Nordic Elite League?

[Daximus]

I have recently been reading up on many of the leagues in Northern Europe, in particular Liiga, SHL, Get-Ligaen, Metal Ligaen and the Icelandic hockey League. And it got me thinking about why the Nordic Countries of Northern Europe haven't tried forming a Nordic Elite League yet. Many of these leagues already have and do attract some premier players. I think if someone were to come along and form a larger encompassing league in this area of the world, it could really heighten the level of play in Northern Europe. Coupled with a lower level relegation or development league, hockey could be stronger in Northern Europe than it ever was. They could possibly even rival the KHL in terms of attracting free agents in Europe.
Why hasn't this happened yet and what are the road blocks preventing it from happening?

Click to read more...

 

[Bank]

It comes up from time to time...

This is the latest discussion: http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1498101

I personally don't think Denmark would participate or benefit from it. If the thread doesn't leaves you wondering - do ask away

 

[Daximus]

If you look at attendance rates for Finnish and Swedish leagues, you can see that hockey is popular in Northern Europe. I think the countries with smaller leagues like Norway, Denmark and Estonia even could benefit from joining a larger umbrella league and focusing on supporting only a few larger teams.
Is it that Europeans in general do not like the North American model of sports? Is it the money involved in starting it up? Is it a nationalistic thing, where people would refuse to watch teams from other countries play?

You could very easily have 4 teams from Finland and 4 in Sweden, 3 from Norway and 2 from Denmark and 1 from Estonia making for a strong 14 team league. With venues that hold strong attendance and attract players from all over the World. You could have a further 14 development teams in smaller markets as well to round out the league. It actually surprises me than no one has tapped into this potentially huge market. Or is it that people would just prefer to watch their own countries league and that's why it hasn't happened yet?

 

[Jevo]

There is simply not enough money in Danish, Norwegian or Estonian hockey, for teams to compete with Swedish or Finnish teams. Norway could potentially, if they get Statoil to sugar daddy a team. The best Danish and Norwegian teams, could probably be somewhere near the top of Allsvenskan, but would be in serious trouble, if they were ever to compete in SHL. Then there's the problem with getting good enough players. If Denmark, Norway and Estonia are going to improve as hockey nations, they would need to have their players playing in this league. Estonia doesn't have any good hockey players, so their team would probably be almost entirely foreigners. Denmark and Norway could compete, but only if they get a sort of national team sans NHL players. That would be unlikely, and the teams depth would be questionable compared to the Swedish and Finnish teams.

You base your thesis that hockey is popular in Northern Europe, and attendance figures from Sweden and Finland. We already know it is popular in those countries, but maybe you should look at attendance figures in Denmark and Norway. If you get more 1500 people to a regular season game in Denmark, it's been a very good day. We won't suddenly get 10000 just because the teams will be playing Modo. No one outside of hardcore hockey fans will even know who Modo is, and thus the general public wouldn't even care. Atleast now even the stupidest person in Rødovre knows that Herlev are a bunch of jerks, and they need to get their ***** kicked. This huge market you are talking about, just isn't there.

 

[Bank]

You base your thesis that hockey is popular in Northern Europe, and attendance figures from Sweden and Finland. We already know it is popular in those countries, but maybe you should look at attendance figures in Denmark and Norway. If you get more 1500 people to a regular season game in Denmark, it's been a very good day. We won't suddenly get 10000 just because the teams will be playing Modo. No one outside of hardcore hockey fans will even know who Modo is, and thus the general public wouldn't even care. Atleast now even the stupidest person in Rødovre knows that Herlev are a bunch of jerks, and they need to get their ***** kicked. This huge market you are talking about, just isn't there.

This is so well put. It's not a national thing. Look at how hard it is to garner interest for games against the new teams in the Danish League like Gentofte. It's a local thing.

I get that from the outside in looks like the most obvious thing to do. Better product = more interest. But it doesn't work that way. Roughly put: No one in their right mind would watch Danish because they think it's good hockey. It's all about the emotion you attach to the clubs. Therefor games vs. better but unknown teams would be hard to sell.

Then you'd have to consider the state you'd leave the Danish League at if you take out the best players to gather a team for this league. It's still suppose to be the cradle for Danish talent

That said it's a fun experiment

 

[Paaske]

There is simply not enough money in Danish, Norwegian or Estonian hockey, for teams to compete with Swedish or Finnish teams. Norway could potentially, if they get Statoil to sugar daddy a team. The best Danish and Norwegian teams, could probably be somewhere near the top of Allsvenskan, but would be in serious trouble, if they were ever to compete in SHL. Then there's the problem with getting good enough players. If Denmark, Norway and Estonia are going to improve as hockey nations, they would need to have their players playing in this league. Estonia doesn't have any good hockey players, so their team would probably be almost entirely foreigners. Denmark and Norway could compete, but only if they get a sort of national team sans NHL players. That would be unlikely, and the teams depth would be questionable compared to the Swedish and Finnish teams.

You base your thesis that hockey is popular in Northern Europe, and attendance figures from Sweden and Finland. We already know it is popular in those countries, but maybe you should look at attendance figures in Denmark and Norway. If you get more 1500 people to a regular season game in Denmark, it's been a very good day. We won't suddenly get 10000 just because the teams will be playing Modo. No one outside of hardcore hockey fans will even know who Modo is, and thus the general public wouldn't even care. Atleast now even the stupidest person in Rødovre knows that Herlev are a bunch of jerks, and they need to get their ***** kicked. This huge market you are talking about, just isn't there.

He was talking about a potential market , there is base for a greater market. You cant compare the attendance numbers from the Danish league and just conclude it would be the same. Level of competition and quality of the game would be a factor too , a lot of games in the danish league are pointless . The competition is almost none existing.
I would like to see a Danish team in KHL, in the long run preferably one based in copenhagen.

 

[Urbanskog]

I'm not much of a fan of these regional international leagues, an all-European league should be the way to go.

 

[admire]

I'm not much of a fan of these regional international leagues, an all-European league should be the way to go.

There are no danish team that would even come close to having the funding to be in such a league. The logistic costs would be high, and its unlikely that it would result in increases in attendance. At least not a lot.

Hockey popularity in Denmark is not just the case of other sports being more popular, but a much bigger problem is that its so regional. The "biggest" teams mostly come from pretty small cities where hockey is very popular but where there is a national limit to how much you can grow. Last years champion Sønderjyske hails from a town with a towering population of 7,655 people.

They get a lot of support of the region, but there is limited growth potential, and sponsors.

I think it would be a large task to convince clubs who are constantly battling to survive, to take such a chance.

Football is a pretty popular sport in Denmark, Norway and Sweden but The Royal League failed quite quickly. I don't see how hockey would fare better with a similar solution.

Maybe norway, sweden and finland could figure something out themselves, but I don't see a danish team being apart of it.

 

[EvilDead]

In my opinion, for a Scandinavian League to exist and be successful in any capacity, it would first have be a league with Swedish and Finnish teams only first; and then later bring in teams from Norway. As far as Denmark goes, I'm not 100% if that would be feasible, like other users have said.

Furthermore, relegation would absolutely have to be out of the picture in order to build a regional league like this; or at the very least, slowly phase it in. Not saying that the league couldn't work with a promotion and relegation system if the league was just contained to Sweden and Finland; but if you want to a Scandinavian league that has at least two team from each country, relegation could hurt the league in the long run as you could have a scenario where the league is only comprised of Swedish and Finnish teams and no teams from Norway and Denmark (making the idea of a Scandinavian league with teams based in all 4 countries redundant).

 

[OskarOskarius]

A hypothetical Nordic hockey league would have mostly Swedish teams, a couple of Finnish teams and a few Norwegian teams, at least if you go by attendance stats. One could argue that Norway is too far behind Sweden and Finland toc compete but there are actually some Norwegian teams (Stavanger, Storhamar and Vålerenga) that would be competitive. Storhamar eliminated Djurgården in the CHL group stage and nearly got passed Skellefteå AIK in the play offs, so there's some good hockey in Norway. Commercially I'd say Stavanger and Vålerenga are two possible top teams in a future Nordic hockey league.

Rank	Team	Total	Average	League
1	Frölunda	161207	10075	SHL
2	Djurgården	113815	7588	SHL
3	Färjestad	104508	6967	SHL
4	HIFK	123962	6886	SML
5	Malmö	101138	6743	SHL
6	HV71	90511	6465	SHL
7	Linköping	98330	6146	SHL
8	Brynäs	80918	5395	SHL
9	Luleå	80814	5388	SHL
10	Tappara	89600	5270	SML
11	TPS	98821	5201	SML
12	Kärpät	98265	5171	SML
13	Örebro	77109	5141	SHL
14	Ilves	91258	4803	SML
15	Leksand	74046	4628	HA
16	Skellefteå	68140	4543	SHL
17	Växjö	67624	4508	SHL
18	AIK	76282	4487	HA
19	Ässät	77666	4314	SML
20	Rögle	60127	4295	SHL
21	Mora	66119	4132	SHL
22	Timrå	56968	4069	SHL
23	Storhamar	58847	3923	GL
24	Björklöven	66072	3887	HA
25	Pelicans	74864	3743	SML
26	Stavanger	62555	3679	GL
27	HPK	69396	3652	SML
28	JYP	64820	3601	SML
29	KooKoo	62118	3451	SML
30	Lukko	61923	3440	SML
31	KalPa	64432	3391	SML
32	SaiPa	62626	3296	SML
33	MODO	52306	3269	HA
34	Västerås	55470	3263	HA
35	Södertälje	51575	3034	HA
36	Sport	58031	2901	SML
37	Jukurit	54480	2867	SML
38	Karlskrona	43378	2552	HA
39	Oskarshamn	41287	2429	HA
40	Karlskoga	40455	2380	HA
41	SønderjyskE	58632	2345	ML
42	Vita Hästen	35189	2199	HA
43	Sparta Sarpsborg	32023	2134	GL
44	Aalborg Pirates	52314	2093	ML
45	Lillehammer	30712	1919	GL
46	Tingsryd	29450	1732	HA
47	Herning Blue Fox	38201	1528	ML
48	Almtuna	24016	1501	HA
49	Västervik	23012	1438	HA
50	IF Frisk Asker	20645	1376	GL

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

SHL: Swedish Hockey Liga
SML: SM-Liiga (Finland)
HA: HockeyAllsvenskan (Swedish second division)
GL: GET-ligaen (Norway)
ML: Metal Ligaen (Denmark)

If we look at social media then there's no Danish team in the top 50. The most popular non-Swedish/non-Finnish team is Stavanger Oilers, closely followed by Vålerenga. Storhamar is also doing better than some Swedish and Finnish top division teams.

#	Team	Facebook	Twitter	Instagram	Total	Land
1	Frölunda	123,898	54	64,9	242,798	Sweden
2	Jokerit	92	39,5	62,5	194	Finland
3	Djurgården	118,136	25,7	42,3	186,136	Sweden
4	HIFK	84,6	41	45,7	171,3	Finland
5	Kärpät	103,3	19,7	46,2	169,2	Finland
6	Färjestad	78,360	16,1	40,7	135,16	Sweden
7	Brynäs	72,922	13,5	34,9	121,322	Sweden
8	HV71	62,831	15,8	38,8	117,431	Sweden
9	Tappara	63,3	17,6	35	115,9	Finland
10	Leksand	73,410	11,4	30,5	115,31	Sweden
11	Luleå	46,251	11,1	26,4	83,751	Sweden
12	TPS	41,3	15,7	22	79	Finland
13	Ilves	39,9	15,1	21,7	76,7	Finland
14	KalPa	44,6	10,9	18,3	73,8	Finland
15	JYP	44,3	6,3	22	72,6	Finland
16	Skellefteå	31,893	6,270	30,3	68,463	Sweden
17	Ässät	30,7	12,5	16	59,2	Finland
18	SaiPa	31,4	13,4	13	57,8	Finland
19	Växjö	21,151	9,576	22,5	53,227	Sweden
20	Modo	22,495	9,679	20,5	52,674	Sweden
21	Pelicans	25,8	12,3	13,6	51,7	Finland
22	Malmö	27,012	5,379	17	49,391	Sweden
23	Stavanger Oilers	27,9	7,1	13,7	48,7	Norway
24	Örebro	22,795	5,379	16,8	44,974	Sweden
25	Vålerenga	19,0	6,8	18,8	44,6	Norway
26	AIK	12,4885	11	19,4	42,8885	Sweden
27	Sport	20,9	8,5	13	42,4	Finland
28	Lukko	18,2	11,2	12,3	41,7	Finland
29	HPK	19,9	9,9	11,4	41,2	Finland
30	Linköping	16,269	7,760	17,1	41,129	Sweden
31	Storhamar	19	5,6	15,9	40,5	Norway
32	Rögle	19,358	2,281	15,2	36,839	Sweden
33	KooKoo	14,3	5,9	10,8	31	Finland
34	Jukurit	14,2	4,6	8,5	27,3	Finland
35	Timrå	13,474	4,435	9,259	27,168	Sweden
36	Björklöven	13,716	2,946	9,164	25,826	Sweden
37	Västerås	15,169	3,893	6,493	25,555	Sweden
38	Södertälje	14,969	3,475	6,047	24,491	Sweden
39	Karlskrona	8,595	4,261	5,945	18,801	Sweden
40	Karlskoga	10,041	3,085	5,505	18,631	Sweden
41	Mora	9,127	2,392	4,953	16,472	Sweden
42	Lillehammer	8,0	2,7	5,0	15,7	Norway
43	Vita hästen	11,308	2,338	1,628	15,274	Sweden
44	Frisk Asker	8,2	2,4	4,3	14,9	Norway
45	Sparta Warriors	7,7	1,1	4,6	13,4	Norway
46	Stjernen	6,8	1,6	2,8	11,2	Norway
47	Västervik	3,173	1,427	5,205	9,805	Sweden
48	Oskarshamn	3,549	2,312	3,932	9,793	Sweden
49	Almtuna	4,733	1,462	3,445	9,64	Sweden
50	Tingsryd	4,193	1,792	2,388	8,373	Sweden

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Perhaps the most interesting question is what level media rights are on. In Sweden the SHL is making more than €50 million per year in TV rights. I have read that SM-Liiga makes €20 million and I have no idea about GET-ligaen and Metal-ligaen. Would be interesting to know.

To summarize: right now there's no commercial reason to create a Nordic league with an even number of Swedish and Finnish teams. More than half of all teams would be Swedish, if we take attendance, social media exposure and media rights into account. Besides Sweden and Finland, a Nordic league should probably focus on Norway for growth. Denmark have seemingly not matured enough to play in a Nordic league.

A possible format could be a South/Western and North/Eastern conference. 10 teams in each, with the most popular Swedish and Finnish teams to maximize the commercial value. This is not a new concept. I have heard about it before. Someone once called these conferences "Atlantic" and "Baltic" respectively.

Atlantic Conference: 7 Swedish teams + 3 Norwegian teams

Stavanger Oilers, Stavanger, Norway
Vålerenga, Oslo, Norway
Storhamar, Hamar/Hedmarken region, Norway
Frölunda Indians, Gothenburg, Sweden
HV71, Jonkoping, Sweden
Malmö Redhawks, Malmo, Sweden
Färjestad, Karlstad, Sweden
Leksand, Leksand/Falu-Borlange-region, Sweden
Rögle, Ängelholm/Helsingborg-Landskrona region, Sweden

Baltic Conference: 5 Swedish teams + 5 Finnish teams

Djurgården, Stockholm, Sweden
AIK, Stockholm, Sweden
Brynäs, Gävle-Sandviken region, Sweden
Luleå, Luleå, Sweden
Linköping, Linköping, Sweden
HIFK, Helsinki, Finland
Tappara, Tampere, Finland
TPS, Turku, Finland
Kärpät, Oulu, Finland
Ilves, Tampere Finland

The Baltic conference would be rebalanced if Jokerit joined the Nordic hockey league (4 Swedish teams + 6 Finnish teams).

 

[Rigafan]

I have recently been reading up on many of the leagues in Northern Europe, in particular Liiga, SHL, Get-Ligaen, Metal Ligaen and the Icelandic hockey League. And it got me thinking about why the Nordic Countries of Northern Europe haven't tried forming a Nordic Elite League yet. Many of these leagues already have and do attract some premier players. I think if someone were to come along and form a larger encompassing league in this area of the world, it could really heighten the level of play in Northern Europe. Coupled with a lower level relegation or development league, hockey could be stronger in Northern Europe than it ever was. They could possibly even rival the KHL in terms of attracting free agents in Europe.
Why hasn't this happened yet and what are the road blocks preventing it from happening?

The North American style as you said is very hard to replicate in Europe. Fans just don't seem to care so much.

Look at the Champions Hockey League, the 'main' teams from Sweden/Finland/Swiss etc.. mostly play to 50% capacity when its a CHL game as the fans aren't so interested.

 

[OskarOskarius]

The North American style as you said is very hard to replicate in Europe. Fans just don't seem to care so much.

Look at the Champions Hockey League, the 'main' teams from Sweden/Finland/Swiss etc.. mostly play to 50% capacity when its a CHL game as the fans aren't so interested.

The CHL despite its name a cup, not a league, and there's a clear difference playing other Nordic teams and playing German/Swiss/Czech teams. The geographical nature of Sweden also helps a lot, since Swedes in southern Sweden are closer to Oslo/Copenhagen than Stockholm and people in Stockholm are closer to Helsinki than Gothenburg/Malmö.

 

[Toro2017]

Lets take northern part of Germany in. So four division with each having six teams.

north sweden:
Djurgårdens
AIK
Brynäs
Skellefteå
Luleå
Modo / team from Norway

south sweden:
Frölunda
Färjestad
HV-71
Växjö
Malmö
Rögle / team from Denmark

finland:
Kärpät
TPS
Tappara
HIFK
Jyp
KalPa / Dinamo Riga

germany:
Berlin
Wolfsburg
Düsseldorf
Iserlohn
Köln
Krefeld

Then southern part of Germany, Switzerland, Czech rep. and EBEL could form another 24 team competition with four division and six team in each division.

 

[Urbanskog]

I really don't get the appeal of this idea. A league spanning the entire continent would certainly be something but this Nordic league just feels like a weird hybrid.

 

[OskarOskarius]

I really don't get the appeal of this idea. A league spanning the entire continent would certainly be something but this Nordic league just feels like a weird hybrid.

The Nordic region is underestimated. Population is 27 million. GDP is equivalent of that of Russia and GDP per capita is one of the highest in the world. The commercial potential in a Nordic league is very high. If you can make hockey in Norway and Denmark as popular as it is in Switzerland you would have the second biggest league in the world.

 

[Urbanskog]

The Nordic region is underestimated. Population is 27 million. GDP is equivalent of that of Russia and GDP per capita is one of the highest in the world. The commercial potential in a Nordic league is very high. If you can make hockey in Norway and Denmark as popular as it is in Switzerland you would have the second biggest league in the world.

Why restrict yourself to a mere subregion though?

 

[OskarOskarius]

Why restrict yourself to a mere subregion though?

No good reason really. A nordic hockey league is more interesting than the current domestic leagues, but a pan-European league would of course be more interesting than a nordic hockey league. I hope European clubs do what's possible to develop hockey in Europe.

 

[Ducks76]

The Nordic region is underestimated. Population is 27 million. GDP is equivalent of that of Russia and GDP per capita is one of the highest in the world. The commercial potential in a Nordic league is very high. If you can make hockey in Norway and Denmark as popular as it is in Switzerland you would have the second biggest league in the world.

Yes the Nordic region has nearly 30 Million peaople. Not far away from Canada(35 Million). But the big question is,how much money would like the economy put into the Nordic League?

 

[OskarOskarius]

Yes the Nordic region has nearly 30 Million peaople. Not far away from Canada(35 Million). But the big question is,how much money would like the economy put into the Nordic League?

Because of multiplier effects a nordic league would generate more than "the sum of its parts", if you know what I mean. Eg one match between Frölunda Indians - Jokerit (1) would probably generate more in revenues than Frölunda - Timrå + Jokerit - KooKoo (2) even though you might get 100 % more ticket sales in (2) than (1), because Frölunda Indians - Jokerit generates a higher total exposure. It's not like I have done any math on how much revenues you'd get from a nordic league. But it would be a clear improvement from having separate leagues.

 

[Ducks76]

Because of multiplier effects a nordic league would generate more than "the sum of its parts", if you know what I mean. Eg one match between Frölunda Indians - Jokerit (1) would probably generate more in revenues than Frölunda - Timrå + Jokerit - KooKoo (2) even though you might get 100 % more ticket sales in (2) than (1), because Frölunda Indians - Jokerit generates a higher total exposure. It's not like I have done any math on how much revenues you'd get from a nordic league. But it would be a clear improvement from having separate leagues.

Yes right but this league must to be competitive(money). This League must to have a stong financial foundation. It wouldn't make sense otherwise if the league were plundered from KHL.

 

[OskarOskarius]

Yes right but this league must to be competitive(money). This League must to have a stong financial foundation. It wouldn't make sense otherwise if the league were plundered from KHL.

I would say that there's a "net leakage" to Switzerland and Germany as well. Not to mention AHL. The SHL+SM-Liiga would surely be stronger financially than the DEL and NLA so only a merger between Sweden and Finland would make a difference. To get into equilibrium with the KHL you would need hockey to become more popular in Norway and Denmark and that's just a fantasy at the moment obviously.

 

[Ducks76]

I would say that there's a "net leakage" to Switzerland and Germany as well. Not to mention AHL. The SHL+SM-Liiga would surely be stronger financially than the DEL and NLA so only a merger between Sweden and Finland would make a difference. To get into equilibrium with the KHL you would need hockey to become more popular in Norway and Denmark and that's just a fantasy at the moment obviously.

Anyway that would be a great thing. I'd be fantastic if that ever became reality.

 

[Kiekkofani]

Hockey Clubs are nowadays looking for the growth like any other listed companies in commercial businesses. Times are changing, traditional boundaries are no longer there. We will see a bigger league in Europe, consolidation or however you call it, to take a place as media rights are driving the change.

CHL is paving the way for the bigger and bigger European League. It is today the fastest growing league in the world and this growth has been - and is - sustainable. This said sustainable growth is absent in KHL. The level of play field is based on subsidies in KHL which sustainability depends on political stability. Eventually CHL remains on growth track and continues to grow or move into another, larger format. This leads national leagues to see fall in game rounds they are playing within the regular season in order to facilitate a higher level league.

North European hockey clubs have been in history more hockey rather than business oriented. The sudden, successful raise of KHL, Central European, Great Britain have find North European Clubs to be rather laggards in terms of growth than leaders in the overall Hockey development. Hockey Business doesn't require anymore comprehensive and costly junior development programs but capability to fill the big stadiums and acquire the right talent. This means the change for smaller clubs business models, those traditionally merited hockey clubs are seeing their revenues in the future through player/coach development, export business instead of local game events only. Everyone is growing, that's the main platform requirement for the pan-European league to get off. North European hockey future for the smaller clubs or stadiums, may lie more on developing and exporting hockey professionals rather than earning revenues locally only.

 

[Albatros]

As long as the NHL gets to steal European talent for trinkets it's hard to see how a successful business model could be built around youth development in hockey the way some clubs operate it in soccer.

 

[VictorLustig]

As long as the NHL gets to steal European talent for trinkets it's hard to see how a successful business model could be built around youth development in hockey the way some clubs operate it in soccer.

Only a very, very small minority of talent teams develop will leave for the NHL. It's the other way around actually, good teams usually rely on cheap young players from within the organization to have success.