News Article: Nill trying to bring Detroit success to Dallas

[Frk It]

You talk about who Holland's scouts drafted as a negative as if Yzerman's scouts also haven't drafted players who are contributing to their success.

I wasn't talking about Yzerman's scouts vs Holland's scouts.

I was just talking about what Holland inherited, and how it's a hell of a lot more than what anyone else did.

 

[Heaton]

I wasn't talking about Yzerman's scouts vs Holland's scouts.

I was just talking about what Holland inherited, and how it's a hell of a lot more than what anyone else did.

While true and as much as I want Holland to either leave or change his current MO, maintaining that success is incredibly difficult. If it weren't, teams wouldn't be so easily forgotten about.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

I wasn't talking about Yzerman's scouts vs Holland's scouts.

I was just talking about what Holland inherited, and how it's a hell of a lot more than what anyone else did.

Right, but he mentions what Yzerman inherited, not including picks in the draft which have contributed to the team's success, then you bring it up for Holland. That's the issue.

 

[Frk It]

What current GM isn't in the same situation?

A current GM that took over with 3 HOf'ers, a European scout that can find top 5 players in the 6th and 7th round, and unlimited resources in a pre-cap area?

I would say no other GM's. And none others have had the same success. Go figure.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

A current GM that took over with 3 HOf'ers, a European scout that can find top 5 players in the 6th and 7th round, and unlimited resources in a pre-cap area?

I would say no other GM's. And none others have had the same success. Go figure.

And how many people give Holland credit for his pre-cap success, anyhow?

 

[Frk It]

And how many people give Holland credit for his pre-cap success, anyhow?

I think he was a great GM (used to be) taking over the reigns at a perfect time. He was fortunate in some ways, but he still deserves a ton of credit for what he accomplished.

Fast forward to now though, and some of the fortune is turning, league has a cap, and he hasn't done anything really since 09 noteworthy. Except panic moves and going with what he's comfortable with.

Tampa has done great finding gems in the draft (no clue if that's because of Yzerman, or one of the other scouts), but I stand by my point that I would take Nill over Holland. Nill looks a lot more creative and capable in today's league.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

I think he was a great GM (used to be) taking over the reigns at a perfect time. He was fortunate in some ways, but he still deserves a ton of credit for what he accomplished.

Fast forward to now though, and some of the fortune is turning, league has a cap, and he hasn't done anything really since 09 noteworthy. Except panic moves and going with what he's comfortable with.

Tampa has done great finding gems in the draft (no clue if that's because of Yzerman, or one of the other scouts), but I stand by my point that I would take Nill over Holland. Nill looks a lot more creative and capable in today's league.

Honestly, I wouldn't be upset taking Nill just because he knows the system and seems like he has his head on his shoulders and would know what to do. Holland's case is an odd one and I don't know what has caused him to change his methods since 2009. I really don't.

I also think this bump was ridiculous considering we aren't even in December yet and Dallas could easily rebound (though their defense still is a huge issue).

 

[Frk It]

Honestly, I wouldn't be upset taking Nill just because he knows the system and seems like he has his head on his shoulders and would know what to do. Holland's case is an odd one and I don't know what has caused him to change his methods since 2009. I really don't.

I also think this bump was ridiculous considering we aren't even in December yet and Dallas could easily rebound (though their defense still is a huge issue).

Seems to me like he got complacent, the rest of the league caught up, and he doesn't want to go all in for a cup or rebuild because he's just going to pass the team off in a few years and ride off into the sunset. So we just see lateral moves every year, he stocks the cupboards for the successor, and then prays for the playoffs.

 

[Dotter]

Honestly, I wouldn't be upset taking Nill just because he knows the system and seems like he has his head on his shoulders and would know what to do. Holland's case is an odd one and I don't know what has caused him to change his methods since 2009. I really don't.

I thought back in 2009 or 2010 both Holland and Nill were documented saying [to the media] that fans should embrace a bumpy road ahead because Holland was going to try hard not trading away picks and prospects/assets as they have traded away lots of picks/prospects for the 2002 and pre-cap cup runs. I remember Holland saying after the cap was implemented 'draft picks are gold' in the post-cap world.

So Holland is doing exactly what he said he was going to do. And that is develop prospects. When was the time we've seen a youth movement like this?

What people are mad about is, while they don't want to give away Nyquist, Mrazek, Sheahan and etc... they want Holland to land top NHL talents while giving up scraps. That's just unreasonable. Nill gets praise for landing Seguin, but he gave up a lot (at the time) to get him! They gave up more than Detroit has to offer.

I also think this bump was ridiculous considering we aren't even in December yet and Dallas could easily rebound (though their defense still is a huge issue).

My bad. Sorry. There was a thread on the main board, so I thought it was worth revisiting.

 

[14ari13]

Im like the complete opposite lol. I want a super skilled super euro puck posession team. U can have toughness without the fighting.

You know, it is not that I want hockey to be a part of fighting, I want the fighting to be a part of hockey, if you know what I mean.
15 games and we yet have to see a fight. There is no Kronwall hits either.

 

[Henkka]

Tampa has done great finding gems in the draft (no clue if that's because of Yzerman, or one of the other scouts), but I stand by my point that I would take Nill over Holland. Nill looks a lot more creative and capable in today's league.

Put Holland to Dallas and he becomes creative. Just a totally different starting point there vs. Detroit.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

And Holland inherited Yzerman, Lidstrom, Fedorov, The best European scout ever that got him Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Kronwall, Franzen, Filppula, Hudler, Ericsson and an unlimited amount of money to spend.....

He inherited Yzerman, as the head of the draft he selected those guys. He also dealt with the departure of Rockstrom by hiring the greatest European scout ever.

 

[Frk It]

He inherited Yzerman, as the head of the draft he selected those guys. He also dealt with the departure of Rockstrom by hiring the greatest European scout ever.

Thought that hire was made before Holland was in charge, but nope you are right. Apparently Andersson came as a recommendation from Rockstrom, but KH was the one that he met with.

In digging through some old articles and whatnot, came across this:

Andersson calls Holland "the best scout I've ever met," saying that Holland "knows things about a player just seeing him once that it takes me three or four times to see."

I also didn't realize they the first pick the Wings made by Andersson that was solely his scoutin work didn't come til '94.

http://redwingscorner.blogspot.com/2008/05/andersson-reels-in-red-wings-big-fish.html?m=1

 

[Henkka]

Holland started as a scouting director at 1987 and we hit our home run draft at 1989. Pretty much tells the story what he inherited.

 

[BinCookin]

Holland started as a scouting director at 1987 and we hit our home run draft at 1989. Pretty much tells the story what he inherited.

Say what you will about the last 5 years of Holland. But his job security from 1987-2009 is based off of a solid track record. And Yes he was involved in hiring and drafting just about everyone we know the names of on the team now.

He might not be ballsy enough for some people, but he can scout, and does know talent when he sees it.

Overall I give him a good grade for the 20 years.

I think he has made a few mistakes in this new youth change over, but the main mistake is not trading away the youth, and that is the key to the whole thing. Maybe he has dragged his feet bringing them in. But I do enjoy his insistance that these kids have talent, and are not just trade fodder.

 

[Henkka]

Yeah, usually other organizations will fire their "buy-now get-success" GM after the "window" is gone and sign a puppet-GM to do those "horrible sell-trades" when they rebuild and stockpile talent. And then sign a "buy-now get success" -GM again when the new core in on a rise. Calgary Flames is a good example of it. They were bad and Feaster got the hate, but at same time they stockpiled great kids pretty nicely. Now they are on a new rise.

Red Wings are doing the whole operation with one GM. Period. No firesale, stockpilling young talent again like 80-90s and keeping the team at playoff push. This is definitely the hardest way and toughest challenge for any GM to do, and I think Ken Holland is the only guy who can accomplish it.

He has already won a Stanley Cup with prospect stockpillin. 97&98. He did won 2002 Cup with money and and he did win 2008 Cup when there was a cap. Any other GM hasn't been able to win multiple Cups in this kind of different circumstances and maybe he just wants to finish his career winning one more Cup with this kind hardest possible challenge.

There's so many guys hunting their first. Kenny wants to win his fifth Cup with a style.