NLL teams as additional revenue sources for NHL owners

famicommander

Registered User
Aug 12, 2011
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I thought Toronto drew the most fans in NLL. I went to Wiki. to double check, here are some attendance figures. Although Buffalo and Colorado are doing well. They certainly aren't doubling the rest of the league. Where did you get your numbers?

Attendance records

Through the end of the 2010 season
All time records Total attendance
Rank Franchise Attendance '''''Home Games
1 Philadelphia Wings 2,086,517 '''''' 157
2 Buffalo Bandits 1,798,950 '''''' 143
3 Colorado Mammoth 1,663,751 '''''' 153
4 Toronto Rock 1,581,335 ''''''' 110
5 Rochester Knighthawks 1,023,425 '''''' 120

Average attendance
Rank Franchise Per Game Attendance
1 Toronto Rock 14,376
2 Philadelphia Wings 13,290
3 Buffalo Bandits 12,580
4 Calgary Roughnecks 10,956
5 Colorado Mammoth 10,874

The numbers you have are completely false:
http://www.ilindoor.com/2011/04/28/...tendance-numbers-buffalo-averages-over-17000/

http://www.sportsbusinessdaily.com/...ular-Season-Attendance-Drops-44-To-10018.aspx

http://www.sportsbusinessdaily.com/...Mammoth-Lead-NLL-To-18-Attendance-Growth.aspx

http://www.sportsbusinessdaily.com/...cker-Final-NLL-Regular-Season-Attendance.aspx

http://www.sportsbusinessdaily.com/...s/Turnstile-Tracker-Final-NLL-Attendance.aspx

http://www.sportsbusinessdaily.com/...f-03-04.aspx?hl=National Lacrosse League&sc=0

Above are numbers for every team from the last six seasons.

The Mammoth have never averaged fewer than 15,000, and that low water mark came in 2010 when they didn't win a single home game. In 2008 the Mammoth had the highest average attendance of any Pepsi Center tenant (Colorado Avalanche, Denver Nuggets, Colorado Crush).
 

famicommander

Registered User
Aug 12, 2011
2,900
1,247
Lol I wouldn't get too excited over this NLL nonsense. I'm not sure how manty years that league can really go on as a whole. I'd be shocked if in a decade it was still going.
It's been going since 1987.

There are four teams that are absolutely solid right now:
Colorado Mammoth (Shared ownership with Avalanche, founded in 2003)
Calgary Roughnecks (Shared ownership with Flames, founded 2001 )
Buffalo Bandits (Shared ownership with Sabres, founded 1992)
Toronto Rock (founded in 1998, have won six championships; team owner is building multimillion dollar training facility for team and other purposes)

The Mammoth and Bandits are known to be profitable. The Flames think they can turn a profit on the Roughnecks. If the Rock aren't turning a profit, they sure don't act like it.

Then there are three teams that seem to be stable, but could definitely be doing better:
Philadelphia Wings (founded 1986, once the flagship franchise of the league. if they start to win again they should be fine)
Minnesota Swarm (founded 2004, the team claims to have increased revenue in 2011 while heavily decreasing comps)
Edmonton Rush (founded 2005, as mentioned above the team has lost popularity due to on-field futility; also suffers from some of the same problems the Oilers do playing at Rexall)

These three teams don't seem to be in immediate danger of folding or relocating.

The two teams most NLL fans are worried about are Washington and Rochester.

The Rochester Knighthawks, founded in 1995, share ownership with the (also struggling) Hamiltion Nationals of Major League Lacrosse. Ownership has complained about lease issues and fan support has waned in recent years, but the team did just commit to a new two-year lease. The general thought is that this team would relocate rather than fold if it came down to it.

The Washington Stealth have played in their current market since 2010. Despite being dead last in attendance in both of their seasons, the team's owners have resisted calls to move the team from the suburb of Everett into Seattle or even Vancouver. The owners have deep pockets and say they're being treated well by the local arena, but it's still hard to imagine the team staying in their 8500 seat arena forever.

Then you've got the Boston Blazers, who have suspended operations for the 2012 season after being squeezed out of the TD Garden by a bad lease. Ownership claims the team will maintain a front office staff and honor all community and charity commitments while looking for a new home arena (whether it be in Massachusetts or a neighboring state) for 2013. Most NLL fans don't actually expect them to return, but it could happen.

The NLL has survived with as few as four and as many as thirteen teams and I don't think the league as a whole is going anywhere anytime soon. If it was in immediate danger of folding I don't think Pegula and the Flames would have bought into it so recently.
 

famicommander

Registered User
Aug 12, 2011
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One of the reasons Kroenke owns an NLL team is to provide programing for Altitude. The owners of the Canucks don't own their own sports network, so bringing in an NLL team would just bring in competition for the Canucks, which is a cash cow for them right now. The Mammoth can lose a little money, but if Altitude keeps viewers then all is ok. I wonder how many people would buy the Mammoth without Kroenke and his connection with Altitude?

I don't doubt the Nuggets and Avs do successful cross-promotion with the Mammoth, but you have to remember the Canucks are number one in BC. Would the Broncos gain from doing cross-promotion with the Mammoth? Probably not. They're already the most popular team in Colorado. If Vancouver got an NLL team, most of their fans would probably already be Canucks fans. While the Nuggets and Avs are always looking to gain fans, the Canucks are just looking to keep their fan support where it is.

If the owners of the Giants (WHL) owned the Pacific Coliseum, then maybe they would try and bring in NLL to fill dates, but I don't think that makes financial sense for them.
Kroenke owns an NLL team because he makes money off of it. Think about it: we know from Brad Bannister that it costs roughly 2-3 million dollars to run an NLL franchise. You've got to think that Stan Kroenke could run his team for less than Brad Bannister could, but we'll use that figure anyway. 15,866 fans per game at an average ticket price of 25 dollars yields ~3.2 million over eight home games. That is obviously a rough estimate as we don't have exact figures for PAID attendance versus tickets distributed, nor do we have exact figures for average tickets prices, but you get the idea. Now take into account sponsorship dollars, concessions, parking, merchandise sales, tv revenue, cross-promotion revenue for Rapids/Avs/Nuggets, preseason games, and postseason games (where applicable).

And since you mention the Broncos, consider this: the Broncos DO cross-promote with lacrosse. A less popular team than the Mammoth, even. The Denver Outlaws of Major League Lacrosse are owned by Pat Bowlen, owner of the Broncos. Just this year Broncos legend Terrell Davis was signing autographs, promoting his barbeque sauce, and taking the ceremonial first shot at an Outlaws game (in his own custom Outlaws jersey). Sports Authority is a principle sponsor of both the Outlaws and Major League Lacrosse on the whole. And guess who just bought the naming rights to the Broncos' home stadium, (which is also the Outlaws' home)? Sports Authority.

Consider the level of popularity and lacrosse has in British Colombia and compare it to Denver. It's not even close. With that in mind, you're honestly telling me that the Canucks couldn't do the same thing that the Sabres, Avalanche, and (soon) Flames have done?

Furthermore, I completely reject the notion that the Vancouver Canucks and Denver Broncos (or any sports team for that matter) aren't actively seeking new fans. No team is content with keeping the fanbase the same size.
 
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worstfaceoffmanever

These Snacks Are Odd
Jun 2, 2007
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Fargo, ND
I thought Toronto drew the most fans in NLL.

Toronto has been in pretty sharp decline since 2005, going from 17,123 that year to 10,067 in 2010, although they finally reversed the trend, hitting 10,930 this past season.

Colorado has been pretty up-and-down in that time period, but they're still drawing 15,000+ on a very consistent basis, and have the highest average over that seven-season span (16,459). Buffalo had a huge spike in 07 and has drawn 15,000+ ever since, drawing 17,096 in 2011.

I don't really see any benefits for NHL teams to partner with NLL clubs unless it's just a PR move, and markets that do stand to really benefit from it are already doing it.
 

GKJ

Global Moderator
Feb 27, 2002
185,633
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Lol I wouldn't get too excited over this NLL nonsense. I'm not sure how manty years that league can really go on as a whole. I'd be shocked if in a decade it was still going.

Well, it's already been more than 20.
 

startainfection*

Guest
i really hate lax but im amazed that their is no team on long island. long island middle school, high school and college students seem to love lax.
 

BRayne

Registered User
May 5, 2011
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i really hate lax but im amazed that their is no team on long island. long island middle school, high school and college students seem to love lax.

Long Island has a MLL team. MLL being field lax, the version that is popular in LI.
 

famicommander

Registered User
Aug 12, 2011
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Long Island has a MLL team. MLL being field lax, the version that is popular in LI.

The Long Island Lizards of Major League Lacrosse are actually not all that well-supported. They've been in their current market since the league was founded in 2001, but they've never drawn big crowds.

Never in their history have they drawn more than 5,000 fans per game in a season. Compare that to Denver, which has never drawn fewer than 10,000, or Boston, which consistently averages over 8,000.

Have a look at last year's numbers:
http://www.pointstreak.com/prostats/attendance.html?leagueid=323&seasonid=6756
 

IU Hawks fan

They call me IU
Dec 30, 2008
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NW Burbs
The Long Island Lizards of Major League Lacrosse are actually not all that well-supported. They've been in their current market since the league was founded in 2001, but they've never drawn big crowds.

Never in their history have they drawn more than 5,000 fans per game in a season. Compare that to Denver, which has never drawn fewer than 10,000, or Boston, which consistently averages over 8,000.

Have a look at last year's numbers:
http://www.pointstreak.com/prostats/attendance.html?leagueid=323&seasonid=6756

He meant popular as in the version people tend to play, that high schools have. Can't always base popularity on how the pro teams are doing...
 

DoyleG

Reality sucks, Princesses!
Dec 29, 2008
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YEG-->YYJ-->YWG-->YYB
To give an idea what the real issues that face NLL teams now, here was a bit from an article that detailed the Rush's problems with Northlands.

In addition to $100,000 lost in admission surcharges, Urban said he has had to pay $7,500 rent to Northlands per game, and thousands more dollars to the Oilers organization for the use of their scoreclock, and to a separate company for the use of their production facilities room.

The Rush have since signed a new deal that hopefully cleared up some of these issues (especially since Northlands is fighting over the new arena). The Roughneck's lease was also said to be an issue since they couldn't get the revenue from concessions and parking for games at the Saddledome.
 

famicommander

Registered User
Aug 12, 2011
2,900
1,247
To give an idea what the real issues that face NLL teams now, here was a bit from an article that detailed the Rush's problems with Northlands.



The Rush have since signed a new deal that hopefully cleared up some of these issues (especially since Northlands is fighting over the new arena). The Roughneck's lease was also said to be an issue since they couldn't get the revenue from concessions and parking for games at the Saddledome.

This precisely demonstrates why the Bandits and Mammoth are the two flagship franchises right now. Sharing ownership with the Sabres and Avalanche respectively basically eliminates all of those issues.
 

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