Nordic Elite League?

[Albatros]

Sure, but you don't get much money out of that, only cheaper players. The income to run the operations still has to come from something else.

 

[Vandalay Industries]

No one seems to ask the basic question: What's in it for Sweden???

I don't see how any clubs in Sweden would gain anything from any possible Nordic League scenario.

They have one of the few well functioning promotion/relegation systems in Europe (yes, there are a few others as well). Why would they spoil this by inviting other nations clubs into the SHL? They can't even do that. SHL has a very smart construction where the clubs own the SHL by parking money when promoted and loses their ownership (and gets the money back) when relegated. Why would Leksand, Karlskrona, Timrå, Malmö, Rögle, Västerås and which other teams you would consider bubble teams throw away these possibilities for foreign teams?

And which Swedish teams would have any interest in participating in a Nordic Satellite League with much less PR value than SHL? It would be even more costly than participating in SHL, but with much less attendance, relevant TV coverage and revenue.

If we go lower in the ranks to find a Swedish team that might have interest, they won't be able to afford it. They play a local system in Division 1 to cut travel expenses. If they could afford participating in a Nordic League, they would have a budget allowing them to aim for SHL, so again: Why choose this rather unappealing Nordic League?

The only satellite possibility I could imagine would be perhaps clubs nearby Denmark like Limhamn, Pantern, Helsingborg or Kristianstad possibly joining the Danish league. I don't think they would actually want to, but just leaving a door slightly open because it could make marginal sense on the expense account, although the trips to Jutland probably would be enough for them to say no. And also the Danish clubs probably also wouldn't have any interest in this.

I don't know if any Swedish or Finnish clubs might say yes to a Norwegian invitation, but my guess is: No. Also the Norwegian clubs probably wouldn't be interested in giving the invitation anyway, unless - for whatever imaginary reason - an attractive club would be ready. Perhaps the chance is slightly higher than in Denmark, but I don't see it happening.

 

[Toro2017]

They have one of the few well functioning promotion/relegation systems in Europe (yes, there are a few others as well). Why would they spoil this by inviting other nations clubs into the SHL?

Why would they need to "spoil it", if they invite foreign teams?

Lets say they would change the name of the competition "Skandinavian Hockey League". Lets say there would be all 14 SHL teams in, plus promotion/relegation combo with Allsvenskan. Then there would be seven teams from Finland and seven teams from Norway/Denmark or better jet seven teams from northern Germany. 14 swedish teams would set up one conference for the new league, and foreign teams would set up the other, but they would divide to two division also, because they are not so close to each other. Regular season would be played with somekind of format and then playoffs are first played inside conferences. This way the current SHL could keep all the same things in the new SHL with some extragames abroad.

 

[Toro2017]

Or let say that there would only be 14 teams from Sweden and 7 teams from Finland.

Swedish teams would play two times against every finnish teams and three times against every other swedish teams. So (2x7 + 3x13) -> 53 games for every swedish teams in regular season and 8 teams would go to playoffs that will be all decided on best on seven format.

Finnish teams would play two times against every swedish teams and five times against every other finnish teams. So (2x14 + 5x6) -> 58 games for every finnish teams in regular season and only 4 teams would go to playoffs. So basicly finnish teams would start playoff "one round" after swedish.

This way swedish could keep promotion/relegation with Allsvenskan and on the otherside of baltic sea those seven finnish teams could be fixed.

So this way the difference with previous season for any swedish teams would be one extra game in regular season. Only 8 teams would get to playoffs, now it is 10. And the swedish champion would play four best of seven series, because the last one would be against the winner of finnish division. For any swedish team there would be seven games in Finland and seven games against finnish teams in home stadium. Would this be impossible to think of from swedish point of view?

Edit. And if we want to take norwegian and danish in this, then they could merge with Hockey Allsvenskan (that would change it name to Hockey Allskandinavian). There would only be 12 swedish teams that would be divided in two division and then there would be one division with six norwegian teams and one with six danish teams. Swedish divisions would form one conference and norwegian and danish divisions another conference.

Swedish teams would play one time against all danish and norwegian teams. Three times against every swedish teams in other division and four times against every team in home division. So for every swedish HA teams there would be 50 games (1x12 + 3x6 +4x5).

Danish and norwegian teams would play once against every swedish teams and also once against every teams in same conference but different division. And six times against every home division teams. So for every danish and norwegian HA teams there would be 48 games (1x12 + 1x6 + 6x5).

From every division four best teams would get to playoffs with best of five format. After two playoff rounds divisional winners will meet in conference finals (also best of five) and both winners would end up playing against two SHL teams for two spot for next season in SHL. This way every year one danish or norwegian team would get the chance to play for place in SHL, but if they are not good enough, they would not get in. Also every year best swedish HA team would have the chance to play for place in SHL. Would this change things too much from swedish point of view?

 

[TheWhiskeyThief]

If you could gimmick a 34 team round robin SWE/NOR/DEN league with Allsvenskan standing providing the basis for promotion relegation to SHL.

Each country could do their own trap door setup for access to the league. Having the single RR would make every game that much more important.

You’d have to get the TV side figured out, but the prospect of local clubs playing in the SHL might drive rights fees upward in Norway/ Denmark.

 

[Vandalay Industries]

You still aren't asking yourself the basic question: What's in it for Sweden? What do the SHL teams and the "bubble teams" gain from this? Why would it be more interesting for them to play seven Danish/Norwegian teams? Here's a clue: It isn't!

There's no interest in a Nordic League from any Danish club whatsoever either. I don't know if the 2-3 big clubs in Norway would like it. I have no clue about the Finns - might be a different attitude, which Jokerit might be an example of.

But you can easily count Sweden and Denmark out.

As for your Allsvenskan idea - what's in it for Sweden? And how are the Danish clubs going to afford so many trips to Sweden, Norway and Finland? Some clubs in Allsvenskan can be very, very far away and Norway and Finland are even further away. There are still lots of players in the Danish league attending school and jobs, so there is no way, they will applaud an away game in Skellefteå, Örnsköllsvik and perhaps even Luleå at some point.

You don't seem to grasp, that the hockey culture in Sweden is just lightyears from Denmark. It's two entirely different hockey countries. The Danish league is a 100% development league. SHL is top of the pops in Europe. On par with KHL.

 

[Vandalay Industries]

Regarding TV there are probably very few club games in the Danish league that has more than 20.000 viewers. Many games are below 10.000. SHL have millions of viewers and are sent in over 20 countries. (Det internationella intresset för SHL växer för varje år)

Explain to me again, why the Swedish clubs would risk wasting this wellworking concept for some clubs from other countries? Smaller clubs, which probably has no appeal to this mainly Swedish audience?

On a different note: 14 seems to be a good number in Europe for the ultimate number of clubs. KHL has taken it further in their quest to challenge NHL, but in the other big countries 14 (give or take one or two) seems to work well.

 

[TheWhiskeyThief]

It’s called growing the pie. The game doesn’t grow in Denmark or Norway because there’s not much point in being the country’s tallest midget. But if Hvidore(or a Copenhagen club with ambition) had a path to grow the game and have derbies across the sound that meant something, they would be all over it.

Allsvenskan is already getting left behind by the SHL, they need to grow their pie with more game days. It’s not like the bottom of the table teams outdraw a side like Storhamar.

SHL wouldn’t care because if a promoted team has the wherewithal to buy in, then there isn’t a problem because the TV share can pay for the player budget and them some.

Doing a 36 team round robin league between Allsvenskan, Norway & Denmark(Finland would be excluded), if routed properly, is easily manageable. Longest trip is to Umeå and if Trondheim ever gets promoted, you just do the drive through Åre to there or Lillehammer. One 5 day bus trip per team is the toughest travel.

 

[Vandalay Industries]

It’s called growing the pie. The game doesn’t grow in Denmark or Norway because there’s not much point in being the country’s tallest midget.

Tell that to Storhamar, Stavanger, Herning and SønderjyskE. They all seem to enjoy it a lot, to be honest.

One 5 day bus trip per team is the toughest travel.

This says it all. You really don't understand. The Danish clubs have numerous players attending school or working a day job. They can't get 5 days off, because a couple of guys in an internet forum thinks a Nordic League is a good idea.

Plus the Danish clubs won't even get close to being able to afford these fantasy plans of yours. The travel expenses are already holding the clubs down just traveling around in Denmark. If they need to triple the travel expenses to be in this Fantasy League they will all die economically before christmas.

Allsvenskan is already getting left behind by the SHL

So how come every season we see Allsvenskan teams not only competing well in the qulification, but actually every year winning these promotion/relegation matches? You make no sense. The Allsvenskan clubs are by no means left behind. Not even close!!

 

[TheWhiskeyThief]

Leksands’ budget was bigger than Mora’s before they went up; now that they are up, the difference will treble due to the change in TV money. Going forward, the only club at risk of the drop will be Oskarshamn, but only a handful of teams will be able to get close to their budget because of the increase of the TV deal.

Danish teams that cant handle one trip out of a season can drop down a division and plan to try and go up when they want to play with the trying-to-grow ups.

Most trips even in Denmark are close to a day’s charter time to begin with.

 

[Toro2017]

Sorry. You did not quote me, so I did not notice your message, until now.

First of all. I dont know, if this model is viable or attractive, but you asked why would SHL want to "spoil" what they already have. So I created a model, where SHL would be pretty much the same as now plus little Scandivanian extra and asked why would they need to spoil anything?

You still aren't asking yourself the basic question: What's in it for Sweden?

For swedish hockey there would be the classic "growing the game". They would get a bigger market area and one of those country would be Finland, where ice hockey is by far the most popular sport in the country. So basicly in that model swedes would run the hockey show in whole Scandinavia.

What do the SHL teams and the "bubble teams" gain from this?

SHL would grow geographically and as a competition. Market area would grow. 5 million finns (new customers) to sell this hockey product, that loves their hockey almost as much as canadiens.

Why would it be more interesting for them to play seven Danish/Norwegian teams? Here's a clue: It isn't!

Well that part is harder, but even there I would say that Allsvenskan is loosing ground for SHL, so why not look for possible 5 million new danish customers and possible 5 million new norwegian customers. It will be hard work, but if they manage to make hockey more popular in Norway and Denmark, then that new "allsvenskan" would basicly be the top ice hockey league in those countries.

You also say, that danish teams would not have the money to play around Sweden or Norway. In CHL every year one danish and one norwegian team travels around Europe for atleast three games (group stage). With my model there would only be nine games abroad for every danish teams (per season). Yes it is three times more than CHL, but it would be to neighboring countries (Sweden and Norway), not like France or Czech republic.

 

[Name Nameless]

I think the difference between Sweden and Finland on the one side, and Denmark and Norway on the other, is just to big in quality to make this work. Also, hockey is massive in Sweden and Finland, and a fringe sport in Denmark and Norway. Neither Sweden or FInland would need this when it comes to interest.

What could possibly work is just Denmark and Norway. Except the logistics, as it would create a massive increase in travel-costs. But with the rivalry between Denmark and Norway in hockey, I think it could possibly have the desired effect of bringing a league like that into the limelight.

 

[Exarz]

Can't really see it happen with the massive advantage SHL clubs have when it comes to TV money. There is no reason whatsoever that Swedish clubs would want to split even more money, and I don't see any reason that C More would be willing to pay even more for a Nordic league (as they would because I really don't believe that you would only purchase the broadcasting rights for a "Swedish conference" and not the league as a whole).

 

[Toro2017]

Well as I said before, I dont know if this is viable, but it would be a model, where swedish teams would not need to give up anything from their current system. They would each get only 7 extra games in finland and another 7 games against finnish teams in their home rinks. They would still play most of their games against swedish teams and play for the championship title in Sweden. They would also still have promotion/relegation system with a second tier competition.

I think the difference between Sweden and Finland on the one side, and Denmark and Norway on the other, is just to big in quality to make this work.

Do you mean that the difference is too big between Sweden and Finland?

Because in my model there would be swedish side of the league, that would be compiled out of 14 swedish teams and on the other side 7 finnish teams. On both side they would first play until winner is found (finnish and swedish champion) and then those two winners would face each other in final series.

There would be limited amount of games between finnish and swedish teams, so even if there would be some kind of cap between them, it would not affect that much on local playoffs.

Also, hockey is massive in Sweden and Finland, and a fringe sport in Denmark and Norway.

Well thats why Finns and Swedes would come together in Scandinavian Hockey League, while Denmark and Norway would start to improve their hockey programs in "Allskandinavian" second tier hockey competition. And in there teams would also be divided into conferences and divisions, so teams would not have to travel that much.

But maybe this would be to much, because two hockey cultures would collide here. I mean swedish would still have "open league" in this model, where as finns would have fixed teams. This could be to much to put together.

By the way, did Telia bought Bonnier last year? I mean is the situation now that the same owner basicly has the tv right for both finnish Liiga and swedish SHL?

 

[Toro2017]

as they would because I really don't believe that you would only purchase the broadcasting rights for a "Swedish conference" and not the league as a whole.

I dont see any reason, why there should be only one tv-rights holder for whole scandinavian area. Some tv-company can buy the rights for Sweden and then another for Finland, if the competition would get more money that way. Viasat (for one) has the rights for KHL in scandinavia, but not all the way to China. I dont see any reason, why it cant be like that in this proposed nordic league.

 

[Vinther]

What could possibly work is just Denmark and Norway. Except the logistics, as it would create a massive increase in travel-costs. But with the rivalry between Denmark and Norway in hockey, I think it could possibly have the desired effect of bringing a league like that into the limelight.

The travel cost ( and logistic for the players with work and school) are what stopped me from thinking more about this idea.
Even if I did like the idea of a league with 8 teams from the 2 countries. 1 game home and away against the teams from the other country, with 4 trips with back to back games. And then either 4 or 5 games against the teams from your own country for either 44 or 51 total games. Then a national play-off for the National championship before the Denmark-Norway rivalry to end the season.

But most likely the travel cost (Both in terms of money, but also in time spend for the players and staff.), would make this a bad idea. I don't find it that likely that you could find a sponsor that would gamble that this league would be a success in both countries

 

[MeHateHe]

No one seems to ask the basic question: What's in it for Sweden???

I don't see how any clubs in Sweden would gain anything from any possible Nordic League scenario.

I think the disparity between Sweden/Finland and Norway/Denmark would, as others have pointed out, make a regional league not feasible at this point in time. But some kind of end-of-season tournament (similar to the way the Memorial Cup is run, for example) outside of the current Champions league format, could be beneficial to Denmark and Norway in the near term, and could probably benefit Sweden and Finland in the long term.

It comes down to a challenge/chase scenario. If the Danish and Norwegian champions have annual competitions with stronger sides from neighbouring countries, there is an incentive for them to do more to develop and/or recruit better players. That incentive also extends to enhancing their financial picture to assist in that development and recruitment.

On the Sweden/Finland side of the equation, you have to think that having more regional rivals would spur them to up their respective games over the long term. One of the reasons Canada put resources into skills development was because we were getting pushed by our neighbours to the south. We don't like losing to the Finns or the Swedes, but we loathe losing to the damn Yanks.

Anyway, it's a novel concept and anything that improves the game's development in sports-mad countries where hockey should be thriving, well, that's all right with me.

 

[EvilDead]

As an American who has a layman's understanding of the current situation, while it certainly would not work for a Nordic Superleague for hockey, I do wonder whether it would be plausible to experiment with a Swedish Finnish cup that takes the top teams in Liiga and SHL and pits them in a friendly off season tournament kind of like what one person suggested as sort of a copy of the Memorial Cup that in time could incorporate Norway and Denmark.

 

[lindelof]

As an American who has a layman's understanding of the current situation, while it certainly would not work for a Nordic Superleague for hockey, I do wonder whether it would be plausible to experiment with a Swedish Finnish cup that takes the top teams in Liiga and SHL and pits them in a friendly off season tournament kind of like what one person suggested as sort of a copy of the Memorial Cup that in time could incorporate Norway and Denmark.

Well that is basically what CHL has evolved from.

 

[TheWhiskeyThief]

Reenavipul

Well that is basically what CHL has evolved from.

But the CHL is a rubbish format unfortunately.

If the season is going to be structured as is, just dump each group into one location in their group and make it like an IIHF championship week for August holiday makers.

Cuts back on logistics costs for clubs, makes travel for fans simpler, clears out the calendar until the knockout stages, generates profits for host clubs & cities.

But if you’re looking to make a NEL, do the concept of Danish & Norge clubs playing a round robin in the Allsvenskan feeding into the SHL, do the same thing with the Baltics (maybe Belarus?)doing a round robin w/ Mestis, feeding into the Liiga.

Ultimately, you’d go to a 28 team round robin including the SHL & Liiga, gets you 54 games + playoffs/promotion/relegation contests.

Maybe Poland & Slovakia loops w/ Czech 2nd division, Hungary promotes into Slovakia, Romania promotes into Hungary and ultimately promotes into Xtraliga

 

[Muuri]

Only seven teams from Finland? Pass.

 

[TheWhiskeyThief]

Only seven teams from Finland? Pass.

14 SHL-7 Liiga teams doesn’t work for game nights period unless you go to double round robin and I’m pretty sure that won’t work on multiple levels.

 

[OskarOskarius]

Only seven teams from Finland? Pass.

If we do some counting from the old table I posted (on social media followers) and compare the sum of top 10 for Sweden and top 10 for Finland we get.

Sweden: 1 419 000 followers
Finland: 1 304 000 followers

So based on this, the media rights for Finland and Sweden should be the same if we count Jokerit. So you could probably have a Swedish/Finnish league of say 16 teams with 8 Swedish teams and 8 Finnish teams.

A Swedish conference could be:

Frölunda (Gothenburg)
Djurgården (Stockholm)
Färjestad (Karlstad)
Brynäs (Gävle)
HV71 (Jönköping)
Leksand (Leksand)
Luleå (Luleå)
Skellefteå AIK (Skellefteå)

A Finnish conference could be:

Jokerit (Helsinki)
HIFK (Helsinki)
Kärpät (Oulu)
Tappara (Tampere)
TPS (Turku)
Ilves (Tampere)
KalPa (Kuopio)
Ässät (Pori)

Play off between the top four of each Conference. The Winner of each Conference is national champion and play a final against the champion of the other Conference. The Winner of that final is Nordic champion.

The bottom four of each Conference play some form of relegation battle, so you will have a open League with 1 team being relegated each season from each Conference, and 1 team promoted from the lower division, each season.

 

[HanTykje]

Maybe Norwegian teams should be allowed into the Swedish league and maybe the best from the 1 div from each country should face eachother in a playoff to get into that league.

 

[Eye of Ra]

Maybe Norwegian teams should be allowed into the Swedish league and maybe the best from the 1 div from each country should face eachother in a playoff to get into that league.

well look at khl, they have 30 teams.

i think shl with 18 teams would be nice, 14 swedish teams 2 norweigan 2 danmark