Norris finalists on non-playoff teams

[Hockey Outsider]

Does anybody have a list of Norris finalists who were not on playoff teams? I can compile this myself but was hoping someone else has this information available.

Three notes:
- We can define "finalist" as anyone finishing in the top three in voting (though if anyone has an expanded list, perhaps looking at players in the top five in voting, I'd be interested in seeing that too).
- I'm interested in the entire history of the trophy, 1954-present, though of course I'd be glad to see even a partial list.
- Not sure how to account for situations when a defenseman was traded mid-year (and spent at least part of the year on both a playoff and non-playoff team). Would likely deal with these on a case-by-case basis.

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[Sens Rule]

Made me curious if Harvey or Howell had been out of the playoffs when the won with the Rangers... both times the Rangers made it in 4th place. I am pretty sure none of the winners every was out of the playoffs.

Thinking about it... Coffey was on the 89/90 Penguins who didn't make the playoffs... barely in that tough Patrick division. He got 103 points. Not sure where he was in the Norris race. He was a 2nd team all-star.

 

[Sticks and Pucks]

I found this thread:

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=145895&page=5

 

[reckoning]

I think Tim Horton in 67-68 was the last one. Bobby Orr did it the season before.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

Six months later and we only have three affirmative responses:

- Bobby Orr in 1967 (3rd in Norris voting; Boston was last in NHL)
- Tim Horton in 1968 (3rd in Norris voting; Toronto missed playoffs by 4 points).
- Shea Weber in 2014 (3rd in Norris voting: Nashville missed playoffs by 3 points).

I looked into Sens Rule's suggestion about Coffey in 1990, but he was only 4th in Norris voting.

This must be an incredibly rare feat (or an incredibly uninteresting topic!)

 

[mrhockey193195]

Leetch was 5th in voting in 2000-01, and led all defensemen in points, so there's another "close call"

 

[pbandjam]

I'm bored so I looked at top 3 in voting since the award was introduced:

53-54: Bill Gadsby - 3rd in voting - CHI finished 6th
58-59: Bill Gadsby - 2nd in voting -NYR finished 5th
58-59: Marcel Pronovost - 3rd in voting - DET finished 6th
66-67: Bobby Orr - 3rd in voting - BOS finished 6th
67-68: Tim Horton - 3rd in voting - TOR finished 5th in East
13-14: Shea Weber - 3rd in voting - NSH finished 6th in Central

*75-76: Brad Park - 2nd in voting - Played 13 games for NYR who missed, traded to BOS who made playoffs


-All info taken from hockey-reference.com
-53-54 3rd place voting found at http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=145895&page=5

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I'm bored so I looked at top 3 in voting since the award was introduced:

53-54: Bill Gadsby - 3rd in voting - CHI finished 6th
58-59: Bill Gadsby - 2nd in voting -NYR finished 5th
58-59: Marcel Pronovost - 3rd in voting - DET finished 6th
66-67: Bobby Orr - 3rd in voting - BOS finished 6th
67-68: Tim Horton - 3rd in voting - TOR finished 5th in East
13-14: Shea Weber - 3rd in voting - NSH finished 6th in Central

*75-76: Brad Park - 2nd in voting - Played 13 games for NYR who missed, traded to BOS who made playoffs


-All info taken from hockey-reference.com
-53-54 3rd place voting found at http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=145895&page=5

Cool thanks. Not surprised it happened more in the Original 6, when writers watched every team 14 times, so they would be much more familiar with everyone.

So for everyone complaining about how Weber got robbed - we can point to the fact that he's the first Norris finalist on a team that didn't make the playoffs since 1968.

Great first post.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

Update for 2015. Drew Doughty was the Norris trophy runner-up. Los Angeles missed the playoffs by two points (but the Calgary Flames held the tiebreaker, so they were really three points out of the postseason).

Again, no defenseman has ever won the Norris trophy while playing on a team that missed the playoffs.

I'm sure it isn't much consolation, but Drew Doughty is only the second defenseman to finish runner-up on a non playoff team. The only other time it happened was 56 years ago, when Bill Gadsby was runner-up to Tom Johnson. (Doughty was much closer to Karlsson than Gadsby was to Johnson, so one can argue that 2015 was the closest a defenseman on a non-playoff team has ever come to winning the Norris trophy.

There have only been seven instances of a player finishing in the top three in Norris voting on a non playoff team (Gadsby in 1954 and 1959; Pronovost in 1959; Orr in 1967; Horton in 1968; Weber in 2014; Doughty in 2015). This excludes Park per post #7.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

Doughty had more first place votes than Karlsson, but was inexplicably left off a substantial number of ballots entirely and lost because of it.

Just speculation on my part, but I'd suspect Eastern voters needing their beauty sleep and not actually watching him play more than two games all year was the most likely culprit.

 

[Ishdul]

Doughty had more first place votes than Karlsson, but was inexplicably left off a substantial number of ballots entirely and lost because of it.

Just speculation on my part, but I'd suspect Eastern voters needing their beauty sleep and not actually watching him play more than two games all year was the most likely culprit.

He missed the playoffs and didn't score a lot of points, two things they really, really care about when voting.

I also don't think there's any problem with exposure for Doughty. He plays in a major media market and they were the defending Cup champions with him playing a very prominent role. A lot of people had the "Why hasn't Doughty won the Norris" talk before the year began.

 

[Epsilon]

He missed the playoffs and didn't score a lot of points, two things they really, really care about when voting.

I also don't think there's any problem with exposure for Doughty. He plays in a major media market and they were the defending Cup champions with him playing a very prominent role. A lot of people had the "Why hasn't Doughty won the Norris" talk before the year began.

Yeah if anything, I think Doughty probably benefited this year from voters not watching him but voting him highly anyway based on factors that are irrelevant to the 2014-15 regular season, like previous playoffs, the olympics, or some general belief that he's the best defenseman in the NHL (which, even if true, is not what the Norris trophy for a specific season is about) which would also be based on those irrelevant factors.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

He missed the playoffs and didn't score a lot of points, two things they really, really care about when voting.

I also don't think there's any problem with exposure for Doughty. He plays in a major media market and they were the defending Cup champions with him playing a very prominent role. A lot of people had the "Why hasn't Doughty won the Norris" talk before the year began.

The voters no doubt love point totals. But I believe this ties right into the general acknowledgement that many Eastern voters are simply in bed by the time most games on the west coast take place. Point totals are the easy/lazy way to rank players, and most Western Conference players have lower point totals due to the generally better defensive play in the conference as a whole.

This year's awards voting just hammers the point home. The East won every major award and swept the 1st all star team. That's pretty ridiculous considering the West was pretty clearly the better conference, again.

I believe the NHL is at a point where they should have conference-specific awards. Similar to the NL and AL in baseball.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Doughty was closer to the Norris than any dman on a non-playoff team ever, and people are still crying Eastern bias? Seriously?

If anything, he benefited from the feeling that he was robbed of the Conn Smythe last year and got a bunch of make up votes.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

Doughty was closer to the Norris than any dman on a non-playoff team ever, and people are still crying Eastern bias? Seriously?

If anything, he benefited from the feeling that he was robbed of the Conn Smythe last year and got a bunch of make up votes.

If it was a stand alone occurrence, I don't think it would be Eastern bias. But the trend has been quite clear. I don't actually have an issue with Doughty losing the Norris to Karlsson. Both carried their teams, one of them got his team to the playoffs the other didn't. My issue is that a significant chunk of voters omitted Doughty entirely. I don't know who they were of course, but one of them thought Nik Kronwall should have won the Norris, and another (or possibly the same one) had Nick Leddy as runner up, with votes going to the likes of Brian Campbell and Justin Faulk.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I mean, I agree that lower profile teams tend to get overlooked, and that lower profile teams tend to be in the West (Subban's Norris win over Suter was awful). But teams like LA and Chicago are definitely not low profile teams. It's incredibly rare for players from non-playoff teams to get recognition for awards like the Norris and Selke, and LA had a finalist for each (I realize that the Selke winner was also for a non-playoff team; maybe times are changing, but you can't expect every writer to get on board).

 

[Kyle McMahon]

I mean, I agree that lower profile teams tend to get overlooked, and that lower profile teams tend to be in the West (Subban's Norris win over Suter was awful). But teams like LA and Chicago are definitely not low profile teams. It's incredibly rare for players from non-playoff teams to get recognition for awards like the Norris and Selke, and LA had a finalist for each (I realize that the Selke winner was also for a non-playoff team; maybe times are changing, but you can't expect every writer to get on board).

I think LA being a high profile team will lead to reputation votes over time, but those are still rather uninformed votes. It wouldn't surprise me in the least if a bunch of voters looked at Doughty's point total, figured he wasn't that great, but just threw him on as 4th or 5th anyway due to reputation. Better than ignoring him completely (in this instance), but potentially incorrect on future instances.

 

[Voight]

Doughty had more first place votes than Karlsson, but was inexplicably left off a substantial number of ballots entirely and lost because of it.

No kidding. Complete BS he loses even with more 1st place votes.

 

[Ishdul]

The voters no doubt love point totals. But I believe this ties right into the general acknowledgement that many Eastern voters are simply in bed by the time most games on the west coast take place. Point totals are the easy/lazy way to rank players, and most Western Conference players have lower point totals due to the generally better defensive play in the conference as a whole.

They rank Eastern players by point totals as well. I'd be more inclined to say they don't watch any games than they only watch Western games.

This year's awards voting just hammers the point home. The East won every major award and swept the 1st all star team. That's pretty ridiculous considering the West was pretty clearly the better conference, again.

Aside from Doughty, who do you think should have won their award/made 1st team? The only other guy who came close was Tarasenko in the RW voting, and I don't really buy the argument for him over Voracek. And anyways, I don't think Tarasenko being on there should mean much of a difference for anyone. If Kane plays a full healthy season and he's the #1 RW in a walk, and if he kept the pace that he was going at then likely he's a Hart/Lindsay nominee. But he didn't, so we're having this argument.

I believe the NHL is at a point where they should have conference-specific awards. Similar to the NL and AL in baseball.

I hate that in baseball, winning an MVP feels less than half as meaningful as it does in other sports, let alone the gold glove/silver slugger stuff which currently comprises 36 different awards per year and somehow I think it would be 10x worse in hockey.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

They rank Eastern players by point totals as well. I'd be more inclined to say they don't watch any games than they only watch Western games.

I think for the most part they only watch the team they cover in the paper or whatever. So they'll at least see other Eastern players playing against their team, even if they usually just resort to point totals anyway. I wouldn't say Western voters are any different, but for the fact that they always have a couple hours to kill before their own game starts and can spend it watching Eastern games that are already underway.

Aside from Doughty, who do you think should have won their award/made 1st team? The only other guy who came close was Tarasenko in the RW voting, and I don't really buy the argument for him over Voracek. And anyways, I don't think Tarasenko being on there should mean much of a difference for anyone. If Kane plays a full healthy season and he's the #1 RW in a walk, and if he kept the pace that he was going at then likely he's a Hart/Lindsay nominee. But he didn't, so we're having this argument.

Subban over Doughty or Weber for 1st team all star is weak. I'd have gone with Doughty for Norris and Tarasenko over Voracek in the two close calls. Based on voters love of stats, Toews and his +30 losing the Selke to Bergeron and his +2 is somewhat odd, though I personally think that could have gone either way.

I hate that in baseball, winning an MVP feels less than half as meaningful as it does in other sports, let alone the gold glove/silver slugger stuff which currently comprises 36 different awards per year and somehow I think it would be 10x worse in hockey.

I don't think I'd give out two of each award, but writers could only vote for guys in their own conference. Each conference gets two nominees based on that vote, and a select panel of actual experts can then choose the winner.

 

[Epsilon]

Subban over Doughty or Weber for 1st team all star is weak. I'd have gone with Doughty for Norris and Tarasenko over Voracek in the two close calls. Based on voters love of stats, Toews and his +30 losing the Selke to Bergeron and his +2 is somewhat odd, though I personally think that could have gone either way.

Weber finished too high in the Norris trophy and All-Star team voting as it is, a huge reputation vote there. Most Nashville Predators fans on here seemed to feel that Roman Josi was the better of the two this season.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

Weber finished too high in the Norris trophy and All-Star team voting as it is, a huge reputation vote there. Most Nashville Predators fans on here seemed to feel that Roman Josi was the better of the two this season.

I can buy that Josi was better for sure. I thought him, Weber, and Jones were all fantastic. Subban is certainly better now than when he won his joke of a Norris, but 1st team all star still reeks of statistical navel-gazing to me.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I think Subban deserved the 1st Team this year, unlike the year he won the Norris

 

[Kyle McMahon]

I think Subban deserved the 1st Team this year, unlike the year he won the Norris

It's at least debatable this year. I'm of the belief though that if you're not a shutdown defenseman in your own end you better be Paul Coffey at the other end to be a 1st teamer. The voters seldom agree with that, however.

 

[Ishdul]

Subban is really good defensively.