Confirmed Trade: [NYR/CAR] Adam Fox for 2019 2nd round pick and 2020 conditional 3rd

Dr Quincy

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Jun 19, 2005
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Not saying it should be held in perpetuity. But it’s a loophole that’s being exploited seemingly every year and it appears be benefiting a few select teams (i.e. NYR).

Having UFA rights should be earned especially if you’re drafted by an NHL team. Most NHL Players have to put in around 8+ years of service to have the privilege of picking a team, not some kid who just finished his degree and now has the same UFA privileges and the leverage to burn the first year of his contract to boot.

If it was me, at the very least, I would make these college kids wait 2 years after they finished school before they can become a UFA. That should be a fair timeframe for the team that used an actual draft pick on them.

Again, it's not a loop hole. A loop hole is by definition taking advantage of an ambiguity in order to get around the intended outcome. When a clause in a contract is explicitly written to spell out a team's rights and a player's rights and the terms of those rights, there is nothing ambiguous.

Secondly, your opinion on what should be the requirements of free agency is nice, but fairly irrelevant, as there is a document that already outlines it. As long as that is the agreement it's perfectly fine for either side to live by the terms of it.
 

Dr Quincy

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Jun 19, 2005
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He's not a dishonest jerk because he didn't want to play for the Hurricanes. He's a dishonest jerk because he lied about it.

Again, do I care? Hell no! We have 7 good NHL d-men right now with Bean/McKeown/Martin on the way. We don't need a PP QB, an RHD, or any other kind of d-man really. We're packed to the gills with good d-men. And hell, we got a great deal for him. Two 2nds, or a 2nd and a 3rd, considering the Canes recent draft history, could very well end up turning into a top 6 forward.

It's more about the way he went about it. Why not just be honest? "Yo, I don't want to play for your team. You should probably trade me." Ain't nothing hard about saying that.

So both sides made out in the deal.

Seems like there's no problem and the system works fine.
 

qwerty

Registered User
Feb 4, 2007
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Calgary
But it's the same thing for players who don't go to college! In fact it's even more favorable for teams when their draft picks go the NCAA route! Normally they have 2 years to sign a pick, they have 4 years to convince a NCAA player to sign. But any draft pick can become an UFA if they refuse to sign for 4 years after their draft, it's not just NCAA players.

That's ridiculous, controlling a players rights for 6 years. It's not even a loophole, I don't get why people don't understand this.

The ONLY thing that really makes it a bit different is that it's easier for guys in the NCAA to stay there and develop and play meaningful hockey rather than worry about aging out of the CHL and finding another team to play for until they become a free agent. A CHL player could refuse to sign and then go to the KHL and become a free agent after 4 years as well. Hell they might even be able to become a free agent sooner if they re-entered the draft and weren't picked again (can't quite remember if that's how it works).

Why is controlling a players rights for 4 years ok, but 6 would be so crazy? Make it 5 for everyone if you want then since there seems to be only 1 type of player that seems to be taking advantage of the system right now anyway. That would at least help deter college free agents from taking advantage of the current rules. These college players actually have a lot of leverage after year 3 which I don’t agree with. Why should Carolina have to trade Fox out of fear that they’ll get nothing out of the asset they acquired in a big trade.

At least with CHL players, they have to re-enter the draft so all teams have a shot at them. They can’t just stay with in juniors forever until they become a UFA.
 

Dr Quincy

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If certain people are taking advantage of a certain loophole, then it should be looked into. Change it for everyone then, not like it would effect anyone other than college players anyway because they seem to be the only ones taking advantage of this oversight. It’s like, “oh, I’ve been drafted by this crappy team/city, whatever, I’ll just finish my free school and then go wherever I want in August.” These are not the type of people who should be rewarded.
I wonder how all these billionaires who own teams got the money to buy them?

I imagine by being smart, hardworking, inventive, creative, determined and masterful businessmen who used leverage when they had it to get what they wanted.

It's just such a shame that they need to be protected from 20 year olds who have the same mindset.
 

w e l o s t b o y s

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To me, if teams want to prevent this from happening to them, they need to do a better job within their own organizations. Things are improving under Dundon, but there's no doubt that the Rangers were a better class of organization than the Canes under Karamanos, Adam Fox's hometown team aside. There are all kinds of things that the Rangers do around the team to support the players. They also have a really good reputation when it comes to college players... particularly ones playing in Boston, who definitely talk to each other. The team has worked hard to cultivate an attractive environment that goes beyond "we're the team in NYC"

Why should any team be restricted simply because they're using the advantages they've created for themselves?
What do the Rangers "do around the team" more than Carolina?
And have you looked at Carolina's blueline over the last few years? Filled with college players who earned their spot.
 

qwerty

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Feb 4, 2007
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Calgary
It’s not an oversight. It’s in place to protect the players from having their rights held overlong.
Personally I don’t find 1 or 2 years after they complete their college careers too long at all. If I had just finished school and was forced to wait a whole year or 2 afterwards to become a free agent, then I’d probably just sign with the team that drafted me rather than waste a whole year or 2 playing overseas for less money. That would be a way better set up to help protect the limited number of draft picks each team receives per year.

Then the NYR of the world wouldn’t be able to just scoop up all the high profile college free agents like Hayes, Vesey, Fox and etc that other organizations spent assets to claim. Guaranteed, higher ups for other franchises are having this exact same conversation.
 

The Crypto Guy

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Jun 26, 2017
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If certain people are taking advantage of a certain loophole, then it should be looked into. Change it for everyone then, not like it would effect anyone other than college players anyway because they seem to be the only ones taking advantage of this oversight. It’s like, “oh, I’ve been drafted by this crappy team/city, whatever, I’ll just finish my free school and then go wherever I want in August.” These are not the type of people who should be rewarded.
Every team has the same exact terms regarding this “loophole”
 
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qwerty

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I wonder how all these billionaires who own teams got the money to buy them?

I imagine by being smart, hardworking, inventive, creative, determined and masterful businessmen who used leverage when they had it to get what they wanted.

It's just such a shame that they need to be protected from 20 year olds who have the same mindset.
You think owners who have spent millions/billions on their personal franchises are ok with first round picks shafting them and signing with their competition? I guarantee you a lot GM’s aren’t happy that the 2nd or 3rd rounder they spent is thrown right in the garbage. There’s a reason a draft was put in place and why fans lost an entire season for a hard salary cap.

This situation may not look like a big deal to a lot of you, but there’s a lot of similarities to the pre lockout big market teams who signed most of the free agents that were available.
 

qwerty

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Every team has the same exact terms regarding this “loophole”
Yes and at least 1 team seems to be taking full advantage of this ”loophole.” Who knows how many more names in the future will be added alongside Hayes, Vesey, Fox and whoever else.
 

Dr Quincy

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You think owners who have spent millions/billions on their personal franchises are ok with first round picks shafting them and signing with their competition? I guarantee you a lot GM’s aren’t happy that the 2nd or 3rd rounder they spent is thrown right in the garbage. There’s a reason a draft was put in place and why fans lost an entire season for a hard salary cap.

This situation may not look like a big deal to a lot of you, but there’s a lot of similarities to the pre lockout big market teams who signed most of the free agents that were available.

The last time that happened was 11 years ago. I doubt they are losing sleep about it. And why wouldnt they be ok with it? They approved of it in the CBA themselves.

Thrown in the garbage? Fox's rights were an asset in 2 trades.

You realize that when you draft someone you don't actually get the person, right? I mean, you do understand that humans aren't property (at least I think you do). You get the player's rights. Some players choose not to sign. Just like some teams choose not to sign players they draft. You keep avoiding this point for some reason, perhaps because it's unpleasant.

Nobody is forced to sign a contract against their will. Accept it.
 
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Oscar Lindberg

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Dec 14, 2015
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The only people complaining about the so called NCAA “loophole” are fans of team’s who these guys will never want to play for

It’s not a loophole, move past it
 
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qwerty

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Feb 4, 2007
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The last time that happened was 11 years ago. I doubt they are losing sleep about it. And why wouldnt they be ok with it? They approved of it in the CBA themselves.

Thrown in the garbage? Fox's rights were an asset in 2 trades.

You realize that when you draft someone you don't actually get the person, right? I mean, you do understand that humans aren't property (at least I think you do). You get the player's rights. Some players choose not to sign. Just like some teams choose not to sign players they draft. You keep avoiding this point for some reason, perhaps because it's unpleasant.

Nobody is forced to sign a contract against their will. Accept it.
Yes I understand it all. Maybe you’re just a fan of a big market that just happens to have all of advantages that go with a big market team and don’t see the other side.

NYR may have thrown Carolina a bone, but they could have just as easily waited 1 year to add Fox for free like they did Vesey and Hayes.

Lastly, the NHLPA also happened to leave the Olympics out of this last CBA. You think they’re happy with how that worked out? Just because it was approved doesn’t mean it’s not an issue. It also happens that there’s been quite a few of these happening lately, so I guess we’ll all just have to wait and see how this situation turns out in the next CBA.
 

TGWL

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NYR may have thrown Carolina a bone, but they could have just as easily waited 1 year to add Fox for free like they did Vesey and Hayes.

Exactly, they didn't wait until they could get him for free. Instead they kept a good relationship going with Carolina. They offered more than they probably wanted and probably less than what Hurricanes wanted for Fox. It was a good deal that didn't sour a relationship.

I posted this before but for all the "we could have had him for free", nobody knows that to be certain. His besties are Bracco, Milano, McAvoy, and Keller. If Fox was given a choice to go anywhere, there's no guarantee that one of his friends doesn't try and convince him to come over.

It's not like NYR have taken every NCAA free agent. We didn't get Butcher, Kerfoot, or some of the other undrafted players. Also, how many undrafted NCAA free agents didn't pan out for us over the years?

I'm curious how many people who be against this rule had Fox received a top 10 pick. Is the burn forgotten about by the reward out weighing it, or would the ones against it still think it needs to be changed?
 

Hi ImHFNYR

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Jan 10, 2013
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That being said, I was being generous when I said his skating was average. He's got a choppy stride that appears to impact his top end speed. He was used multiple times in the defensive zone by more agile and quicker skaters, and not just Martin Necas who basically blew by him for an easy goal. Max Zimmer, another NCAA guy deked him out of his jock for a one-timer and Eetu Luostarinen worked past him for an opportunity as well. Suffice it to say, that unless his skating has improved remarkably in the last 8 months (it hasn't), skating is a distinct weakness. For a 5'10", 185 pound defender that's going to be an issue at the NHL level.
Was this routinely a problem? Bc having a dman get beat 3 times does not indicate a skating problem.
The best skaters in the world get caught out of position or flat footed from time to time each season.
 

IamNotADancer

Registered User
Feb 16, 2017
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If I was a fan of a particular team and I had a choice, I'd choose my favorite team.

Except he is a professional hockey player first and foremost. Most on this board would play for a dollar a year and even pay to put on the jersey of their favorite team. These guys need to think about what choice is the best for themselves and their families. Silly stuff like rivalries doesn't apply to those who need to make a living.
 

angry pirate

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Feb 9, 2009
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NHL ready at 23? You might be suggesting that young players don't get a shot at 19 or 20 and instead wait 2 or 3 more years to play.

I'm suggesting that if teams were able to draft for need and fill holes via the draft that you would be less likely to see cases like this. Adam Fox looks at Carolina and says, this isn't a good fit for me. I'm way down the depth chart. If Fox is drafted at 20, when he's NHL ready, he's more likely getting drafted by a team that has a need at RD and I think, would be more likely to stay with his drafted team.

i can see where Football and Basketball fans (and the internet generations, conditioned for immediate gratification) may find this system annoyingly different

as a long-time hockey and baseball fan, the long-view player development model is how its been for long time, and has served the teams and players well
it has adapted, these days more players in their young 20's are NHL ready than ever, and the teams have adapted

there are no perfect systems, i think this isn't that bad,
i just think the out-sized buzz, about the few NCAA expired-rights UFAs each year, has turned these corner-cases into undeserved headlines

Except this one is bad. This isn't baseball where teams have A, A+, AA, AAA and prospects actually go through all of those systems and make the MLB. Baseball drafts players and they go directly into their systems, and if they refuse to sign they'll go back into the draft. And they actually fill needs on all those teams throughout their organization. CHL players can rarely join an AHL team before their 20 year old season, most Europeans have contracts to at least 20 and outside the 1st round don't have out clauses thus don't even come to training camp and NCAA players have to forfeit their eligibility.

Hockey meanwhile, drafts these players at 18, with only about 3% playing in the NHL, another 4% might play at 19. And yet almost none of those 18 and 19 year-olds will have spent a day playing on a team inside their organizations farm system.

In my opinion, and I know it's only that, a system that would draft a player into an organization that needs him is not only better for the team but the player too. And that's not just for NCAA players. Just because there might be more instant gratification doesn't mean it's worse.
 

Shootertooter

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Feb 20, 2016
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I'm suggesting that if teams were able to draft for need and fill holes via the draft that you would be less likely to see cases like this. Adam Fox looks at Carolina and says, this isn't a good fit for me. I'm way down the depth chart. If Fox is drafted at 20, when he's NHL ready, he's more likely getting drafted by a team that has a need at RD and I think, would be more likely to stay with his drafted team.



Except this one is bad. This isn't baseball where teams have A, A+, AA, AAA and prospects actually go through all of those systems and make the MLB. Baseball drafts players and they go directly into their systems, and if they refuse to sign they'll go back into the draft. And they actually fill needs on all those teams throughout their organization. CHL players can rarely join an AHL team before their 20 year old season, most Europeans have contracts to at least 20 and outside the 1st round don't have out clauses thus don't even come to training camp and NCAA players have to forfeit their eligibility.

Hockey meanwhile, drafts these players at 18, with only about 3% playing in the NHL, another 4% might play at 19. And yet almost none of those 18 and 19 year-olds will have spent a day playing on a team inside their organizations farm system.

In my opinion, and I know it's only that, a system that would draft a player into an organization that needs him is not only better for the team but the player too. And that's not just for NCAA players. Just because there might be more instant gratification doesn't mean it's worse.

Fox was drafted by Calgary. 66OA in 2016.
I do like the idea that those drafted should go into the drafting teams system.
I see pro's and con's both ways.
 

TGWL

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Was this routinely a problem? Bc having a dman get beat 3 times does not indicate a skating problem.
The best skaters in the world get caught out of position or flat footed from time to time each season.
Just look at John Gilmour...
 

Tawnos

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Sep 10, 2004
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What do the Rangers "do around the team" more than Carolina?
And have you looked at Carolina's blueline over the last few years? Filled with college players who earned their spot.

I mean that in terms of the support systems the teams employ and the way they treat players within the organization, including the way they handle travel which is supposedly among the best in the league. The Rangers also have all kinds of health-related connections and resources they leverage, whether it's nutrition or consultations etc. And these resources are of the highest quality because money is no object to the team. Look up the story of Anton Stralman's asthma for an example of the Rangers doing something that other organization's didn't.

Again, the comparison was to the Karmanos-era and the perception of the Hurricanes as a result. Since Dundon came in, I know he overhauled the team locker room, hired a dietitian, and some other things that have improved the off-ice well-being of the players. I think it just takes some time to turn around the perception that exists. I'm really not trying to knock the Hurricanes at all.

It's just that when you listen to the stories around the Rangers and their free agent signings, it's clear that it's not simply about money and playing in NYC. Those things play a factor of course, but there's more to it. It's how the team operates and treats its players that ultimately led Vesey and Hayes to sign with them over other teams who offered the same contract.
 

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