Confirmed with Link: [NYI/PHI] Andrew MacDonald for Matt Mangene, 2015 2nd and 2014 3rd round picks

Curufinwe

Registered User
Feb 28, 2013
55,502
42,244
CF% of 49 = horrible. Even though it's 4th on the team amongst defensemen, ahead of Gus and LSchenn and way ahead of Grossmann.

And don't bother taking into account which forwards he plays with even though forwards are the ones who generate most of the shot attempts that we are supposed to judge the performance of defensemen on. That would be too advanced.
 

JDinkalage Morgoone

U of South Flurrida
Oct 7, 2008
15,010
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308 Negra Arroyo Ln.
I believe you're able to rely much more heavily on the eye test in the NHL, and MacDonald has looked pretty good in the games I've watched. Sure, he has a gaffe here and there, but most defensemen do. If he didn't, he'd be a top pairing defender.
 

FLYERSFAN18

Registered User
May 31, 2008
2,760
912
Pennsylvania
I wonder if MacDonald wants to test the Free Agency market? I seem to remember Grossmann being signed to an extension rather quickly after coming the the Flyers. Maybe I am wrong about that. Does anyone remember.

Edit: just did a google search and it seems we traded for him in mid february and signed him april 6
 

BackToTheBrierePatch

Nope not today.
Feb 19, 2003
65,865
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Concord, New Hampshire
I wonder if MacDonald wants to test the Free Agency market? I seem to remember Grossmann being signed to an extension rather quickly after coming the the Flyers. Maybe I am wrong about that. Does anyone remember.

Well if he does then the Flyers will have to overpay to keep him out of it.
he has looked good but I don't think hes looked 5 million per year good.
 

Cmoneyflyguy

Registered User
Jul 13, 2005
2,398
87
Wayne, Pa
I wonder if MacDonald wants to test the Free Agency market? I seem to remember Grossmann being signed to an extension rather quickly after coming the the Flyers. Maybe I am wrong about that. Does anyone remember.

Edit: just did a google search and it seems we traded for him in mid february and signed him april 6
homer is already on record saying he wants to wait a bit before beginning talks.

PS - CORSI!!!!!
 

NHLAlert

@nhl_alert
Jul 21, 2012
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If they do resign him, I hope it's not a longer deal than 3 years.

They flyers have Ghost, Hagg, Alt, Vasiliev, Morin and a few others in the pipe line. Considering he is going to command in excess of 4 mil, I would much rather wait and give his spot to Gus next year. Maybe keep the same defense and then the following year hope one or a few of the mentioned can be challenge for a spot and for much less money
 

Jack Straw

Moving much too slow.
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Jul 19, 2010
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If they do resign him, I hope it's not a longer deal than 3 years.

They flyers have Ghost, Hagg, Alt, Vasiliev, Morin and a few others in the pipe line. Considering he is going to command in excess of 4 mil, I would much rather wait and give his spot to Gus next year. Maybe keep the same defense and then the following year hope one or a few of the mentioned can be challenge for a spot and for much less money

I don't see that happening. MacDonald is only 2 years older than Gus and he has accomplished much more in the NHL. I think we can say goodbye to Hal Gill after this year and see both Gus and MacDonald back. Although I don't think Gus has a long term future with the Flyers. They think he's too small and with Morin, Hagg, and Ghost coming up I don't see the need for Gus beyond another year or two.
 

NHLAlert

@nhl_alert
Jul 21, 2012
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I don't see that happening. MacDonald is only 2 years older than Gus and he has accomplished much more in the NHL. I think we can say goodbye to Hal Gill after this year and see both Gus and MacDonald back. Although I don't think Gus has a long term future with the Flyers. They think he's too small and with Morin, Hagg, and Ghost coming up I don't see the need for Gus beyond another year or two.

Me either. I just hate to give MacD a lot of money to play on the third pairing. Between him and Schenn, that's an expensive pair for a third pairing. I was just hoping they could use Gus as a stopgap for a year or two unless he can really prove himself(which he probably won't here).
 

BackToTheBrierePatch

Nope not today.
Feb 19, 2003
65,865
24,272
Concord, New Hampshire
If they do resign him, I hope it's not a longer deal than 3 years.

They flyers have Ghost, Hagg, Alt, Vasiliev, Morin and a few others in the pipe line. Considering he is going to command in excess of 4 mil, I would much rather wait and give his spot to Gus next year. Maybe keep the same defense and then the following year hope one or a few of the mentioned can be challenge for a spot and for much less money

don't think Gus will be back next year. Not that I like that thought but given how little he is being used he will probably be better off somewhere else next year. If you're Gus do you even sign your QO?
 

Clown Baby*

Guest
When Andrew MacDonald was acquired from the New York Islanders for two draft picks, there was a large outcry from the advanced stat community. MacD's possession metrics were horrible on the Island. Many wondered if this was yet another medicore possession d-man being added to a mediocre defense in Philly. The counter argument goes something like this.

MacDonald was over-exposed on a bad team. He'll be much better in a reduced role against easier match-ups on the Flyers.

Its been 10 games since MacD's acquisition, which is a reasonable amount of time to start judging his performance. Charlie O'Conner of Broad Street Hockey has confirmed that Berube has given MacDonald much softer minutes. But how do his numbers look in those minutes? To put it bluntly, his numbers have been atrocious.

MacDonald's shot metrics haven't improved. In fact, they've gotten worse.
link

Can't wait for this turd to get a fat contract from the Flyers...
 

Prongo

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Jun 5, 2008
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philadelphia
Corsi isn't the best way to judge a player either I feel. Hockey is a game of 5 vs 5 and not 1 on 5, so if a player is on the ice for more shots against it immediately makes his stats worse? What about the other 4 that were out there with him not only during that shift but the rest of his shifts through the game? I said it before but Corsi I feel is more of a team stat. I understand the fascination with improving the everyday fans knowledge on the overall game but we can't sit here and act like they are the end all of stats like some have. NHL teams are using them but if they thought Macdonald was such a bad addition he wouldn't have been traded or even playing anymore in the NHL. He isn't nearly as bad a people think and let's remember one of the more respectable GM's in this league(Peter Chiarelli) was extremely interested in him as well.

Macdonald is a #4 dman who isn't that physical but can escape traffic with his skating ability. Even those videos of his play are somewhat silly to post about. Chara gets turned out by JVR's speed as well( I'll even admit JVR's play was one of the worse one on this list because he was flat footed and his gap was way to close, gave JVR the alley next to him to easily go right around). The one where he was "beaten to the net" by Moore he actually made a nice play on Moore's stick that could have saved a goal because he didn't get a clean shot off. I don't know what happened prior for the team to get into that position as well. It happens through the pace of the year. He isn't perfect but he will help with the transition out of the defensive zone. Also what is not taken into account on those other plays is how the other players on the team reacted to the play. Go look at Boston or any other extremely solid team, when one player gets beats there is always someone else there to support them. It's more of a system thing than an individual thing.

Look at the "beaten wide by Bodie" play on that list. Defense are always taught keep the player to the outside. Bodie was forced wide and took a shot that Mason allowed a huge rebound on right in front of his net. Then the team collapsed all around and gave Gardiner all the time in the world to fire his wrister through. Yet, somehow we blame that on Macdonald? Also, that looked like it could have been a turnover in the neutral zone by the forwards.
 
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Curufinwe

Registered User
Feb 28, 2013
55,502
42,244
MacDonald's shot metrics haven't improved. In fact, they've gotten worse.

Guy spoke too soon. Mac's Corsi as a Flyer is now 193-190 for a CF% of 50.4, 8th best on the team.
 

Striiker

Former Flyers Fan
Jun 2, 2013
89,442
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I swear half the time when people use advanced stats in arguments they do so because they're not capable of thinking for themselves and have to be told what to think, even though they don't know how to actually apply these numbers in the right way. They look at a "-" in front of a number and immediately think that a player is bad. Pay attention during games and you'll learn something.

Now if you use the stats to backup your argument, that's obviously fine, but if just copy/pasting numbers is all you can do...
 

bigd

Registered User
Jul 27, 2003
6,853
240
The head coach is giving him lots of ice time. That alone indicates a level of trust. That's what every player hopes for when he changes teams. You may be able to sign him at just north of what the Islanders offered. That's the obvious starting point in these negotiations.
 

Protest

C`est La Vie
Mar 28, 2008
7,410
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Deptford, NJ
I swear half the time when people use advanced stats in arguments they do so because they're not capable of thinking for themselves and have to be told what to think, even though they don't know how to actually apply these numbers in the right way. They look at a "-" in front of a number and immediately think that a player is bad. Pay attention during games and you'll learn something.

Now if you use the stats to backup your argument, that's obviously fine, but if just copy/pasting numbers is all you can do...

:nod:

The biggest problem with advanced statistics is that no one questions them. No one thinks about them, or tries to add context to them. What makes Corsi better than any other stat? It has a larger sample size than goals/points, but it's still skewed by the people you play with. Corsi in the aggregate of a team context is telling, but for individual players it's not really that helpful.

In baseball, advance stats work for batting, they work for a large amount of pitching statistics, and they kind of work for defensive statistics if you look at say a 5 year sample size. Even then you're only getting an idea and not a clear picture.

When applying them to a fluid game like hockey where guys play at most 1/3 of the game, your stats are going to be more like baseball's defensive statistics. You're adding many variables to the equation, and it complicates things.

If you're going to use advance hockey statistics you have to use several of them and add context.

Corsi isn't the best way to judge a player either I feel. Hockey is a game of 5 vs 5 and not 1 on 5, so if a player is on the ice for more shots against it immediately makes his stats worse? What about the other 4 that were out there with him not only during that shift but the rest of his shifts through the game? I said it before but Corsi I feel is more of a team stat.

I've looked at the Corsi numbers, GF, GA, GF%, etc from the past 3-5 seasons. Almost all are heavily skewed by team, system, and teammates. Even the relative numbers.

Corsi Relative was the best of the group, but even then you had players grouped together with their common linemates, so how do you determine which of them is the driving force? Maybe it's they're work together that makes effective, and not their individual efforts.
 

Prongo

Beer
Jun 5, 2008
22,567
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philadelphia
Ferraro on TSN radio saying he is worried MacDonald might sign with the Leafs in the offseason and he doesn't like his style of play. He also said the price tag could be 5.5 per year. That's too much.
 

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