Non-draft pursuit of young defenseman

Hen Kolland

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Feb 22, 2018
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Want to gauge the interest, and the perceived feasibility, of attempting to use our depth and "expendable" assets to return young defensive prospects/players. Just through conversation, someone mentioned the idea of targeting some of the young, highly touted defensemen in the Hurricanes organization. The premise makes sense...Carolina has a very strong, young defensive core including Faulk (25), Fleury (21), Hanifin (21), Slavin (23), van Riemsdyk (26), Bean (19), but have never been able to put together a strong offensive punch with their forwards. Considering that Carolina is in position to select Andrei Svechnikov, the Wings could make Evgeny available in addition to players like Athanasiou and Nyquist, all who can provide a little bit of scoring depth for Carolina, plus the Vegas first, and a variety of second and third round picks as the kicker. Feel free to add names to this list as you see fit.

Do you think that the Wings have enough expendable pieces to target any of the players above (probably not Faulk/TvR due to being a bit too old), and would you be willing to part with some of these pieces in order to address a position of greater need, outside the standard draft and develop approach?

Yes I know there will be a lot of people who will be against this concept because it hurts the "tank" next year, I'm just trying to think outside of the box of how we can make progress towards the rebuild without relying on the draft as the one and only savior. Looking at the Devils and the Taylor Hall trade as inspiration; a little bit of draft luck, a little bit of restructuring, and catch lightning in a bottle.
 

jkutswings

hot piss hockey
Jul 10, 2014
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Good topic. I would add Winnipeg to that list of rocks to turn over, depending on how the Trouba saga continues to unfold. Normally, defensemen don't go anywhere, so it's something like a surplus of supply (formerly Anaheim, now Carolina) or an issue of contract (Trouba) that makes a deal more possible.

But long story short, Detroit definitely needs to exhaust all avenues to help the blue line.
 

Hen Kolland

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Feb 22, 2018
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Good topic. I would add Winnipeg to that list of rocks to turn over, depending on how the Trouba saga continues to unfold. Normally, defensemen don't go anywhere, so it's something like a surplus of supply (formerly Anaheim, now Carolina) or an issue of contract (Trouba) that makes a deal more possible.

But long story short, Detroit definitely needs to exhaust all avenues to help the blue line.

I agree that we should be looking at anyone with a strong group of defensemen that could sacrifice a body without taking too much of a hit. It's going to be the most likely way to strike a deal. I felt highlighting Carolina made the most sense because while they need top end talent at forward, they need depth scoring as well. Winnipeg has scoring in bunches, so I can really only see a move being made with a team that can provide a very good center...something we don't have extra of by any means.
 

SirloinUB

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Aug 20, 2010
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Good topic. I would add Winnipeg to that list of rocks to turn over, depending on how the Trouba saga continues to unfold. Normally, defensemen don't go anywhere, so it's something like a surplus of supply (formerly Anaheim, now Carolina) or an issue of contract (Trouba) that makes a deal more possible.

But long story short, Detroit definitely needs to exhaust all avenues to help the blue line.

Calgary would be another team worth looking at. They lack depth upfront and have no no picks in the first 3 rounds. They also have a nice stable of d prospects outside of the NHL with Andersson, Kylington and Valamaki all looking solid in their development.
 
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FireBird71

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Aug 6, 2015
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Would rather the Team keep stacked no their chips the next couple years and attack Free Agency when guys like Kronwall and Big E's contracts are up
 

NickH8

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Jul 3, 2015
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I would love Slavin, especially if we draft Boqvist or Hughes. Those two are going to need a very good defensive defenseman on their pair and Slavin is that guy. He'll cost a lot though. Carolina is looking to play with more of an edge, according to their owner, so we could use that to sweeten the deal.

Red Wings trade:
Evgeni Svechnikov
Andreas Athanasiou
Luke Witkowski
VGK First Round Pick

Hurricanes Trade:
Jaccob Slavin
Janne Kuokkanen

Carolina adds two young forwards who could improve their scoring, and unite the Svechnikov brothers. They also get Witkowski to plug into their lineup whenever they feel they need him, and a first round pick.

Detroit adds the defensive defenseman they desperately need and a good center prospect in Kuokkanen.
 

njx9

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Feb 1, 2016
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I don't think any combination of the Wings forward "assets" get a defender worth having from basically anyone. You have to trade value to get value back, and we don't have any.

I suppose I should add that I don't think there's any point in trading for yet another mid-pair-at-best guy. Especially with Hronek and Cholo incoming. You need top pair guys.

I also find it humorous that Carolina would give a flying you-know-what about "pairing up the brothers". But hey, dream big, I guess.
 

Sparty

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Oct 2, 2015
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Red Wings trade:
Evgeni Svechnikov
Andreas Athanasiou
Luke Witkowski
VGK First Round Pick

Hurricanes Trade:
Jaccob Slavin
Janne Kuokkanen

I think realistically that package would return Faulk and not Slavin, if even that. Slavin is not going anywhere for those little bits and bobs.
 
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NickH8

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Jul 3, 2015
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I think realistically that package would return Faulk and not Slavin, if even that. Slavin is not going anywhere for those little bits and bobs.
Yeah, kind of jumped the gun.

After further though a deal revolving around Mantha for Slavin is more likely.
 

Hen Kolland

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Feb 22, 2018
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I don't think any combination of the Wings forward "assets" get a defender worth having from basically anyone. You have to trade value to get value back, and we don't have any.

I suppose I should add that I don't think there's any point in trading for yet another mid-pair-at-best guy. Especially with Hronek and Cholo incoming. You need top pair guys.

I also find it humorous that Carolina would give a flying you-know-what about "pairing up the brothers". But hey, dream big, I guess.

So because we have two potential middle pairing guys, it's not worth it to go after more? Hanifin and Slavin are already significantly better than any defensemen on our roster and both Fleury and Bean are considered better prospects than Hronek or Cholowski by a lot of so-called experts. Hanifin is almost a guarantee to be out of our price range, but any one of these players mentioned would instantly be the best D prospect in the organization, or the best defenseman on the team, and at a max age of 23. I don't see how you can't see potential value here, even if they are only 3-4 type defensemen.

I didn't really think about whether or not Carolina would care about reuniting the brothers. These aren't the Sedin's and there's no value from them being brothers. But, I do know they want to play together and the Wings are going to be hard pressed to give Evgeny meaningful playing time next year. So if there is value in Evgeny as a hockey player and you can do him a favor at the same time, I'm for it.

Now if you don't think you can put together a package that would interest Carolina, that's a different story.
 

ShelbyZ

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Apr 8, 2015
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Good topic. I would add Winnipeg to that list of rocks to turn over, depending on how the Trouba saga continues to unfold. Normally, defensemen don't go anywhere, so it's something like a surplus of supply (formerly Anaheim, now Carolina) or an issue of contract (Trouba) that makes a deal more possible.

But long story short, Detroit definitely needs to exhaust all avenues to help the blue line.

To expand upon "issue of contract", a team could also have an issue of contracts where they're over the cap and desperate to make a move to get under the limit.

This is where the argument for keeping cap space open can start to get some legs to stand on.

In the 2014 offseason both Boston and Chicago badly needed to shed salary and the Islanders badly needed dmen of actual NHL talent... Rather than overpay on the UFA market, the Isles sat on their cap space and waited it out. A few days before the regular season started, they were able to get Johnny Boychuk from Boston and a then 23 year old Nick Leddy from the Hawks for rather reasonable prices. Boychuk went for 2 2nd rounders and Leddy coupled with Kent Simpson (an ECHL level goalie prospect) was had for TJ Brennan (a guy that's basically been a career AHL dman), Anders Nilsson (who had already decided to play in the KHL), and Ville Pokka (a D prospect that had been taken at #34 two years prior).
 

SuperScript29

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Nov 17, 2017
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I would love Slavin, especially if we draft Boqvist or Hughes. Those two are going to need a very good defensive defenseman on their pair and Slavin is that guy. He'll cost a lot though. Carolina is looking to play with more of an edge, according to their owner, so we could use that to sweeten the deal.

Red Wings trade:
Evgeni Svechnikov
Andreas Athanasiou
Luke Witkowski
VGK First Round Pick

Hurricanes Trade:
Jaccob Slavin
Janne Kuokkanen

Carolina adds two young forwards who could improve their scoring, and unite the Svechnikov brothers. They also get Witkowski to plug into their lineup whenever they feel they need him, and a first round pick.

Detroit adds the defensive defenseman they desperately need and a good center prospect in Kuokkanen.

If the Canes are planning on drafting younger Svechnikov, maybe we have a chance with the deal you proposed, but I think they would part with Faulk first before Slavin.
 

njx9

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Feb 1, 2016
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So because we have two potential middle pairing guys, it's not worth it to go after more?

We have a team full of middle and bottom pairing defensemen. It's why they all look so bad as soon as they have to play above their position. DDK, for instance, is certainly a 4D.

Hanifin and Slavin are already significantly better than any defensemen on our roster and both Fleury and Bean are considered better prospects than Hronek or Cholowski by a lot of so-called experts. Hanifin is almost a guarantee to be out of our price range, but any one of these players mentioned would instantly be the best D prospect in the organization, or the best defenseman on the team, and at a max age of 23. I don't see how you can't see potential value here, even if they are only 3-4 type defensemen.

Slavin is equally out of our price range. We can't trade anything we have for that level of prospect, so I'm not sure why we're discussing them. We don't have the horses, period.

I didn't really think about whether or not Carolina would care about reuniting the brothers. These aren't the Sedin's and there's no value from them being brothers. But, I do know they want to play together and the Wings are going to be hard pressed to give Evgeny meaningful playing time next year. So if there is value in Evgeny as a hockey player and you can do him a favor at the same time, I'm for it.

Geno doesn't have the trade value to even be the starting point for a potential top pair D. He'd barely count as a plus. He shouldn't be treated as a centerpiece.

Now if you don't think you can put together a package that would interest Carolina, that's a different story.

Of course I don't. That's literally what I said.

njx9 said:
I don't think any combination of the Wings forward "assets" get a defender worth having from basically anyone. You have to trade value to get value back, and we don't have any.
 

Frk It

Mo Seider Less Problems
Jul 27, 2010
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Slavin will not be traded by Carolina... we should aim for Bean as he is youngest, and not on the team.

Yup, exactly. That's the only type of trade that makes sense. Anything else and you are just opening up a bunch of holes elsewhere.

Trade for a 1st rounder prospect on a team with a deep blue line or something to that effect. Someone like Valimaki or Bean.

Otherwise they are going to need to come from the draft.
 

Hen Kolland

Registered User
Feb 22, 2018
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We have a team full of middle and bottom pairing defensemen. It's why they all look so bad as soon as they have to play above their position. DDK, for instance, is certainly a 4D.

Daley and Kronwall will be gone soon, Green is gone, Jensen is a 7th at best, Ouellet is a 7th at best. Ericsson has maybe 2 more years before he is completely broken down. You don't like Bean or Fleury, how about Valimaki or Fox out of Calgary? These are all guys that would enter in the mix of what we already have of potentially good NHL players. If the worst case scenario is that we have 3 or 4 prospects pan out to all be middle pairing guys, it's better than having to run out a bunch of bottom pair and extras.

Slavin is equally out of our price range. We can't trade anything we have for that level of prospect, so I'm not sure why we're discussing them. We don't have the horses, period.

Never would dream we have enough for Slavin on what I listed, purely setting the stage for a discussion of whether or not the Wings should pursue something other than overpaying free agents or relying on the draft to work out on multiple occasions; I personally don't want to sit and wait around for the perfect storm like Buffalo did this year, after years and years and years of being horrible.

As for the Svechnikov piece, he's obviously not returning anything special, but he is a piece we can discuss as something to add. None of this is based purely off specific players, but rather everything we have available, including draft picks, roster players, prospects, cap flexibility.
 

Mister Ed

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Dec 21, 2008
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Wonder what the price would be for Valimaki out of Calgary. Wings probably have a good read on him since he's playing with Ras in Tri-Cities

He was pretty close to making Calgary last year, I think he's with the big club next year. He's up there with Kylington for their best D prospect.
 

Redder Winger

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May 4, 2017
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I'm not giving away a first and a real, NHL-proven asset for a prospect.
Get me a proven NHL defenseman 25 and under.
They take so long to develop into reliable, big-minute and winning defenseman.
 

jkutswings

hot piss hockey
Jul 10, 2014
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I'm not giving away a first and a real, NHL-proven asset for a prospect.
Get me a proven NHL defenseman 25 and under.
They take so long to develop into reliable, big-minute and winning defenseman.
But in a sense, you've answered your own question. The reason the price is so high is because of the time required and the scarcity of quality players at the position.

I'm in no hurry to sell the farm for somebody. This rebuild will take several years, whether we trade for a good defenseman or not. But I'm certainly spending considerable rescources in scouring the Earth for ways to improve the team, including a very sharp pair of tire kicking boots, to talk with anybody who will listen in the trade market (for a player on the younger side).
 

rhef3

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Jul 28, 2016
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I agree, bean would be the target as he is still young (19) and we have enough resources to get him that won't break the bank as harsh.

would use AA and svech as a starting point for bean
 

Hen Kolland

Registered User
Feb 22, 2018
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I'm not giving away a first and a real, NHL-proven asset for a prospect.
Get me a proven NHL defenseman 25 and under.
They take so long to develop into reliable, big-minute and winning defenseman.

Well two were listed in Slavin and Faulk. They might not be your personal cup of tea, but they do check the boxes. The problem is going to be the market price for someone like Slavin is going to cost things that we really can't replace immediately.

Like jkutswings said, we should be aggressive in this rebuild and know when to pull the trigger on some opportunities. Shero has been a wonderful example of what kind of reward you can get out of it with a trade like Hall-Larsson or Vatanen-Henrique. Hockey trades with a plan in mind can do wonders.
 

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