Nylander Chronicles Part XXVI: Who caves first? Nylander, Dubas, or Bert?

[LeafsHome]

it frustrates me to know that we genuinely might never see the full line up we were all hyping up in the offseason when Tavares signed.

Matthews-Nylander
Tavares-Marner
Kadri-Kapanen

was just too filthy to be true

don't lose hope - it will happen

 

[56 Years No Cup]

After December 1, if Willy sits the year, we can always use that 13 million in cap space to make a run at an early pending ufa rental. As it looks now with standings some guys like Silfverberg or Panarin might be available. Even Karlson might be possible to grab midseason if the Sharks flounder a bit and his numbers remain mediocre.
We would likely lose some good young player(s) and picks for the temporary rental but it’s worth it.

Yep. I was thinking the same thing. It's not all doom and gloom.

 

[56 Years No Cup]

Canes: we are interested, what would it take to get you under contract?
Agent: x
Canes: we can do x. I’m going to work something out with the Leafs.

- hangs up, calls Dubas -

Canes: hey, Kyle, are you moving Willie?
Dubas: no
Canes: ok because we really like him
Dubas: he’s making ridiculous contract demands.
Canes: we don’t think they are ridiculous, in fact we are prepared to meet his demands
Dubas: ummm... hold please
Canes: Kyle?
Dubas:
Canes: look, I can hear you breathing. we can do this one of two ways. We can offer sheet him and you will be forced to match. Teams almost always match. Our picks will be late rounders so that’s fine with us.

Or we could do this like gentlemen. You aren’t going to sign him so let’s work something out. But you’ve got to work something out with me. If I hear you shopping him around... I’m going to offer sheet him.

Dubas: Brendan.... telephone call

It was stupid the first time you posted it, and it's not any better now.

 

[HoweHullOrr]

See your thoughts on what is elite are very different to a lot a people.
Some would call those guys "generational"

Even if I relax the standard, elite is a lot closer to the meaning of generational than very good is.

60% of elite/generational = very good player.

 

[LeafsHome]

When Matthews and Nylander return sometime in Dec it's going to be amazing watching this team strike all kinds of fear into opposing defenses - good times around the corner

 

[HoweHullOrr]

I’ve never seen someone use elite to describe the top 0.2%, so your definition seems a bit strict. I usually see it encompass the top 3-5%, and Willy has that potential.

60% (i.e., 40% less) of production of the players I referenced doesn't qualify as elite imo. Very good is the more accurate term.

 

[Advanced stats]

it frustrates me to know that we genuinely might never see the full line up we were all hyping up in the offseason when Tavares signed.

Matthews-Nylander
Tavares-Marner
Kadri-Kapanen

was just too filthy to be true

Kapanen has to play on line 1

Kapanen Matthews Nylander
Hyman Johnny marner
Marleau kadri Johansson.

 

[Liminality]

Even if I relax the standard, elite is a lot closer to the meaning of generational than very good is.

60% of elite/generational = very good player.

Again, I doubt a lot of people would agree with you with that description but at this point it's just opinion.

 

[HoweHullOrr]

Again, I doubt a lot of people would agree with you with that description but at this point it's just opinion.

I think a fanbase can be less objective than necessary when describing their players. We are more likely to use the term elite as Leaf fans because we like our guy and our team.

But yes, terms like this tend to be subjective.

 

[Liminality]

I think a fanbase can be less objective than necessary when describing their players. We are more likely to use the term elite as Leaf fans because we like our guy and our team.

But yes, terms like this tend to be subjective.

You're right but at the same time there's tons of elite players in the league. Maybe that term is thrown around too loosely but it's no different for other fan bases and has become the norm. Your way to evaluate is still in the minority.

 

[Egghead1999]

easy choice - definitely overpay by 1M. We signed useless clowns in the past and overpaid by more than 1M. The only reason money is an issue is because of Matthews and Marner going after him, otherwise he's get his 8M easily

If NHL had no cap, Nylander would have signed 8 x 8 on July 1. Then, this thread would have turned to "Nylander overpaid by x amount"

 

[Albz]

Elite? Maybe we use this term too lightly?

Crosby's 1st year - 102 points
Ovechkin's 1st year - 106 points
McDavid's 2nd year (limited games because of injury in his 1st year) - 100 points

Nylander has about 60% of the production of those elite players listed above. Is that elite and/or elite "potential" (interesting choice of words used perhaps to muddy the water)?

Exactly. There are about 20 other forward that id rather have over nylander. And if theg are elite than what in the world do you call crosby malkin ovi mcdavid, matthews eichel and lots more. Nylander is a bery good hockey player but not even close to elite.

 

[GoonieFace]

Exactly. There are about 20 other forward that id rather have over nylander. And if theg are elite than what in the world do you call crosby malkin ovi mcdavid, matthews eichel and lots more. Nylander is a bery good hockey player but not even close to elite.

Well said, people throw the term elite around like there is 6 elite players per team. Nylander is a very talented player, not elite. Alexander Semin was also very talented and put up points for awhile than got the big contracts and mailed it in.

 

[Coatsy79]

Canes: we are interested, what would it take to get you under contract?
Agent: x
Canes: we can do x. I’m going to work something out with the Leafs.

- hangs up, calls Dubas -

Canes: hey, Kyle, are you moving Willie?
Dubas: no
Canes: ok because we really like him
Dubas: he’s making ridiculous contract demands.
Canes: we don’t think they are ridiculous, in fact we are prepared to meet his demands
Dubas: ummm... hold please
Canes: Kyle?
Dubas:
Canes: look, I can hear you breathing. we can do this one of two ways. We can offer sheet him and you will be forced to match. Teams almost always match. Our picks will be late rounders so that’s fine with us.

Or we could do this like gentlemen. You aren’t going to sign him so let’s work something out. But you’ve got to work something out with me. If I hear you shopping him around... I’m going to offer sheet him.

Dubas: Brendan.... telephone call

Please this Canes angle is pure rubbish IMHO

What are they gonna do pay Willie 8m a year when they have Aho to re-sign, he'd demand at least that if not more

The Hurricanes aren't that kind of team

 

[Albz]

Well said, people throw the term elite around like there is 6 elite players per team. Nylander is a very talented player, not elite. Alexander Semin was also very talented and put up points for awhile than got the big contracts and mailed it in.

yeah. This hold up is all on nylanders father. Bet you William has nothing to do with this. Hes good friends with all the leaf players and knows that he will never get a better center to play with like matthews. But the father probably is greedy and wants extra money. I just dont see a young guy doing this for a whole dam month for some extra cash. Imo his father is the hold up.

 

[Confucius]

You NEVER trade a potential elite offensive player for a D - you just don't

Ask anybody Dmen much more valuable than wingers. I don't agree but most repeat the mantra.

 

[HoweHullOrr]

You're right but at the same time 1. there's tons of elite players in the league. Maybe that term is thrown around too loosely but it's no different for other fan bases and has become the norm. 2. Your way to evaluate is still in the minority.

1. If there's tons of elite players, then the term elite has no real significance or value.

2. You forgot to add or mention "imo" which would have been necessary to add veracity to your point. You even posted the same point yourself in #83.

We are in to this territory now.

 

[Liminality]

1. If there's tons of elite players, then the term elite has no real significance or value.

2. You forgot to add or mention "imo" which would have been necessary to add veracity to your point. You even posted the same point yourself in #83.

It still has significance, there's a lot of really talented players out there. I'm not going to argue semantics though. I still think Nylander has elite potential.

 

[Suntouchable13]

You're right but at the same time there's tons of elite players in the league. Maybe that term is thrown around too loosely but it's no different for other fan bases and has become the norm. Your way to evaluate is still in the minority.

There is only a few elite players. Elite players are the players that are excellent year in and year out for a long time (i.e. Hall of Fame level). Willy has potential, but he is not elite yet.

 

[Liminality]

There is only a few elite players. Elite players are the players that are excellent year in and year out for a long time (i.e. Hall of Fame level). Willy has potential, but he is not elite yet.

I disagree with that but that's okay.

 

[daveleaf]

Even if Car offer sheets him at 7.5x6, Leafs match, put him in the lineup, let him put up the numbers he feels he can and shops him by year end. Shanny won’t keep a player like that and Pesce plus some meh prospect is not good enough. Car will have to overpay to get him. I’m not part of the camp that believes Car will keep up this pace in the standings.

 

[HoweHullOrr]

It still has significance, there's a lot of really talented players out there. I'm not going to argue semantics though. I still think Nylander has elite potential.

Really talented, elite, etc. - you keep changing the terms or words around.

Are Dadonov, Ehlers, Anders Lee, Zucker "elite" (or elite potential whatever that means)? What about Duchene, Eberle, or J. Schwartz?

 

[ITM]

Please this Canes angle is pure rubbish IMHO

What are they gonna do pay Willie 8m a year when they have Aho to re-sign, he'd demand at least that if not more

The Hurricanes aren't that kind of team

Maybe Aho has a mindset of taking less to allow the Canes to sign players to improve the team's chances of success?

 

[ULF_55]

This is obviously, a good thing that Dubas isn't going to overpay ... means Matthews can't come in at anything over 11 million.

McDavid got 12.5 after winning major trophies. While the Calder is a major trophy it is based on the play of rookies a small population set of players.

Marner's going to come in at less than 10, he has no leverage and Draisaitl a center with 77 points got 8.5.

 

[Liminality]

Really talented, elite, etc. - you keep changing the terms or words around.

Are Dadonov, Ehlers, Anders Lee, Zucker "elite" (or elite potential whatever that means)? What about Duchene, Eberle, or J. Schwartz?

I don't keep changing the terms or words. We differ in opinion but that's okay. At least we can see that Crosby, Ovechkin and McDavid are not the only elite players in the league.