Speculation: Now what do we do?

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HoseEmDown

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Mar 25, 2012
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Yup. We can go cheap and get cheap results.

And you know this how? When has Vasilevskiy been given more than a few starts in a row besides to the Stanley Cup Champs who nearly doubled our shots every game? He kept us in that series why can't he keep us a playoff team?
 

DFC

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Sep 26, 2013
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And you know this how? When has Vasilevskiy been given more than a few starts in a row besides to the Stanley Cup Champs who nearly doubled our shots every game? He kept us in that series why can't he keep us a playoff team?

Vasy is a big part of the reason we get doubled in shots when he's in the net.

Add: Did a quick count here http://espn.go.com/nhl/team/schedule/_/name/tb/tampa-bay-lightning so it could be wrong, but by my count, we faced 35+ shots six times when Vasy started in the regular season. Just four times when Bishop started, despite the fact that he started almost 3x as many games. (There's also one game where Bish started and Vasy finished that we gave up 35+)

Vasy's rebound control and general game management is an issue. He's not ready to be our starter.
 
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tjs*

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Mar 18, 2016
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Yup. We can go cheap and get cheap results.

Run the numbers and show me the team you expect to put in front of Bishop without the cap going up by 2017. Nobody wants to lose Bish but those of us who have actually taken the time to estimate what it will cost to resign everybody are in agreement that our team going forward looks better without Bishop than with him. If you're going to take a contrary position then the least you can do is base it on more than just wishful thinking.

For a starting point let's use these contract estimates; if there are any you'd care to debate then we can do that, and once a general consensus has been reached you can assemble your team with Bishop:

Estimated free agent contracts:
Bishop - $7M
Vasilevskiy - $2M
Hedman - $8M
Kucherov - $7.5M
Johnson, Palat, Drouin - $6M each
Killorn - $4.5M
Namestnikov - $2M
Brown - $1.5M
Sustr - $2M
Boyle - $2M
Koekkoek - $1M
for everybody else just say what you think we'll pay them

Under contract through 2017:
Callahan - $5.8M
Carle - $5.5M
Filppula - $5M
Garrison - $4.6M
Stralman - $4.5M
Coburn - $3.7M
Condra - $1.25M

Estimated cap assuming the escalator clause is used this summer and no increase occurs by 2017: $72.8M

There, all the hard work has been done. Now all you have to do is show us the roster you put together around Bishop.
 

LTIR Trickery

Plz stop pucks
Jun 27, 2007
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Vasy is a big part of the reason we get doubled in shots when he's in the net.

Add: Did a quick count here http://espn.go.com/nhl/team/schedule/_/name/tb/tampa-bay-lightning so it could be wrong, but by my count, we faced 35+ shots six times when Vasy started in the regular season. Just four times when Bishop started, despite the fact that he started almost 3x as many games. (There's also one game where Bish started and Vasy finished that we gave up 35+)

Vasy's rebound control and general game management is an issue. He's not ready to be our starter.
He isn't the best puckhandler but that is a massive exaggeration.
 

DFC

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Sep 26, 2013
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Run the numbers and show me the team you expect to put in front of Bishop without the cap going up by 2017. Nobody wants to lose Bish but those of us who have actually taken the time to estimate what it will cost to resign everybody are in agreement that our team going forward looks better without Bishop than with him. If you're going to take a contrary position then the least you can do is base it on more than just wishful thinking.

For a starting point let's use these contract estimates; if there are any you'd care to debate then we can do that, and once a general consensus has been reached you can assemble your team with Bishop:

Estimated free agent contracts:
Bishop - $7M
Vasilevskiy - $2M
Hedman - $8M
Kucherov - $7.5M
Johnson, Palat, Drouin - $6M each
Killorn - $4.5M
Namestnikov - $2M
Brown - $1.5M
Sustr - $2M
Boyle - $2M
Koekkoek - $1M
for everybody else just say what you think we'll pay them

Under contract through 2017:
Callahan - $5.8M
Carle - $5.5M
Filppula - $5M
Garrison - $4.6M
Stralman - $4.5M
Coburn - $3.7M
Condra - $1.25M

Estimated cap assuming the escalator clause is used this summer and no increase occurs by 2017: $72.8M

There, all the hard work has been done. Now all you have to do is show us the roster you put together around Bishop.

As I've said, if it eventually costs us Palat, then I think that's a pill we have to swallow.
 

DFC

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Sep 26, 2013
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He isn't the best puckhandler but that is a massive exaggeration.

I don't think it is. I don't think it's a coincidence that we face a lot more shots when Vasy's in net, despite the fact that he plays weaker teams.

We can tell ourselves the team just plays lazy in front of him, but it's likely a bigger issue than that. Especially since this isn't the first goalie we've seen it with.
 

Volodya Krutov

Lost Cosmonaut
Jan 18, 2012
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We have a team built to win in front of Bishop, what we need is a team capable to keep winning without him. We're too highly dependent of one player, and when this very player goes down, we're ending up getting screwed. I think we're all okay if Yzerman can re-sign Bishop wihtout losing the only few skaters having an offensive impact on this team, Bishop will probably make $7M (and he's worth it) though, and with the cap not going up it's likely one of the Palat,, TJ, Kuch, Killer, Drouin, Stralman or Hedman will soon be gone, making our main weakness even worse, so ending up even more relying on Bishop.

To avoid the elite goalie addiction, you need depth, particularly forward depth. Adding depth is supposed to be the last piece of building a cup winning team. All the hard work in Tampa has been done by Yzerman already, top pair defense, top 6 forward, they'd be good enough if only they had a decent supporting cast.
We'll add depth only by saving cap-space though. Vasilevskiy is not elite, not yet, but he's already above average and could break out sooner than some expect. Not next year probably, but he'll keep trending upwards every year. We're/will be in cap hell no matter how you spin it, trading Bishop or another core player, hard decisions will be made. I personally see the writing on the wall though, if we keep Bishop, despite being our MVP, we'll end up in a few years something like the New York Rangers. In fact, we just pulled a Rangers type of playoffs campaign already.
 

DFC

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Sep 26, 2013
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We have a team built to win in front of Bishop, what we need is a team capable to keep winning without him. We're too highly dependent of one player, and when this very player goes down, we're ending up getting screwed. I think we're all okay if Yzerman can re-sign Bishop wihtout losing the only few skaters having an offensive impact on this team, Bishop will probably make $7M (and he's worth it) though, and with the cap not going up it's likely one of the Palat,, TJ, Kuch, Killer, Drouin, Stralman or Hedman will soon be gone, making our main weakness even worse, so ending up even more relying on Bishop.

To avoid the elite goalie addiction, you need depth, particularly forward depth. Adding depth is supposed to be the last piece of building a cup winning team. All the hard work in Tampa has been done by Yzerman already, top pair defense, top 6 forward, they'd be good enough if only they had a decent supporting cast.
We'll add depth only by saving cap-space though. Vasilevskiy is not elite, not yet, but he's already above average and could break out sooner than some expect. Not next year probably, but he'll keep trending upwards every year. We're/will be in cap hell no matter how you spin it, trading Bishop or another core player, hard decisions will be made. I personally see the writing on the wall though, if we keep Bishop, despite being our MVP, we'll end up in a few years something like the New York Rangers. In fact, we just pulled a Rangers type of playoffs campaign already.

And if we lose Bishop, we take a big step backward. It won't be a given that we'll make the playoffs. I don't think we'd have made it this year with Vasy in net.

When Vasy learns to manage games, he'll be a great 1A. But that could still be a while off. We play on our heels when he's in net, and a big reason is because he's giving up so many second and third opportunities, whereas Bishop just kills the play or moves the puck himself.
 

Sky04

Registered User
Jan 8, 2009
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We have a team built to win in front of Bishop, what we need is a team capable to keep winning without him. We're too highly dependent of one player, and when this very player goes down, we're ending up getting screwed. I think we're all okay if Yzerman can re-sign Bishop wihtout losing the only few skaters having an offensive impact on this team, Bishop will probably make $7M (and he's worth it) though, and with the cap not going up it's likely one of the Palat,, TJ, Kuch, Killer, Drouin, Stralman or Hedman will soon be gone, making our main weakness even worse, so ending up even more relying on Bishop.

To avoid the elite goalie addiction, you need depth, particularly forward depth. Adding depth is supposed to be the last piece of building a cup winning team. All the hard work in Tampa has been done by Yzerman already, top pair defense, top 6 forward, they'd be good enough if only they had a decent supporting cast.
We'll add depth only by saving cap-space though. Vasilevskiy is not elite, not yet, but he's already above average and could break out sooner than some expect. Not next year probably, but he'll keep trending upwards every year. We're/will be in cap hell no matter how you spin it, trading Bishop or another core player, hard decisions will be made. I personally see the writing on the wall though, if we keep Bishop, despite being our MVP, we'll end up in a few years something like the New York Rangers. In fact, we just pulled a Rangers type of playoffs campaign already.

100% agreed.
 

Volodya Krutov

Lost Cosmonaut
Jan 18, 2012
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And if we lose Bishop, we take a big step backward. It won't be a given that we'll make the playoffs. I don't think we'd have made it this year with Vasy in net.

When Vasy learns to manage games, he'll be a great 1A. But that could still be a while off. We play on our heels when he's in net, and a big reason is because he's giving up so many second and third opportunities, whereas Bishop just kills the play or moves the puck himself.


You and me both already discussed they were coasting in the regular season. Seeing how they instantly switched into a more aggressive game, it seems highly probable they controlled their pace more than anything and that's brilliant management, but not unprecedented.

Teams can win cups with goalies of Vasy's caliber nonetheless. At least when they're properly built. Vasy outplayed Murray in the ECF and look what happened ? Pittisburgh's depth still steamrolled us. Just to make it clear: Despite his rebound control issues if Vasy was playing for Pittsburgh and we still had Bishop, we'd been out in 6 games. The gap was that big between our skaters and theirs.
Our scoring depth is lackadaisical and as much of a legitimate reason we lost 2 times in a row to the Cup winners as Bishop's injuries. When our top 6 doesn't score against those very deep teams, we're finished. How did they beat us ? With their scoring depth. It's as simple as that.

We are at crossroads here, with two different blueprints before our eyes. Either we give a close to 30 years goalie the contract of his life (make no mistake about it, he won't ask for less) and pray he'll stay elite for as long as possible or we keep the skating core intact and make the moves to add that crucial depth and MAYBE this time, we'll make our not-so-elite-goalie's life a bit less miserable when we'll face a cup contending team.
 

Volodya Krutov

Lost Cosmonaut
Jan 18, 2012
8,135
1,036
Just to simplify my thought:

With an healthy Bishop, we're likely to make to the ECSF every year or something like that, maybe more once in a while. Without him but improved depth we'll be less consistent but the year that deep team clicks, watch out. In short, higher risk, higher reward
 

MattM92

Registered User
Dec 8, 2010
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FL
I'm with you. I think there's still a big gap between Bishop and Vasy.

I don't think the gap is all that big. Bishop is undeniably better right now, but it's not as if Vasi is a fringe NHLer.
 

tjs*

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Mar 18, 2016
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As I've said, if it eventually costs us Palat, then I think that's a pill we have to swallow.

So basically what you're saying is that you're too lazy to actually think the situation through before forming your opinion. Good to know.

By the way if you'd actually taken the time to see what our potential roster looks like with and without Bishop you'd have seen that we're probably losing Killorn as well. So I guess you're fine with Kucherov, Drouin, and Johnson having to do all our scoring.
 

PaulGG

Registered User
May 15, 2011
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I don't think the gap is all that big. Bishop is undeniably better right now, but it's not as if Vasi is a fringe NHLer.

As we have seen in these playoff teams can win without a top goalie. Bishop who I really like is going to go. We need to get stronger out front if we are to win the cup. Bish is too expensive and we would be wise to deal him before he goes UFA.
 

2020 Cup Champions

Formerly Sila v Kucherove
Nov 26, 2013
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Bishop has had pretty significant injuries in or before each of our playoff series since joining the team, no? Is this not concerning?
 

Iceman

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Jun 9, 2014
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Bishop has had pretty significant injuries in or before each of our playoff series since joining the team, no? Is this not concerning?

Not sure how concerned I am for his long term health but more about the fact that we keep having an injuried starting goalie in every playoffs when everything is on the line.
 

tjs*

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Mar 18, 2016
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As we have seen in these playoff teams can win without a top goalie. Bishop who I really like is going to go. We need to get stronger out front if we are to win the cup. Bish is too expensive and we would be wise to deal him before he goes UFA.

Agree that Bish has to go, but I'm not sure about the timing. One option is to move guys like him and Garrison now to maximize the return (or in Bishop's case to get a return) and get a head start on the youth movement. Another option (which we might be forced into if Bishop doesn't want to waive) is to keep everybody for one more Cup run with the bulk of the current roster and then let Bishop walk and move Garrison in 2017.

On the one hand the team we have now hasn't quite been able to get it done the last couple of years, which argues for optimizing our rebuild at the expense of our Cup chances next season. On the other hand we've come very close, and with better luck on the injury front combined with improved play by our younger players and a bit of a shakeup with our lower lines maybe we could get over the top. You could make a good argument for either approach.
 

Todd1a

Kucherov or prospect
Jun 19, 2014
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Then we should start a who do we now trade thread if that's the case.

Yep got to buyout carle first. Try and move or
Bury condra in the minors. Trade flipper back to Detroit and trade garrison for some kids restock the system a bit. Pretty much stuck with Callahan can't really do anything with him.
 

tjs*

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Mar 18, 2016
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Bishop has had pretty significant injuries in or before each of our playoff series since joining the team, no? Is this not concerning?

Three years in a row and in two of those years it killed our chances in the playoffs. I'd say that's very concerning.
 

Sky04

Registered User
Jan 8, 2009
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Three years in a row and in two of those years it killed our chances in the playoffs. I'd say that's very concerning.

Team can't win a single series without a healthy Ben Bishop, equally concerning.
 

tjs*

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Mar 18, 2016
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Team can't win a single series without a healthy Ben Bishop, equally concerning.

Yep. We're basically the Canadiens, except we aren't complete crap without our goalie - we just aren't quite good enough.
 
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