Confirmed Trade: [NSH/OTT/COL] Duchene to OTT, Turris to NSH, 1st, 2nd, 3rd, Bowers Girard Hammond Kamenev to COL

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Mortiest Morty

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Not really. Turris wasn't coming back next season... which means even if Duchene walks, they paid a 1st, Bowers and a 3rd (although that was more to get rid of Hammond then anything) to get 1.8 years of Duchene. Teams have paid a lot more than that for rentals that lasted a lot less time then the 19 months that they'll have Duchene for.

Technically they traded the 1st+3rd+Bowers+Hammond for a 1 year rental of Duchene and a slight upgrade for ~68 games. You can't completely disregard Turris just because he wasn't sticking around past this year. Still not an insane price for a 1 year rental and the ability to flip Duchene again next year if necessary.
 

ijuka

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Not really. Turris wasn't coming back next season... which means even if Duchene walks, they paid a 1st, Bowers and a 3rd (although that was more to get rid of Hammond then anything) to get 1.8 years of Duchene. Teams have paid a lot more than that for rentals that lasted a lot less time then the 19 months that they'll have Duchene for.
... Your math is off. See, they actually did trade Turris to Nashville for Girard, a second and Kamenev. You must count these three assets as a part of the price Senators paid for Duchene, as well. You can't just "well he was gonna walk anyway" it because you did get these assets in return for him.

Yes, it's on paper a three-way trade, but in reality we first had a Nashville-Senators trade and then a second trade immediately after between Senators and Avalanche.
 

topshelf15

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... Your math is off. See, they actually did trade Turris to Nashville for Girard, a second and Kamenev. You must count these three assets as a part of the price Senators paid for Duchene, as well. You can't just "well he was gonna walk anyway" it because you did get these assets in return for him.

Yes, it's on paper a three-way trade, but in reality we first had a Nashville-Senators trade and then a second trade immediately after between Senators and Avalanche.
Yep we gave up a boatload of futures,and that was a price we were willing to pay.We got the player we wanted ,at the term we were most comfortable with.Now most other teams may not have gone with such a large package.And that is fine ,but in the end what is bolded is all that matters to our management staff.
 

Riptide

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... Your math is off. See, they actually did trade Turris to Nashville for Girard, a second and Kamenev. You must count these three assets as a part of the price Senators paid for Duchene, as well. You can't just "well he was gonna walk anyway" it because you did get these assets in return for him.

Yes, it's on paper a three-way trade, but in reality we first had a Nashville-Senators trade and then a second trade immediately after between Senators and Avalanche.

No, my math is pretty accurate. And no you do not count those assets, because Ottawa was never going to see those. Ottawa was not going to trade Turris for futures. Which means his 'value' with regards to what futures he could have fetched is basically meaningless.
 

PAZ

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... Your math is off. See, they actually did trade Turris to Nashville for Girard, a second and Kamenev. You must count these three assets as a part of the price Senators paid for Duchene, as well. You can't just "well he was gonna walk anyway" it because you did get these assets in return for him.

Yes, it's on paper a three-way trade, but in reality we first had a Nashville-Senators trade and then a second trade immediately after between Senators and Avalanche.

Context matters.

Ottawa wasn't going to go to trade Turris after making it to the ECF last season unless they had a replacement player, that player being Duchene. Turris to Nashville only happens if Duchene to Ottawa happens.

The trade was basically an upgrade at center who is signed for an extra year for 1st + Bowers + 3rd. If Duchene wasn't available, Ottawa would've just kept Turris and let him walk during free agency.
 

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No, my math is pretty accurate. And no you do not count those assets, because Ottawa was never going to see those. Ottawa was not going to trade Turris for futures. Which means his 'value' with regards to what futures he could have fetched is basically meaningless.

No... his value wasn’t meaningless. His inclusion in this trade is the only reason you got Duchene. You can’t just pretend you didn’t give up a 50+ point center here, even if he was only sticking around for the remainder of the year.
 

umma gumma

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Context matters.

Ottawa wasn't going to go to trade Turris after making it to the ECF last season unless they had a replacement player, that player being Duchene. Turris to Nashville only happens if Duchene to Ottawa happens.

The trade was basically an upgrade at center who is signed for an extra year for 1st + Bowers + 3rd. If Duchene wasn't available, Ottawa would've just kept Turris and let him walk during free agency.
The 3rd was for taking on Hammond's salary. Its the two firsts that are linked to Duchene.
 

Charliebox

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Turris was never going to be 'the guy' long-term down the middle in Ottawa. Ever since Macarthur went down and the Ryan-Turris-Mac line got split up, he's struggled to find chemistry with pretty much every single winger on the Sens. I'm not saying that's his fault but it is what is it.

Unfortunately, Turris just isn't strong on the puck and his speed isn't enough to overcome it to be a bona fide 1LC. He's obviously a great top 6 player, but not a 1LC. In a few years Turris is likely going to lose a step (as all players do in their 30's) and that could be all it takes for him to not even be that effective anymore. As a center, if you aren't big and strong, you have to be fast.

Turris just doesn't win puck battles, period. He generally produces off the rush. If he's even just 10% slower, those points could dry up also.

Duchene, on the other hand, is stronger on the puck and obviously has speed to burn. If Duchene loses a step in his 30's, he will still have above average NHL speed. Outside of Jagr, who's a freak, it's generally the faster players who play well into their mid 30's.

At the end of the day, I wouldn't have been comfortable giving Turris 6x6 either. Let's say Duchene plays well here and gets 7x6 next summer. To me, one million more is not much for that type of upgrade.

From Dorion's comments about basically being buddies with Duchene's agent and how excited Matt is to be here, it seems like resigning him this summer will be a foregone conclusion.
 

PAZ

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No... his value wasn’t meaningless. His inclusion in this trade is the only reason you got Duchene. You can’t just pretend you didn’t give up a 50+ point center here, even if he was only sticking around for the remainder of the year.

Gotta disagree with you here. If Otttawa never planned to trade Turris, those assets would have never come to fruition without this trade. You can't just solely look at the trade.

In the ROR trade, it was ROR + McGinn for Zadarov + Grigorenko + Compher + 31st. However, Sakic traded for Soderberg a day before to take ROR's spot, and evaluated the whole transaction as:

ROR + McGinn + 6th for Zadarov + Grigorenko + Compher + 31st + Soderberg.
 

EdAVSfan

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Gotta disagree with you here. If Otttawa never planned to trade Turris, those assets would have never come to fruition without this trade. You can't just solely look at the trade.

In the ROR trade, it was ROR + McGinn for Zadarov + Grigorenko + Compher + 31st. However, Sakic traded for Soderberg a day before to take ROR's spot, and evaluated the whole transaction as:

ROR + McGinn + 6th for Zadarov + Grigorenko + Compher + 31st + Soderberg.

Think of it this way.
First, Ottawa and Colorado traded.
Then, Colorado and Nashville traded.

The sens moved Turris, Bowers, 1st and a 3rd for Duchene.
 

topshelf15

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Think of it this way.
First, Ottawa and Colorado traded.
Then, Colorado and Nashville traded.

The sens moved Turris, Bowers, 1st and a 3rd for Duchene.
Yep whatever was given to COL ,from NSH .Had nothing to do with us
 

PAZ

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Think of it this way.
First, Ottawa and Colorado traded.
Then, Colorado and Nashville traded.

The sens moved Turris, Bowers, 1st and a 3rd for Duchene.

That's the literal trade. But Ottawa never would have gotten those assets from Turris unless a replacement was included in the trade. From Ottawa's perspective, it was either:

1 year of Turris
Bowers
2018 1st
2018 3rd
Hammond

or

2 years of Duchene.

There wasn't a third option of just trading Turris.

Edit: Forgot Bowers
 
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EdAVSfan

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Yep whatever was given to COL ,from NSH .Had nothing to do with us

Well that's the thing with a 3 way. The trade could go either direction.

Ottawa trades Turris to Nashville for their package.

Then Ottawa adds it's own pieces to trade for Duchene.

Nashville traded their 3 pieces for Turris.

Ottawa, in reality, traded the entire package Colorado got (all 7 pieces) for Duchene.
 

topshelf15

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That's the literal trade. But Ottawa never would have gotten those assets from Turris unless a replacement was included in the trade. From Ottawa's perspective, it was either:

1 year of Turris
2018 1st
2018 3rd
Hammond

or

2 years of Duchene.

There wasn't a third option of just trading Turris.
Bingo...We paid a good price,but its one that we had to pay in the end.You guys did well ,we are happy ,and NSH is happy
 

topshelf15

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Well that's the thing with a 3 way. The trade could go either direction.

Ottawa trades Turris to Nashville for their package.

Then Ottawa adds it's own pieces to trade for Duchene.

Nashville traded their 3 pieces for Turris.

Ottawa, in reality, traded the entire package Colorado got (all 7 pieces) for Duchene.
We gave you a package of Turris our 1st,3rd and Hammond.After that anything else was done by you guys,you could have resigned Turris if you wanted.But u decided to flip him ,we just did the dirty work thats all
 

EdAVSfan

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We gave you a package of Turris our 1st,3rd and Hammond.After that anything else was done by you guys,you could have resigned Turris if you wanted.But u decided to flip him ,we just did the dirty work thats all
It doesn't matter which direction you go in.

It's all the same in the end.

Whether you look at it that Colorado traded Turris afterwards or Ottawa traded Turris beforehand, the end result is the same.

I prefer to look at it that Ottawa traded the entire 7 piece package for Duchene, but in the end, it's all the same.
 

topshelf15

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It doesn't matter which direction you go in.

It's all the same in the end.

Whether you look at it that Colorado traded Turris afterwards or Ottawa traded Turris beforehand, the end result is the same.

I prefer to look at it that Ottawa traded the entire 7 piece package for Duchene, but in the end, it's all the same.
We gave you 4 pieces ,that you turned into 3 more.......LOL
 

tucker3434

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Gotta disagree with you here. If Otttawa never planned to trade Turris, those assets would have never come to fruition without this trade. You can't just solely look at the trade.

In the ROR trade, it was ROR + McGinn for Zadarov + Grigorenko + Compher + 31st. However, Sakic traded for Soderberg a day before to take ROR's spot, and evaluated the whole transaction as:

ROR + McGinn + 6th for Zadarov + Grigorenko + Compher + 31st + Soderberg.

Yeah, but you can’t just dismiss his value in this trade, and pretend he doesnt exist. Regardless of what Ottawa would have done with him, it’s clear that he has solid value on his own. Ottawa didn’t just add 60 points to their roster this year. They added 60 and subtracted 50. The last part isn’t meaningless.
 

Riptide

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Gotta disagree with you here. If Otttawa never planned to trade Turris, those assets would have never come to fruition without this trade. You can't just solely look at the trade.

This.

I have a watch that is appraised at 9k (gift from my elderly grandfather). But unless it gets stolen (insurance) or I sell it, all I have is a watch. The fact that it's 'worth' 9k is meaningless. Eventually this watch will be passed down to someone else in my family. At no point in time do I ever have that 9k...

It's the same with Turris. Ottawa wasn't going to trade him for futures, because if they did they would have killed their season, and potentially hindered their chances at re-signing Karlsson. Which means while he has that value... it's meaningless, because they never would have seen it.
 
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Starat327

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This.

I have a watch that is appraised at 9k (gift from my elderly grandfather). But unless it gets stolen (insurance) or I sell it, all I have is a watch. The fact that it's 'worth' 9k is meaningless. Eventually this watch will be passed down to someone else in my family. At no point in time do I ever have that 9k...

It's the same with Turris. Ottawa wasn't going to trade him for futures, because if they did they would have killed their season, and potentially hindered their chances at re-signing Karlsson. Which means while he has that value... it's meaningless, because they never would have seen it.

This is 100% right, and has been posted a few times in this thread. Turris had value, but the value was inconsequential because it was never going to be realized. They trade Turris for futures at the deadline, miss the playoffs, and potentially risk showing Karlsson they aren't serious about competing, risking his res-signing. If we're going to quantify the value of a trade that was never going to happen, then we need to also quantify the value of keeping your marquis player because you showed him you were serious about winning (or at least, trying to).
 
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