Non- Sellouts in Larger Markets

[royals119]

So is buying a TV a pure luxury. What I am getting at is how people can justify buying a TV and think nothing of it. Yet when it comes to a hockey game, its too expensive.

First of all, who are these people who "think nothing" of buying a new TV? Anybody I know gives a purchase like that plenty of thought.

Secondly, you can get a decent 60"+ 4K TV now for under $500, and it will last several years, and provide entertainment every night if you want it. You watch a movie the night you get it, fun night - you want to watch another movie the next day, no problem, and you don't need to buy another TV. The hockey game costs almost as much and it is over in 3 hours. You want to watch another live game, shell out another $500. The value proposition isn't even close. Even if you add in the cost of cable and streaming services and the electricity and snacks from the grocery store, or delivery food, you are so far ahead on the TV compared to the hockey game it isn't even close.

 

[stealth1]

First of all, who are these people who "think nothing" of buying a new TV? Anybody I know gives a purchase like that plenty of thought.

Secondly, you can get a decent 60"+ 4K TV now for under $500, and it will last several years, and provide entertainment every night if you want it. You watch a movie the night you get it, fun night - you want to watch another movie the next day, no problem, and you don't need to buy another TV. The hockey game costs almost as much and it is over in 3 hours. You want to watch another live game, shell out another $500. The value proposition isn't even close. Even if you add in the cost of cable and streaming services and the electricity and snacks from the grocery store, or delivery food, you are so far ahead on the TV compared to the hockey game it isn't even close.

I'm talking about when people buy a tv or other electronics on black Friday. Majority of the time its a last minute decision. Its funny people can justify a TV that's expensive but can't justify paying the same for a night out.

 

[BKIslandersFan]

I'm talking about when people buy a tv or other electronics on black Friday. Majority of the time its a last minute decision. Its funny people can justify a TV that's expensive but can't justify paying the same for a night out.

Bruh...what?

buying TV is a one time expense that can last for years.

 

[stealth1]

Bruh...what?

buying TV is a one time expense that can last for years.

I understand a TV lasts for years but what I am getting at is how people claim they have little money. They can justify paying for a TV that they probably don't need but won't pay for night out.

 

[BKIslandersFan]

I understand a TV lasts for years but what I am getting at is how people claim they have little money. They can justify paying for a TV that they probably don't need but won't pay for night out.

No one is saying they can’t afford to go for one game, they cant afford it if its 41 games.

 

[stealth1]

No one is saying they can’t afford to go for one game, they cant afford it if its 41 games.

That's not what most are saying in this thread. Most are saying sell outs aren't happening cause they can't afford to take their family to even one game.

Yes games are expensive but you don't need to get the best seats or a game on a weekend.

 

[Bostonzamboni]

The other issue no one seems to talk about is the long term effects of expanding the league size.

To describe my point, when the league only had 24 (or less) teams, then on average your team statistically should win the cup every 24 years, or about once in a generation. Now obviously it wont work out evenly that way, but if you look at the years 1979-1998, about 2/3rds of the teams that existed prior to 1985 won a cup somewhere in that 20 year period.

Winning the cup does magical things to energize the fans for years to come. It also creates a generational connection of “remember back in 19xx when our team won the cup?”. Winning the cup creates hero’s for the kids on the team, and brings in fans to the stadium for years after the cup was won.

Fast forward to today, with soon to be 32 teams. People of many (most?) franchises (not just Maple Leafs fans) might go their whole adult life and never see the cup come to town. There is just something that happens to a fan base when you hoist the cup, and going from 20ish teams to 32 means the cup won’t be coming as frequently.

And it's now 16 wins to win the Cup instead of 8 or 12. Two months of playoff hockey is almost asking too much of a Cup winner's fans. Unlike baseball and football post seasons, the NBA and and NHL demand two months of the fans' intense attention.

 

[Ted Hoffman]

I'll put this from the perspective of a Blues fan who can afford to drop money on tickets if I choose, when I choose.

The next chance I'd have to go to a Blues game in St. Louis would be December 29 vs. Winnipeg. For two (2) tickets to that game, the cheapest seats currently available through the Blues website are $90 each to sit in section 330 (end where the Blues defend twice), row J. To sit on the end where the Blues attack twice, it would be $98 per to sit in section 314, row G. For four (4) tickets, it's $110 at the cheapest for section 327, row M; to sit on the end where the Blues attack twice, it would be $125 per for section 306, row M.

To sit up high, circa the blue lines or goal lines (where I prefer to watch), it's only more expensive.

And remember, that's a price per ticket, excluding fees. (Not checking to see what fees are from Ticketmaster, I just presume it's two pints of blood + your firstborn + your firstborn's firstborn and am surprised if it's less, but let's say 10% of the stated price - which might well be low.) So, if I'm taking a kid we're talking easily $200 plus parking (say we take Metro to the game at $5 round trip), plus whatever concessions and merchandise we get. If I'm wanting to take the wife and kids that are at home, we're easily at $550 or more.

$550+ for a one-night event + hassle of the crowd, getting in/out of bathrooms, dealing with traffic, and getting home around midnight or so? Or, $449 for a 75" HDTV where we can sit comfortably at home, do what we want for dinner, pause action to hit bathrooms if we need, and so on? It's a no-brainer. Hell, even last year I got 4 tickets to Tampa Bay while the team was still in the dumps before it caught fire, and that was still nearly $400 to sit in section 310, 3rd row from the top; it was neat, but that was also a birthday present for someone. I wouldn't do that even semi-regularly at that cost; I'd rather have spent the money watching at home.

[For the next non-weekend game, it would be January 11 vs. the Rangers; 2 tickets are $76 per, 4 tickets are $93 per - both excluding fees. And, since it's a weeknight game, there's school and work the next morning and all that and you're still not getting home until about midnight.]

Don't get me wrong, I love to go watch games in-person, but for the current cost/value I'm not going to games unless there's a really, really compelling reason to do so.

 

[Clinton Comets EHL]

I understand a TV lasts for years but what I am getting at is how people claim they have little money. They can justify paying for a TV that they probably don't need but won't pay for night out.

What????? I think I get what you are trying to say but it's not coming out right.

 

[Clinton Comets EHL]

Then don't go, this is exactly why minor leagues are popular(as they should be).

Our AHL season tickets are 11 rows from center ice. $25.00 each. 38 home games...2 st cost $1200.00

I wouldn't think of paying hundreds to an NHL game.

Additionally, AHLTV...every game every team...including playoffs $99.00 for whole year.

Bad weather nights or if a team is in town for the 5 th time in a month there is a serious urge to stay home.

The streaming is excellent.

 

[FrankMTL]

For the Habs, I doubt Molson is losing any sleep at night. His average attendance is the same as last year, and only about 200-250 people from capacity. He has one of the largest arenas in the league, with one of the highest ticket prices in the league, and for the cherry on the sundae, they have one of the lowest payrolls in the league.

The only thing he has to worry about, is that the demand is not what it used to be. But at the same time, they had a pretty horrible product for many years now, and they're still able to charge what they want. The thing about Montreal is, if ever they do get a very competitive team, people will come back in droves. It's not like he's competing with an NBA or NFL team.

 

[Nac Mac Feegle]

A few people have touched on it already, but a lot of it is convenience. Cities (for the most part) are getting bigger and bigger, while transportation infrastructure isn't improving. That means longer commute times for the average person. And that's a daily thing...when you have a daily routine of wasting 1-3 hours in traffic just to go to and from your job, then adding on your work hours on top of that, and any family/personal things (picking up groceries, appointments, etc)...that's one hell of a lot of time on the roads in a week.

Tacking a few hours of additional commute time to go to a hockey game....it just isn't as palatable as it used to be. A lot of folks are simple burnt out. Too much time trying to elbow your way through the city to work and live....when the work day is done, most folks just want to rest and relax. And when you can get a better experience at home on your big screen smart tv...why not? It's not like arenas have done much of anything (except jack up the volume of the between-play music) to change in the in-person experience in years. And the game itself isn't as much fun to watch live....less big hits, less chaos, less rivalaries...and the fast skill plays are hard to really catch live without the use of checking the jumbotron for a replay. The increased prices are just the final straw on a long list of disincentives.

 

[Drury_Sakic]

Obviously not a huge deal. Bit concerning though that there's no longer sellouts in LA, NY, Philly and now Montreal.

Is this the new trend? Just cheaper to watch all sports at home? Coincidence?

LA is terrible. NY is average at best. Philly is decent but largely unknown and not particularly flashy, have to earn the fans trust that they are worth spending money on. Habs have lost 7 in a row, maybe not terrible, but also not a great team.

 

[Cyclones Rock]

Our AHL season tickets are 11 rows from center ice. $25.00 each. 38 home games...2 st cost $1200.00

I wouldn't think of paying hundreds to an NHL game.

Additionally, AHLTV...every game every team...including playoffs $99.00 for whole year.

Bad weather nights or if a team is in town for the 5 th time in a month there is a serious urge to stay home.

The streaming is excellent.

The value of minor league tickets is amazing. Here's my Cincinnati Cyclones ST deal:

I sit next to a long term friend of mine 6 rows up from the bench and right above the (home) player tunnel. My single seat cost $442. I get 36 games plus 4 "buddy passes". I also get the first two home playoff games and even that money ($42) is refunded if the team doesn't make the post season.

Unused tickets can also be exchanged for any future home game.

I also get 3 full season ticket holder events where I have full access to the coach (lucky guy that he is) and a lot of other perks.

If I were to buy 2 lower level center seats for a Columbus Blue Jackets game vs. a premium opponent on a weekend, pay for up close parking and get whatever I wanted at the concession stand, that would run me in the $350-400 range-or very close to what I pay for a full season of tickets at the minor league level. That's why I (along with a limited budget) only go to weekday CBJ games and get the cheapest available secondary market seat that I can. NHL games can be seen in many markets for next to nothing if one doesn't have to sit low and is willing to walk for lower priced or free parking and doesn't gorge on concessions and only goes to week night games.

Should the NHL hit their wall on pricing and have to reduce tickets, it's hardly the end of the world. Demand will increase at lower prices and the salary cap may be $55 million instead of $80 million (players only average $2 million instead of $3 million per year) and the product will be the same. The NHL will be OK for a long time although franchise values will take a hit if revenue falls and as a fan I couldn't care less about ROI for a billionaire on his sports toy.

 

[LeftWingLocked]

I understand a TV lasts for years but what I am getting at is how people claim they have little money. They can justify paying for a TV that they probably don't need but won't pay for night out.

I think it's code word for "We have little money but we don't want to waste it on hockey". I can afford to go but I just don't want to spend $500 to watch hockey or any other sporting event.

 

[Newfoundland]

Our AHL season tickets are 11 rows from center ice. $25.00 each. 38 home games...2 st cost $1200.00

I wouldn't think of paying hundreds to an NHL game.

Additionally, AHLTV...every game every team...including playoffs $99.00 for whole year.

Bad weather nights or if a team is in town for the 5 th time in a month there is a serious urge to stay home.

The streaming is excellent.

AHL hockey is by far the best value in North America.

 

[JETZZZ]

For markets like NY, LA, Toronto, I think their next arenas will be much smaller.
4,000-5,000 seat arenas selling tickets exclusively to the wealthiest. Actors/directors, judges, famous musicians, politicians, surgeons, lawyers, you get the idea.
Tickets will start at $1000 a piece, and come playoff time, could cost as much as a car.
The only way a non-millionaire will get inside is by getting a job working in the arena, or a call-up from the minors.

 

[oknazevad]

For markets like NY, LA, Toronto, I think their next arenas will be much smaller.
4,000-5,000 seat arenas selling tickets exclusively to the wealthiest. Actors/directors, judges, famous musicians, politicians, surgeons, lawyers, you get the idea.
Tickets will start at $1000 a piece, and come playoff time, could cost as much as a car.
The only way a non-millionaire will get inside is by getting a job working in the arena, or a call-up from the minors.

Except the arenas have a lot more uses than just hockey.

 

[BKIslandersFan]

Except the arenas have a lot more uses than just hockey.

I think he was joking.

 

[Whalers Fan]

What do you expect? I pay 30 bucks to see the London Knigjts. I'd be pretty pissed if a NHL game was less than 60-70 bucks.

Concessions are for people with poor self control and money management this doesn't matter if you're at the cineplex, a rock concert whatever.

The Knights are probably one of the more expensive major junior tickets out there, though. When the Whalers were in Plymouth, my center ice season tickets cost about $12 per ticket, and we got free parking. For USA Hockey's NTDP, our season tickets work out to about $9 per ticket for those same center ice seats.

Meanwhile, the Red Wings new arena has upper bowl seats with absolutely no leg room selling for $70, plus $40 for parking. Lower bowl seats are at least twice that price. Even if you bypass the outrageous concession prices, it's still a steep price to pay when I can sit at home and watch the NHL games on a 70-inch 4K display in a nice, comfy recliner with the beverage of my choice, no parking fee, no traffic, and no line for the bathroom. I can pay for an entire season's NHL.tv subscription for less than the cost of attending a single NHL game in person.

I am done attending major sports and concerts in person. The cost has risen many orders of magnitude greater than inflation, and it's just not worth it anymore with the in-home experience being better than it's ever been.

 

[Drury_Sakic]

I think it's code word for "We have little money but we don't want to waste it on hockey". I can afford to go but I just don't want to spend $500 to watch hockey or any other sporting event.

Or, $500 for a TV I will use to watch sports, among many other things, for 6-10 years....or $500 to go to one 2-3 hour sporting event. If it comes down to it and in a given year I need the TV, new couch, ext, I will invest in that rather than pay to go to a hockey game. I think a good chunk of fans are starting to go down that path for every sport.

 

[AdmiralsFan24]

Is all this expensive parking that people pay out of sheer convenience or is there no free parking available anywhere?

 

[93LEAFS]

All of these NHL teams could sell out a game at the right price. And, we also know businesses will tolerate non-sell outs if it is the pricing mechanism that has maximized revenue from ticket sales. Just looking at % of seating capacity is fairly flawed. They could easily dynamically make the prices of these non-sold tickets cheaper, but it may stop people from paying what they already are.

 

[Cyclones Rock]

Is all this expensive parking that people pay out of sheer convenience or is there no free parking available anywhere?

For the arenas I've been to in the past 7 or so years:

Easy free parking in Columbus, Detroit, Florida, Buffalo and IIRC St. Louis. Tampa with a 15-20 minutes walk. I have parked free in Carolina.

Well, the Detroit free parking is a little dicey, but hey, it's free

 

[Whalers Fan]

For the arenas I've been to in the past 7 or so years:

Easy free parking in Columbus, Detroit, Florida, Buffalo and IIRC St. Louis. Tampa with a 15-20 minutes walk. I have parked free in Carolina.

Well, the Detroit free parking is a little dicey, but hey, it's free

There is a free shuttle bus available from a restaurant called Nemo's to the new arena in Detroit. Another option would be to park cheaply at Wayne State University and ride the new M-1 rail system to the arena -- not free, but cheaper than the $40 - $45 parking near the arena (it's $20 if you park on the other side of the freeway and walk several blocks).

The first two options above add quite a bit of time to whatever your normal commute would be to the arena. When the Wings played at Joe Louis Arena, there was cheap (under $10) parking available a few blocks away, and the Nemo's shuttle bus was also an option.

I've been to downtown Raleigh quite a few times, and there is quite a bit of free parking available (we've never paid to park). Never been to a game there, though, so I'm not sure how far you would have to walk to the arena or how early you would need to get there.