ForeverJerseyGirl
Registered User
The best we can do is hope to quarantine it at this point
Should be a long off-season around here...
Speculation: NJD Offseason Part III
- Thread starter Emperoreddy
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The best we can do is hope to quarantine it at this point
Should be a long off-season around here...
JimEIV
Registered User
- Feb 19, 2003
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Pens, Blackhawks and even Washington got lucky hitting on generational players...and the Hawks had to be horrible for nearly 3 decades.
Oilers have been bad for more than a decade and we haven't seen anything to show any change at all.
Losing and hoping to hit on a generational player is like counting on NJ Cash for Life for your retirement.
Oilers have been bad for more than a decade and we haven't seen anything to show any change at all.
Losing and hoping to hit on a generational player is like counting on NJ Cash for Life for your retirement.
Zajacs Bowl Cut
Lets Go Baby
guitarguyvic
Registered User
- Mar 31, 2010
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Tanking is a proven method?
Last decade worth of Stanley Cup champs-
Ducks - when did they purposely tank?
Red Wings - yeah no
Penguins - OK I'll give you this one
Blackhawks - didn't tank on purpose, were just a horribly run organization
Bruins - did not purposely tank
Kings - did not purposely tank
How about the remaining teams in this year's playoffs?
Blues - no
Stars - not really, weren't they missing the playoffs by just a few points most years recently?
Nashville - nope
San Jose - not even close
Tampa Bay - were not very good for a few seasons, didn't really tank though
Islanders - tanked but I don't think they did it on purpose
Capitals - maybe?
The only teams that have been tanking in the last five years are Edmonton, Buffalo, Toronto, and Columbus. And they all still stink. They've acquired "talent" and it hasn't changed jack squat for them.
This idea that tanking is a sure fire way to become a contender is more urban legend than it is real-life strategy.
Last decade worth of Stanley Cup champs-
Ducks - when did they purposely tank?
Red Wings - yeah no
Penguins - OK I'll give you this one
Blackhawks - didn't tank on purpose, were just a horribly run organization
Bruins - did not purposely tank
Kings - did not purposely tank
How about the remaining teams in this year's playoffs?
Blues - no
Stars - not really, weren't they missing the playoffs by just a few points most years recently?
Nashville - nope
San Jose - not even close
Tampa Bay - were not very good for a few seasons, didn't really tank though
Islanders - tanked but I don't think they did it on purpose
Capitals - maybe?
The only teams that have been tanking in the last five years are Edmonton, Buffalo, Toronto, and Columbus. And they all still stink. They've acquired "talent" and it hasn't changed jack squat for them.
This idea that tanking is a sure fire way to become a contender is more urban legend than it is real-life strategy.
Devil X
Call me Nostradamus
I also think a big problem with these guys is they didnt build right. Most of the time the forwards are the top players and teams take the top players.
I believe building from the net out is the way to go. The Sabres and Oilers both have forwards but are having a hard time with the D and goalie and they arent going anywhere because of it.
Lou left the Devils with (IMO) the easiest part of a "rebuild" or "retool" the forward position. As long as we have the goalie and defense we have we will not be a bottom feeder. THANK GOD!!! I would rather challenge for a playoff spot until the last day of the season then be excited about a 1st overall pick.
I believe building from the net out is the way to go. The Sabres and Oilers both have forwards but are having a hard time with the D and goalie and they arent going anywhere because of it.
Lou left the Devils with (IMO) the easiest part of a "rebuild" or "retool" the forward position. As long as we have the goalie and defense we have we will not be a bottom feeder. THANK GOD!!! I would rather challenge for a playoff spot until the last day of the season then be excited about a 1st overall pick.
SteveCangialosi123
Registered User
For me, tanking is only acceptable if your team is ravaged by injuries before the deadline and you sell off a few vets on expiring contracts. I don't think there's anything wrong with tanking in that case. But going into a season and trying to tank is disgusting.
John Pedro
Registered User
We don't need to go full-Oilers. We need a couple of top line talent. Zacha needs to be one. Our 11th pick needs to turn into a top 6 player. Boucher and Blandisi need to produce like top 6 wingers.
Add that to Henrique, Palmieri and Cammalleri and you start to have a good offense.
Our defense need at least one pure offensive guy.
Add that to Henrique, Palmieri and Cammalleri and you start to have a good offense.
Our defense need at least one pure offensive guy.
Oneiro
Registered User
- Mar 28, 2013
- 9,439
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Am I the only one who thinks it's not out of the question for this team to contend for years without ever acquiring some big name, star-type forward via UFA or the draft? (We'll see what Zacha becomes of course.)
It's certainly not the norm, I'll give you that. But, even if he's gone, Lou's fingerprints are all over this team. What's in the organization right now is classic Devils all the way.
It's certainly not the norm, I'll give you that. But, even if he's gone, Lou's fingerprints are all over this team. What's in the organization right now is classic Devils all the way.
SpeakingOfTheDevils
Devils Advocate
Boggles my mind how some people can say "uhhh, five years" about a rebuild, when we've witnessed how much this organization has changed in just one calendar year. (Think about it.. a year ago today, Lou was still GM...)
And losing intentionally for a higher pick is absolutely a losing mentality. I'm really not sure how you can spin it otherwise
And losing intentionally for a higher pick is absolutely a losing mentality. I'm really not sure how you can spin it otherwise
SteveCangialosi123
Registered User
The only way we contend without acquiring anyone is if Zacha becomes a 1st line 70+ point star player. And Larsson will need to become a legit number 1 and Severson will need to become an elite offensive dman. We'll need to hit an absurd amount of homeruns for it to work out without going outside the organization.
All I'm saying is I'd rather get a good draft pick than sign vets on the decline to long deals and be a bubble team where we have no real realistic shot at winning the cup. Unless we can sign a guy like Stamkos, it is going to be tough to accumulate high end talent. There is a reason a well run team like Toronto is rebuilding through the draft. It is going to be tough to get a good pick with Schneider so it probably isn't going to happen. But regardless I doubt Shero is going to look for quick fixes to make the playoffs next season.
JimEIV
Registered User
- Feb 19, 2003
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Contend? As in Cup? Holy Smokes...
The goal right now is to become a regular playoff team. You need to crawl before you can walk and it seems me everyone wants to sprint.
The goal right now should be to become a team that consistently wins 40+ games a year.
I honestly believe we have the players right now to begin that journey.
Contend? Even if everyone hits, how can we compete with Washington, Pittsburgh and Tampa? We still wouldn't be close to those teams. We still need high end talent to be added to the organization.
The goal should be to win the cup. The way to go is the build a team that can win, not be a middle of the road team that loses in the 1st two rounds each year.
SteveCangialosi123
Registered User
I was literally responding to a post about how we can contend without acquiring anyone...And I said it'll take an incredible (read: very unlikely) number of guys reaching max potential...
Do I think we can make the playoffs without acquiring any big names within the next 3 years? Sure. That's not the post I responded to though.
Do I think we can make the playoffs without acquiring any big names within the next 3 years? Sure. That's not the post I responded to though.
Marshal Rochambeau
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SteveCangialosi123
Registered User
In a scenario in which multiple guys really pan out, Zacha, Larsson, and Severson would be the high end talent...with Henrique, Zajac, Cammy all being complimentary guys. I don't think it's likely that it happens, that was my entire point. The guy said we don't need to go outside the organization and I said the only way that's possible is if we hit homeruns. I've been an advocate for signing multiple guys, I obviously don't think sitting on our hands is a wise thing to do.
JimEIV
Registered User
- Feb 19, 2003
- 66,087
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How many more games do you think we could've won this season with a competent bottom 6 this season?
Forget 6, just a competent 3rd line....Not EVEN a good 3rd line, just competent.... and by competent I mean more than 2 Even strength goals between 5 people that played a couple hundred man games ALL season.
No more wins? 2 more? 4 more? We had 3 fewer wins(and ROW's) than Detriot and Philly who made the playoffs this season....THREE. 38 to 41 in both cases...Philly only had 2 more ROW's than we did.
And I put all that on Josefson and the rest of the cretins that played along side him.
Marshal Rochambeau
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Marshal Rochambeau
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We are crawling along slowly like you suggested. We'll find some good bottom sixers for next season
SteveCangialosi123
Registered User
I'm on your side here buddy haha...I think we can be a playoff team soon if not next year. I don't think it happens without at least a minor trade or signing though. My post wasn't about that though. It was responding to a guy who said we can contend without going outside the organization. And that isn't possible without Zacha becoming a star and a few other homeruns.
Of course we all share the same goal of wanting to see the Devils build a team that can win the Cup. It's just a difference in philosophy on how to get there.
I understand where the pro-tank crowd is coming from, but don't think a lot of them understand how painful that entire process is (for both the fans & players suffering through it, plus the team's bottom line) or how little that actually guarantees.
Even if you tank (and especially with the new draft lottery) it doesn't guarantee you a franchise player or top pick. Even if you do successfully tank and land a couple of top 3 draft picks and additional picks, you still need those to pan out. Then comes trying to fill out a roster, figure out how to bring back a winning culture after years of futility, and then manage the cap as these (hopefully) star players start cashing in.
Just look at what Edmonton has to show for their decade of awfulness: http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/teams/dr00005632.html
Of course, McDavid & Draisaitl are huge pickups the past two years, though not having any 2nd or 3rd round picks those years can also come back to haunt them.
Jury is still out on Nurse...Yakupov has bust written all over him & who knows if anyone else from that 2012 draft will amount to anything for Edmonton (wonder if suffering through that 74 season was still worth it for that #1 pick).
RNH is a good player, but not a franchise player. Hall was a good pickup in 2010, though the rest of their draft that year was a bust. Top 10 pick in 2009 and nothing to show for that entire draft. Eberle was a good pickup at 22 in 2008, but the rest of the draft was a complete bust. Gagner at #6 in 2007 was a swing & a miss - surely they regret not taking Voracek or Couture. Edmonton had two other 1st rounders that year that also did nothing for them, as did the rest of the draft.
Tanking helps you get some higher & maybe more picks, but you still have to make good draft picks. The Oilers not only missed on some high picks, but have been awful drafting beyond the top of the draft. If the Devils keep drafting well, make solid trades, and avoid signing players to cap-killing contracts they'll be contending before the Oilers.
dzubrus8
Registered User
- Jun 15, 2014
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I didn't say to lose intentionally, but why would you rather have the 11th pick than the 5th pick? Because you really want the Devils to win those two extra games in a losing campaign? At least with the 5th pick, you have a higher chance of success and you have a more NHL-ready player. Look at this link. Notice how these players were drafted three years ago (so they could've played a possible 246 games). In the top-10, eight have played 150+ games (Jonathan Drouin has not due to extenuating circumstances). After the 11th pick, not one player has gotten to that point.
It's not just about future potential (because the difference between 5th and 11th isn't always that great), but when you're a team that was on the bubble the entire season, you want immediate contribution from anybody you can get. And that brings me closer to the point I was trying to convey.
In my post I suggest that the Devils pick up good free agents so they can try to start contending. This team's defense is too good not to compete and Schneider has been relied on far too long without a playoff berth. This offense isn't exactly that young with Zajac and Cammalleri both in the top-six. You can build a window for yourself while also infusing young talent (sign some older FAs within reason, contend, make it to the dance, don't trade your picks). That's how most playoff teams have done it.
If you go the free agent route, by 2017, you'll have a legit top-six:
Cammalleri - Henrique - Palmieri
Boucher - Zajac - Eriksson/Hudler
People say that the team has no gamebreaker but not every team has one. Look at Detroit, Nashville, the Rangers, etc.. No 80 point players just a lot of talent.
Realistically, I think that Palmieri will be a perennial 25-30 goal scorer, putting up 55-60 points. That's first line production in today's NHL. Henrique will be at 50-55, which maybe isn't first line center worthy, but when you couple that with tough minutes and responsible two-way play, it gets the job done while we wait for Zacha. Cammalleri was on pace for 75 last year. He kinda is a gamebreaker when he's in the lineup. Points per game, Cam finished top-10.
Then you get a guy like Eriksson who has had several 65-75 point seasons and you put him on the second line and then it's not looking so bad. Zajac cemented himself as a 2nd line center with his performance this year and I think that Boucher could play there consistently. I really like what I've seen from him.
After 2016, I'm assuming that Cam goes away, and then all you need is for one player (cough cough Zacha) to be ready for a top-six role. Or maybe whomever we draft at 11 is ready. But history would show that the player we draft at 5 would be ready by then, and would likely be producing at top-nine quality (at worst).
It's not just about future potential (because the difference between 5th and 11th isn't always that great), but when you're a team that was on the bubble the entire season, you want immediate contribution from anybody you can get. And that brings me closer to the point I was trying to convey.
In my post I suggest that the Devils pick up good free agents so they can try to start contending. This team's defense is too good not to compete and Schneider has been relied on far too long without a playoff berth. This offense isn't exactly that young with Zajac and Cammalleri both in the top-six. You can build a window for yourself while also infusing young talent (sign some older FAs within reason, contend, make it to the dance, don't trade your picks). That's how most playoff teams have done it.
If you go the free agent route, by 2017, you'll have a legit top-six:
Cammalleri - Henrique - Palmieri
Boucher - Zajac - Eriksson/Hudler
People say that the team has no gamebreaker but not every team has one. Look at Detroit, Nashville, the Rangers, etc.. No 80 point players just a lot of talent.
Realistically, I think that Palmieri will be a perennial 25-30 goal scorer, putting up 55-60 points. That's first line production in today's NHL. Henrique will be at 50-55, which maybe isn't first line center worthy, but when you couple that with tough minutes and responsible two-way play, it gets the job done while we wait for Zacha. Cammalleri was on pace for 75 last year. He kinda is a gamebreaker when he's in the lineup. Points per game, Cam finished top-10.
Then you get a guy like Eriksson who has had several 65-75 point seasons and you put him on the second line and then it's not looking so bad. Zajac cemented himself as a 2nd line center with his performance this year and I think that Boucher could play there consistently. I really like what I've seen from him.
After 2016, I'm assuming that Cam goes away, and then all you need is for one player (cough cough Zacha) to be ready for a top-six role. Or maybe whomever we draft at 11 is ready. But history would show that the player we draft at 5 would be ready by then, and would likely be producing at top-nine quality (at worst).
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