent RHD but not trading for other teams questionable NHL competent Dmen.

I tend to disagree. Zaitsev and Hainsey have not been good when faced with top competition and heavy minutes. Zaitsev could bounce back and be servicable, and Hainsey can be a useful 3rd pair vet presence who is fed a ton of PK minutes, the Leafs need someone to play with Reilly who can't be so easily targetted as a weak spot. The Bruins were able to cut off the ice and force the Leafs RD to break out in the playoffs and it was what allowed Boston's top line to just dominate the Leafs in the playoffs.

They don't need a bonafide #1 guy, but anyone who can skate and move the puck to give the team options is worth taking a bit of a gamble on. I know most people think that they need a brute shut down guy, but there aren't many of those who are actually good. They should double down on their strength and go for a solid player who can also help get the puck up the ice, and just rely on their forwards keeping the pressure on rather than finding that 1 guy that can transform their D.

 

[lifelonghockeyfan]

I wonder why we post so many trade proposals for RHD then? I wish our solid RHD were actually a little more solid.

Well you are correct, especially about Polak's replacement. Leafs are going to hope that Zaitsev rebounds cause his 4.5m cap isn't going away. With the cap situation, especially not wanting to carry over any performance bonuses, I think the Leafs have few moves available right now. Maybe mid season when non contenders are sellers, and the cap implication is less maybe a move could be made.

 

[HoweHullOrr]

Well you are correct, especially about Polak's replacement.
........
Maybe mid season when non contenders are sellers, and the cap implication is less maybe a move could be made.

That's my guess. Ride with what we have and see where we are closer to the deadline. Maybe we add something then ....

 

[ElLeetch]

Pionk had terrible underlying numbers (especially shot/chance generation)..

This is why you have to actually watch hockey.

 

[Morgs]

This is why you have to actually watch hockey.

Great take.

 

[Cotton]

I love how people love to talk about how dumb Toronto fans are while talking as if our D was AHL level. It's almost as if the only hockey knowledge these people have comes from reading this board.

I've noticed the better our forwards get the general HF opinion of our D only gets worse. It's odd.

 

[bernmeister]

the underlying stats at the NHL level are really concerning, but that could be a result of sample size and the Rangers mailing it in when he was playing could skew some things

but stylistically it doesn't sound like the right fit for the Leafs even if he turns out, we have lots of offense from the back end and need more of a prime Marc Staal type. I don't think Pionk has the upside to be the guy that "fixes" the Leafs back end, we really need a top pairing RHD to take our defense from bottom half to solid, so if we're looking at bandaid type players I'd rather go for someone who is a good shot suppressor and can play against good competition - Tanev, Petry etc



value in this one seems slanted to the Rangers imo. Everyone wants to judge Kapanen on his small NHL body of work and only want to look at box scores without context (less than 12 mins a night, very defensive usage with primarily 4th line linemates) but are turning a blind eye to all of the other value indicators on him: draft pedigree, hugely positive indicators for offense when given scoring line time in the AHL, extremely high floor because of elite wheels and willingness to play defense. His brain may never keep up to his legs and hands, but even if that happens he's probably Grabner with Hagelin type defense - he can create odd man rushes and breakaways at anomalous rates with his legs, and he's got the shot and hands to finish those at a reasonable clip, Grabner's made a good career on that

Pionk has a high chance of not being an NHL'er at all, DeAngelo is a decent player but his off ice/attitude stuff makes him less desirable to acquire

Pionk will continue to improve and stay in the league.
Book it.
If for no other reason, supply and demand and shortage of RDs

DeA, still improving but baby steps.
Hindered by AV system
should improve w/new coach but by how much = anybody's guess

 

[Randy Randerson]

Pionk will continue to improve and stay in the league.
Book it.
If for no other reason, supply and demand and shortage of RDs

DeA, still improving but baby steps.
Hindered by AV system
should improve w/new coach but by how much = anybody's guess

if Pionk keeps the same underlying stats, he is a 100% wash out in short order regardless of position - a team can't let their opponents take 58% of the shots in a game and expect to be competitive so looking at a guy who was on the ice for that sort of imbalance and seems to be one of the guys dragging his linemates down to that level by the relatives of the same metrics would be an obvious problem to fix. But like I said there could be some reasons for anomaly there, I just wouldn't be looking at his boxscores and calling him a shoe in yet

DeAngelo looks like a very decent player at this point, it's just the drama that comes with him that's concerning. I'd be worried about adding him to a room where he's a supporting cast guy and having him rub the core players the wrong way. Nothing against the player, its the person that I'd avoid until he shows he can keep out of the headlines for a while

 

[ViewsFromThe6ix]

Pionk terrible? The defensively sound RHD who has 4 more points in 27 less games than Kapanen is terrible? Lmao ight

His advanced stats are completely garbage, what makes him defensively sound?

 

[ViewsFromThe6ix]

Yeah because Leafs fans have had so much experience the past 15 years watching defenseman on their team that can actually play defense.

Instead of insulting the team I watch, why don't you actually show me any sort of evidence that he is defensively sound?

He's garbage.

 

[ViewsFromThe6ix]

Can you tell me the powerball numbers while you're at it? While DeAngelo didn't get much of an opportunity, I can see why somebody would call him terrible.

Pionk, on the other hand, hasn't had enough games to be called terrible. He played better than we expected when called up. It'll be interesting to see how he looks in a full season, or at least in a role where he's counted on and not late season throw away games. At this point, it's impossible to call him terrible without just tossing out an opinion you can't back up. It's a prediction for the sake of making one.

Both aren't NHL defensemen. I don't know which one is worse, but they are both terrible.

 

[dwright5314]

DeAngelo could be one of the worst defenders I've ever seen.. kind of an issue when he is a defenseman

 

[Lays]

His advanced stats are completely garbage, what makes him defensively sound?

Eye test. Disagree all you want but he played with Marc Staal in a terrible defensive system under AV playing man to man. His positioning and defensive IQ needs work but his stick checking is very good.

 

[Halla]

D'Angelo isnt even an NHL calibre dman. he is so bad in his own end, it negates his offensive ability.

Kapanen only gets moved for a top 4 RHD upgrade. He is slated to play on line 3 with Johnsson and Kadri this year so his value should skyrocket

 

[Bluto]

Leafs say no due to value. Rangers take it and run; but Pionk and ADA would thrive with Babcock.

I think Pionk has the ability to be a Brian Campbell-esq player and ADA's ceiling is the Ulf Samuelsson type. Both are young. Pionk pulled some tough minutes against some top notch players last year and performed admirably. If ADA gets his head out of his ass he has the potential to be a real pest in the league. That being said, neither are as good as Nylander at this juncture of their careers.

 

[Kakko Schmakko]

I would love to trade DeAngelo for Kapanen.

 

[TGWL]

View attachment 135093

Both aren't NHL defensemen. I don't know which one is worse, but they are both terrible.

You do know the one on the left played less than 30 games, was used way above where he should be in the line-up due to injuries, and played on a team that just dumped JT Miller, McDonagh, Rick Nash, and Grabner, while going into rebuild mode.

If you're thinking we're calling him a #1/2 Defensemen, yeah, he's terrible, but that's not what we're hoping from him. Right now he's too raw too be called terrible.

 

[slg1963]

D'Angelo isnt even an NHL calibre dman. he is so bad in his own end, it negates his offensive ability.

Just like Gardiner , does that negate his offensive ability ?

 

[Raymoondo]

Just like Gardiner , does that negate his offensive ability ?

Gardiner's offensive output in the NHL was better than DeAngelo's in AHL, and Gardiner isn't nearly as bad at defence as some people on here make it out to be

 

[slg1963]

Gardiner's offensive output in the NHL was better than DeAngelo's in AHL, and Gardiner isn't nearly as bad at defence as some people on here make it out to be

Yeah keep telling yourself that , Gardiner is in most leaf trade proposals beacause of his lack of defense and contract demands. Did you hear that the Leafs are getting Karlsson, Ekman Larson,Trouba ,Carlo , Barrie, Parayko for Anderson ,Polak and a 2nd ....lol

 

[Raymoondo]

Yeah keep telling yourself that , Gardiner is in most leaf trade proposals beacause of his lack of defense and contract demands. Did you hear that the Leafs are getting Karlsson, Ekman Larson,Trouba ,Carlo , Barrie, Parayko for Anderson ,Polak and a 2nd ....lol

Not sure what the contract demands have to do with his defensive shortcomings, but the two reasons that you listed are definitely true. I never said that he was some Doughty-like monster on defence but you comparing him to DeAngelo is laughable. Not even going to address whatever that last sentence is supposed to be.

 

[NYR Viper]

View attachment 135093

Both aren't NHL defensemen. I don't know which one is worse, but they are both terrible.

Sample Size.....


Pionk played on the Rangers top-pairing after the trade deadline, way over his head and on a team who was consistently outshot due to the players they had playing. It's not a surprise he was on the ice for more shots against than for and that his underlying stats look poor. Watching him play, you can see he is a composed RD who can play in all situations and looks to make smart plays with the puck. He battles down low and around the net and plays with a bit of an edge. What we also saw was a guy coming in his first year of pro hockey playing FAR more games in a single season than he ever has in his career and not showing any signs of fatigue playing major minutes at the NHL level.

I get it, you want to look at stats and read it like a book to determine a players value. However like most stats, the background and size of the sample are incredibly important to begin to understand what those statistics are saying.